User talk:Manacpowers

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Karate

It is already mentioned in the article that karate has a chinese origin. What you said is that it is a chinese martial art, which is not true, just as it is not true that Capioera is an african martial art. It has african origins, but is South American. Also, your edit was written extremely poorly. Also, Karate means empty hand, not chinese hand. RogueNinja_talk 15:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

English

Look, English is obviously not your first language. However, if you want to edit on the ENGLISH wikipedia, you have to edit in ENGLISH. Your edits to Song Duk-ki DONT EVEN MAKE SENSE. THAT is why I am reverting them. If you phrased them in some way that was understandable, then I could edit or not edit them based on facts. As it stands, your edits are barely understandable. RogueNinja_talk 19:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Taekwondo Mediation

JLL has requested for formal mediation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Taekwondo

Please write "agree" on the above page if you would like to participate.

I know you're new to wikipedia so PLEASE read the rules in the help section on mediation and editing rules! You lose credibility for your position when you're not familiar with the rules.melonbarmonster (talk) 19:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for mediation accepted

A Request for Mediation to which you were are a party has been accepted. You can find more information on the case subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Taekwondo. For the Mediation Committee, WjBscribe 15:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

This message delivered by MediationBot, an automated bot account operated by the Mediation Committee to perform case management.
If you have questions about this bot, please contact the Mediation Committee directly.

Input requested

Please provide a summary at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Taekwondo - thanks much. KillerChihuahua^?!? 17:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:8989587182 1.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:8989587182 1.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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TKD

Please calm down, Mediators to not accept or reject edits, They are their to facilitate a discussion and help the involved editors form a consensus version, as the mediation stalled I was trying to do that on the talk page. My initial edits were to clean the article up then to attempt to merge your and JJL's versions into one that reflects both views, as an encyclopaedia wiki should report both sides of the argument as neither is definitively correct. Please try to keep calm as while you are obviously passionate abut this article you cannot shout down people you need to talk to them. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 10:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Sources

According to Modern TKD history from world tkd headquarters site,, the Japanese colonial government totally prohibited all folkloric games including takkyon in the process of suppressing the Korean people. The martial art Taekkyondo(Taekwondo)had been secretly handed down only by the masters of the art until the liberation of the country in 1945. Song Duk-ki, one of the then masters, is still alive with the age of over 80 and testifies that his master was Im Ho who was reputed for his excellent skills of Taekkyondo, "jumping over the walls and running through the wood just like a tiger." At that time 14 terms of techniques were used, representing 5 kicking patterns, 4 hand techniques, 3 pushing-down-the-heel patterns, one(1) turning-over kick pattern and 1 technique of downing-the-whole-body. Also noteworthy is the use the term "poom" which signified a face-to-face stance preparing for a fight. The masters of Taekkyondo were also under constant threat of imprisonment, which resulted in an eventual of Taekkyondo as popular games. Upon liberation of Korea from the Japanese colonial rule after world war II , the Korean people began recovering the thought of self-reliance and the traditional folkloric games which resumed their popularity. Song Duk-ki, afore-mentioned master of Taekkyondo, presented a demonstration of the martial art before the first Republic of Korea President Syngman Rhee on the occasion of the latter's birthday anniversary, thus clearly distinguishing Taekwondo from the Japanese karate. Martial art experts began opening their Taekwondo gymnasia all over the country and after the end of Korean war (1950-1953) Taekwondo was popularized among the dan-grade black-belters within the country, also dispatching about 2,000 Taekwondo masters to more than 100 countries for foreigners' training. [1]

This is Widely Accepted OFFICIAL information of TKD. However, JJL's edit is making TKD is 'purely karate' from extrimist sources. this is POV troll. again, by the WP:RS, Articles should not be based primarily on extremist sources.

According to THE HISTORY OF TAEKWONDO By Glen R. Morris, A few of the earlier martial arts styles that contributed to Taekwondo are: T'ang-su, Taek Kyon, also known as Subak, Tae Kwon, Kwonpup and Tae Kwonpup. There are also influences from Judo, Karate, and Kung-fu. 1910 the Japanese invaded Korea and occupied the country for 36 years. To control Korea's patriotism, the Japanese banned the practice of all military arts, Korean language and even burned all books written in Korea. This ban was responsible for renewed interest in Subak. Many Koreans organized themselves into underground groups and practiced the martial arts in remote Buddhist temples. Other people left Korea to study the martial arts in other countries like China and Japan. In 1943 Judo, Karate and Kung-fu were officially introduced to the Korean residents and the martial arts regained popularity. In 1945 Korea was liberated. In the last few years before liberation, there were many different variations of Subak/Taek Kyon in Korea. This was due to all of the other martial arts influence on it.The first Taekwondo school (Kwan) was started in Yong Chun, Seoul, Korea in 1945. Many different school were opened from 1945 through 1960. Each school claimed to teach the traditional Korean martial art, but each school emphasized a different aspect of Taek Kyon/Subak. This caused different names to emerge from each system, some of them were: Soo Bahk Do, Kwon Bop, Kong Soo Do, Tae Soo Do and Kang Soo Do.[2]

According to Academic journal of the Taekwondo, The papers regarding Takwondo(TKD) history have been written in two directions; One, emphasizing its root is coming from andent martial arts in the Three Kingdom era. Two, describing it`s derived from Karate only. Some of grand masters of 5 do-jang(道場, Taekwondo Gymnasium)s, which is unified as TKD afterwards, trained Karate during their stay in Japan as students. And the others trained martial arts in Manchuria Therefore it can`t be described as TKD is developed by influence of Karate only. And considering the fact that the main curriculum of those five do-jangs was centered on Kicking technique originate from Korean folk, so we know that the current TKD seems to be affected by Korean traditional martial arts. [3]

A Study on Shaping of the Taekwondo, In Uk Heo

• Name : A Study on Shaping of the Taekwondo
• Author : In Uk Heo
• Date : 2004
• Publisher : Korea Society for History of Physical Education, Sport, and Dance Homepage
• Publishing Info : Academic Journal of physical education. Vol.9, 79 page
• Keyword : Taekwondo

According to The Comparative Study of the Techniques of Taekwondo and Taekkyon, This thesis is to compare the techniques of Taekwondo with those of Taekkyon, the old version of Taekwondo. As the results show, their techniques are much the same except for patterns which Taekwondo imported the concept itself from Japanese Karate(and Kungfu), a then modernized oriental martial art in its administrational system and technique system under the influence of western sports at the early of 20th century. This result shows the two martial arts, Taekwondo and Taekkyon, share the same origin which dates back over a thousand years to the Three Kingdoms Period. Many misunderstand oriental martial arts have had solid forms in their training systems for thousands of years. However, actually, before Asian countries began to modernize themselves to accomodate themselves to the challenge of western powers' thrust to them, the systems were totally different from what we see today. There were no dan-degree system and "Kan", an administrational system and training space and even no formal system of teachers' Qualification. These things were introduced only after their countries' modernization under the influence of western sports' system. This is why modem Taekwondo, a modernized version of Taekkyon, is different from Taekkyon in some aspects. But, their essential techniques are still basically same. Especially, their foot skills are exactly same which nobody can tell the differences.[4]

their essential techniques are still basically same. Especially, their foot skills are exactly same which nobody can tell the differences.

I think these 3 sources are more moderate than JJL and Me. These 3 source do not say, TKD is purely from Korean tekkyon. root of TKD is tekkyon. but kungfu, karate... etc... also influenced to TKD.(like grade system from karate) Manacpowers (talk) 04:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

According to TAEKWONDO AND IT’S ECONOMICAL IMPACT by Kimmo Rauhala.(Professor of University of Jyväskylä, Department of social sciences of sport, Finland) In Korea, Taekwondo began as a defense martial art called "Subak" or "Taekkyon," and developed as a way of training body and mind in the ancient kingdom of Koguryo, under the name of "Sunbae." Taekwondo relies predominantly on kicking techniques. As much as 70% of the techniques in Taekwondo are kicks. Second, the kicking techniques are performed in uniquely quick, snapping manner. This kind of quickness is not found in other systems. [5]

According to Comparing Styles of Taekwondo, Taekkyon and Karate On this page, we compare styles of Taekwondo, Taekkyon and Karate in their Kyorugi(sparring). In this comparison, we can see the clear and distinct similarity of Taekwondo and Taekkyon(the old style of Taekwondo). As far as the essence of martial arts is the technical system of attack and diffence, sparring style of each martial arts will show directly the similarities of martial arts. This is why we compare Kyorugi(sparring) style of those martial arts. [6](video)

According to interviews with General Choi., Young Choi’s father sent him to study calligraphy under one of the most famous teachers in Korea, Mr. Han II Dong. Han, in addition to his skills as a calligrapher, was also a master of Taek Kyon, the ancient Korean art of foot fighting. The teacher, concerned over the frail condition of his new student, began teaching him the rigorous exercises of Taek Kyon to help build up his body.[7](video)

This thesis is about the problems related to how to define the traditional martial arts in Korea and to the views denying the traditionality and legitimacy of Taekwondo as a traditional martial art with the meaning of christening Taekwondo analyzed. The meaning of christening Taekwondo meant not only integration of all martial arts existing in Korea at that time but also a social consensus about what the traditional martial arts meant, which made it possible for Taekwondo to be a legitimate heir of Korean traditional martial arts and have been globalized as a Korean traditional martial art. Therefore, to deny Taekwondo to be a traditional martial art is much the same as denying Korean martial arts’ legitimacy and traditionality and the historical facts, its globalization and the subsequent contribution to Korea’s national interest. Although Taekwondo had been partly influenced by Chinese and Japanese’s martial arts due to thier cultual intimacy with Korea and, sometimes, political situations, those founders of early Taekwondo administrational bodies practiced Taekyyon, the old version of Taekwondo, and, based on this techniques, they set up the bodies and christened the name of Taekwondo after the Taekyyon. This means Taekwondo is a legitimate heir of Korea’s traditional martial art, Taekyyon, both from substantial stand point and from spiritual standpoint. This christening was recognized both by government, as it awarded Taekwondo the title of "national technique", and society in general, as it has been accepted so in Korean and international society. Therefore, the christening of Taekwondo has a tremendously important meaning in its history.[8]

• Title : An Analysis on the various views of Taekwondo History
• Authors : Jung Kun-Pyo, Lee Kang-Koo
• Type of document : Academic Journal
• Publisher : Institution of Physical science, Korea
• Date : 2007.11
• Publishing Info : Journal of Physical science, Korea pp. 3~12 (10 pages)

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• Song Moo Kwan - founded March 11, 1944 by Ro, Byung Jick, who had studied Shotokan (Song Do Kwan) karate along with Chung Do Kwan founder Lee, Won Kyuk under Gichin Funakoshi in Japan. In the 1960's Ro began studying Hapkido in 1963 and Northern Shaolin Kung Fu in 1967. He subsequently became an instructor to the Korean Army and one of Korea's Taekwondo champions. He trained Karate, Hapkido, Kumdo and Northern Shaolin Kung Fu. later he created his art Tang Soo Do. [9]
• Chung Do Kwan - founded in 1944 by Lee, Won Kyuk. He had studied Taekkyon in An Gup Dong(Seoul), He also studied Karate in Okinawa, Kung Fu centers in Henan and Shanghai in China, and other.[10]
• Moo Duk Kwan - founded after 1946 by Hwang Kee. Kee studied Tai Chi and some types of Kung Fu with Yang Kuk Jin in China. Kee claims he learned the philosophy of Okinawan Karate from Gichin Funakoshi's books. His first two attempts at running a school of Hwa Soo Do were unsuccessful. He then trained with Won Kyuk Lee at the Chung Do Kwan, gaining the equivalent of a green belt. Lee claims Kee was his student, but Kee disputes Lee's claim, and acknowledges only Yang Kuk Jin as his teacher. In 1957, Kee made a discovery of Soo Bahk, a true Korean martial art, from Muye Dobo Tongji. Kee developed the Soo Bahk system to be studied through the Moo Duk Kwan. He chose the name Soo Bahk Do, a derivative of Soo Bahk Ki, hand striking technique, and Soo Bahk Hee, hand striking dance, which were detailed in the Muye Dobo Tongji. In 1960, the Korean Soo Bahk Do Association was incorporated and officially registered with the Korean government as the traditional Korean martial art. The following year, the Moo Duk Kwan discipline was recognized internationally for the first time. [11]

According to Official Homepage of Song Moo Kwan, In the 1960's Grand Master Ro distinguished himself by becoming one of the youngest to reach 4th Dan Black Belt at the time. Pursuing his interest in the traditional martial arts, he began studying Hapkido in 1963 and Northern Shaolin Kung Fu in 1967. He subsequently became an instructor to the Korean Army and one of Korea's Taekwondo champions. In 1976 he moved to the United States where he founded and developed the North American Taekwondo Federation. Like his father before him, he too is a pioneer. He conceived and pursued his own vision and extending the spirit and vision of Song Moo Kwan beyond Taekwondo to Hapkido, Kumdo and Northern Shaolin Kung Fu.[12]

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According to Interview with Lee, Won Kyuk who Chung Do Kwan founder, TKDT: Korean children today start to learn Tae Kwon Do as a form of physical education in the grade school. You grew up during the period of Japanese occupation of Korea when martial arts were forbidden to Koreans. How did you become involved in the martial arts ? W .K. Lee: In the old days, martial arts training was started during the teen years or early twenties. I had an interest in the martial arts as a young man. When I was young, I visited An Gup Dong, a street in Seoul where I met a Mr. Kim. He seemed very old to me then, but he was only in his sixties. He said that about 80 years earlier (prior to the Japanese occupation), there were three traditional Korean fighting styles called Tae Kyon(Taekkyon) taught inside Chang Chung Dong Park in the city. The training went on for some time, but there were several groups or gangs whose members were misusing the martial arts, so the government put a stop to the training. The Korean Cultural Ministry has an illustrated history of Tae Kyon. [...]As a young man, I visited martial arts centers including the birthplace of Karate in Okinawa, Kung Fu centers in Henan and Shanghai in China, and other places.[13]

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According to official website of Moo Duk Kwan, The history of the Moo Duk Kwan is as unique as the art itself. Founded in Korea in 1945 by Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee, Moo Duk Kwan literally means institute of martial virtue Creating the art was not a simple process; it would be many years between our Founder’s first exposure to martial arts and the actual birth of the Moo Duk Kwan. In 1921, around age seven, Kwan Jang Nim Kee first witnessed the execution of a martial art(Taekkyon). While attending the national May festival, he encountered a group of seven or eight men fighting one man, who successfully managed to evade and defeat his attackers. Impressed by the man’s performance, he followed him home and after observing his training over a period of time, asked to be taught the techniques he witnessed. The man refused because of his young age. However, this did not end the Kwan Jang Nim’s interest, he continued to observe the man training from afar, and imitated what he saw. After graduating high school in 1935, the Kwan Jang Nim began work for the railroad in Manchuria. The next year, he was introduced to a Chinese master, Master Yang. At that point, our Founder was strictly self-taught, and hoped this introduction would provide an opening for formal training. The Kwan Jang Nim asked to become Master Yang’s student, and after persisting in his request, was granted permission to train under him. A year later, he returned to Korea, and hoped to have the opportunity to continue training and possibly teach. Unfortunately, the country was occupied by the Japanese, and he was not allowed to pursue his interest in the martial arts. In 1939, he began work for the Cho Sun Railway Bureau. This position allowed him access to a library where he began reading about philosophy and Okinawan Karate. For the next several years he traveled and studied developing his maturity as a martial artist. At the conclusion of World War II, his dream of dedicating himself solely to martial arts was realized when he created the Moo Duk Kwan on Nov. 9, 1945. The Moo Duk Kwan is one of five original key styles of martial arts in Korea. The Kwan Jang Nim first named his martial art Hwa Soo Do, art of the flower hand. He attracted and lost several classes of students within the first year due to lack of public recognition. In 1947, he reevaluated the future of the Moo Duk Kwan after realizing the strength of Japanese influence on Korean culture. He decided to integrate the art of Tang Soo Do into the Hwa Soo Do discipline as it was a recognizable term to the general public. Before the beginning of the Korean War in 1950, the first four Dan students were recognized. This was the beginning of the Dan Bon system which is unique to Moo Duk Kwan practitioners. Although the Korean War caused many difficulties, the art endured and strengthened, allowing the Kwan Jang Nim to continue his scientific development of a unique system of techniques emphasizing use of the hip In 1957, the Kwan Jang Nim made a significant discovery--a book, titled, Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. This volume discussed “Soo Bahk,” a truly Korean martial art. As a result of this discovery, he diligently devoted himself to studying this manual. Through his efforts, Soo Bahk was reborn, and the Kwan Jang Nim developed the Soo Bahk system to be studied through the Moo Duk Kwan as a living art, connecting practitioners with a long and proud heritage. He chose the name Soo Bahk Do, a derivative of Soo Bahk Ki, hand striking technique, and Soo Bahk Hee, hand striking dance, which were detailed in the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji. Do was chosen based on his belief that Soo Bahk should teach the Moo Do philosophy of stopping inner and outer conflict In 1960, the Korean Soo Bahk Do Association was incorporated and officially registered with the Korean government as the traditional Korean martial art. The following year, the Moo Duk Kwan discipline was recognized internationally for the first time. This was a golden time for the Moo Duk Kwan, for it was receiving respect and recognition from the general public nationally, and was making significant progress toward the Kwan Jang Nim’s goal of improving human relationships through the martial arts at an international level. The Moo Duk Kwan in Korea published 8 consecutive newsletters form September, 1960 - April 1961. The newsletters indicate the strength and organization of the Moo Duk Kwan just prior to the military Coup. View slide Show of Newsletters [14]

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According to BRIEF HISTORY OF TAE KWON DO (Published on May 10, 2005, Long Beach Press-Telegram (CA)), TAE KWON DO is a 2,000-year-old form of martial arts that originated in Korea. Early Koreans (and other Asian nations) developed unique martial arts for unarmed self-defense to complement their skills with weapons. The first recorded evidence of tae kwon do, according to the World Taekwondo Federation Web site, is a mural painting found in a tomb from the Koguryu kingdom (37 B.C. to A.D. 66) depicting figures practicing martial arts techniques. In later ancient times, the warrior class was [15]

"Write for us During the Japanese occupation, 1910 – 1945, the art was banned and nearly died out. Fortunately one very old master, named Song Duk-Ki, survived. He is personally credited with having saved the art, continuing to teach students, until his death, at age 96, in 1987. In recent years, Taekkyon has enjoyed a resurgence, with national competitions and Taekkyon demonstrations at national festivals. The university students I interviewed said that they enjoyed practicing Taekkyon because they could enjoy all of the physical and health benefits of martial arts, without getting injured. One friend said, “Taekkyon is part of our cultural heritage. By practicing, I am helping to keep our history alive.”

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/93/art_Korea_Martial_Art.html

there is no one say, taekkyon was totally vanished. so This is not dispute by anybody.

Others

According to The Origins and Popularity of the Martial Arts(by Pat Zukeran), The father of the Asian martial arts, according to the most popular tradition, was an Indian Buddhist monk named Bodhidharma who arrived in China in the late fifth century A.D. Settling in a monastery in the Songshan Mountains located in the Kingdom of Wei, he developed a series of mind-body exercises designed to improve the health of the monks and assist them in meditation. Based on the movements of different real and mythological animals, and incorporating concepts from Taoism and Zen Buddhism, Bodhidharma taught a style of combat known as Shao-lin gung fu. Gradually, Shao-lin gung fu migrated from the temples to the Chinese populace. It was adapted and refined as it spread across the country and, eventually, around the world. [...] The hard arts include certain forms of Chinese kung fu and Shao Lin boxing. The Japanese arts were adapted from Chinese kung fu. They include Ju-jitsu, Judo, Karate, Ninjitsu, and Kendo. Korean martial arts include Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do [16]

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According to THE ULTIMATE MARTIAL ARTIST (by Steve S.Long ), Tang Soo Do (“China hand method”) is a Korean martial art which combines traditional Korean kickswith some Japanese maneuvers. It was originally called Soo Bahk Do. After the Japanese occupation of Korea in the first decade of the 20th century, many Soo Bahk Do masters fled their homeland; while they were in exile they studied Chinese and Japanesefighting systems, including Aikido and Jujutsu, andadded some of their techniques to the Soo Bahk Dorepertoire. In 1945 the style’s name was changed byits Grandmaster, Hwang Kee.Tang Soo Do uses many stances and techniqueswhich are intended to be deceptive. For example, onehand will be hidden behind the other so that it can beused for a surprise attack, or any one of several kicksmight be launched from the same basic stance, makingit difficult to determine which one will actually beused. The attack maneuvers emphasize kicks, includingflying kicks.Traditionally, Tang Soo Do does not teach[17]

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According to The Origins and Popularity of the Martial Arts(by Pat Zukeran), The father of the Asian martial arts, according to the most popular tradition, was an Indian Buddhist monk named Bodhidharma who arrived in China in the late fifth century A.D. Settling in a monastery in the Songshan Mountains located in the Kingdom of Wei, he developed a series of mind-body exercises designed to improve the health of the monks and assist them in meditation. Based on the movements of different real and mythological animals, and incorporating concepts from Taoism and Zen Buddhism, Bodhidharma taught a style of combat known as Shao-lin gung fu. Gradually, Shao-lin gung fu migrated from the temples to the Chinese populace. It was adapted and refined as it spread across the country and, eventually, around the world. [...] The hard arts include certain forms of Chinese kung fu and Shao Lin boxing. The Japanese arts were adapted from Chinese kung fu. They include Ju-jitsu, Judo, Karate, Ninjitsu, and Kendo. Korean martial arts include Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do [18]

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According to THE ULTIMATE MARTIAL ARTIST (by Steve S.Long ), Karate was developed from the same ancient traditionsthat led to the development of Kung Fu. By thefifth century AD, on the Okinawa Islands, a weaponlesscombat system called te (“hand”) had developed.Later, when the teachings of the Shaolin Temple inChina were carried to Okinawa, some of the Shaolintechniques were infused with the te art.During the 15th century, the Japanese who occupiedOkinawa forbade the natives to carry arms andte began to flourish as an art form; at the time, it wentby several names, including te and karate (a termwhich originally meant “China hand,” but which inthe 20th century was redefined to mean “emptyhand”).In 1905, an Okinawan instructor named GichinFunakoshi introduced Okinawa-te to Japan, teachingit in public schools. At that time, its name wasformalized as Karate. After World War II, Americanservicemen stationed in Japan learned the art, whichhelped to spread it worldwide. [19]

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According to Tang soo do(UK) history, The exact origin of Tang Soo Do, as well as karate in general, is obscure. However, there are many equally beautiful theories. An argument continues to rage about the origin of both weapon using and weaponless fighting techniques. Some Japanese karate experts insist that the art is of Japanese origin; some say it came from Okinawa; others say it began in China and spread from there. Although there are various theories and views explaining it's history in Korea, we will consider the Moo Duk Kwan's assertion as described in Moo Duk Kwan's major text book Soo Bahk Do Dae Kam, written by Grand Master Hwang Kee, president. It is a well-known theory, mainly of Japanese stylists, that according to popular legend the Indian Zen priest Dahlma (called Daruma in Japan) is credited with it's birth in the year 517 AD in China. From China it found its way to Okinawa and subsequently was modified and developed into many styles.In his book, Soo Bahk Do Dae Kam, Grand Master Hwang Kee strongly rejects the theory that the priest Dahlma is the founder of the martial arts. Citing the Muye Dobo Tong Ji (a martial arts history book written in the Yi dynasty in 1790). He says there was a record of Tang Soo Do-like martial art approximately two thousand years before Dahlma the monk. [...]In 36 years of Japanese occupancy, the Japanese introduced their so called Karate to Korea, however their restriction of Korean people to teaching their karate or training did not influence at all the Korean martial field. But some people may still think Korean karate was introduced by Japan. From the above history, it is a very wrong theory and concept. [20]

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According to Tang soo do(UK) official site, The martial art of Tang Soo Do is relatively modern. However, its basis, the Korean art of Soo Bahk Do, dates back many centuries. Tang Soo Do is a composite style, being 60% Soo Bahk Do, 30% northern Chinese and 10% southern Chinese kicking techniques, for which Tang Soo Do is unsurpassed, are based on Soo Bahk. Soo Bahk was first developed during the Shilla Dynasty (57BC-935 AD), but enjoyed its flowering during the Koryo Dynasty (918-1392 AD). [21]

Hapkido

I appreciate your effort to Hapkido Martial arts article. It is very good you learned hapkido. i read various informations of Hapkido. I just point out that we should report that these views exist. According to Official Homepage of Hapkido say, Their root is possibly China origin. Choi learned aikido. However, It is unclear Choi really studied Daito-ryu. Becauese Daito-ryu faimily officialy denied this. Nowdays Hapkido is not direct link with aikido. Because it was already modified by various instrutors.(eg. Ji han Jae) In korea, Hapkido is refer to various integrated martial art. for example, any martial arts founder said, My art is "(????) Hapkido".(even it is no relation with hapkido and aikido) This hapkido name is very common name in s.korea. This "(????) Hapkido" word used Like as "Not TKD, However, Martial arts" "any combatant sports" noun itself. Not every Hapkido is Daito-ryu. so, I suggest that all "(???) Hapkido" named martial arts in s.korea are not link with Daito-Ryu. so, i try to refer to Hapkido is Various Martial arts. and it is not direct link with Daito-Ryu. I know Choi Yong Sul learned Aikido. But Nowdays Hapkido is not direct link with Daitoryu. (even Daitoryu admit this) GongKwon Yusul founder, when he founded this martial arts, He advertised like a "Choi's Hapkido". Because, His martial art was a unacquainted martial art. but Hapkido is well known Martial arts brand, so He advertised like His art is Hapkido. However, This martial arts is a definitely not hapkido. Later, Founder Changed name as a GongKwon Yusul. I just point out 2 points. Modern Hapkido is not direct link from Daito-ryu. Hakido made by Korean. Founder learned Aikido. There is evidence that people believe Hapkido invented in india or China, Shilla. there are sources that people believe this, so the fact that they exist should be included. Manacpowers (talk) 01:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, sorry to butt in, but I just want to leave my small input here. I know almost nothing about hapkido and akido (well any martial arts too). However, I checked a Korean version of Encyclopedia Britannica and other encyclopedia, the two of which say 合氣道 originated in Indian about 3000 years ago and spread to China with Buddhism by Buddhist monks. It was said that Bodhidharma advocated martial arts of Shaolin Monastery (maybe 6th century?) and in the atmosphere, 合氣道 was practiced in Cihna. Therefore the India origin theory is not his (Manacpowers) POV. However, the encycolopedias regard hapkido and akido as the same thing handed down from China and India. I don't know how correct the general information would be. The info about 合氣道 in Korean --Caspian blue (talk) 02:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is the source from Japanese Goverment site.

http://www.net.pref.aomori.jp/misawa/english/trad_arts.html#aikido (Homepage of Misawa City, Goverment site)

• Aikido

Aikido finds its origin in ancient China, but the concept of “ki” is connected with Shinto and has a peculiarly Japanese development. A martial art without weapons, Aikido makes it possible to overwhelm and throw opponents by grasping and twisting their hands, feet or joints, without resorting so much to strength. It’s effective for one’s spiritual cultivation and is practiced to maintain good health as well.Manacpowers (talk) 05:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

http://www.aikidojournal.com/bibliography_details?id=158

• Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts - Volume 1

Subtitled "Its Fundamental Relations", this first in a two-volume set attempts to draw parallels in the fundamentals between the ancient arts of Kung-Fu, and the more modern art of Aikido. There is much discussion of origin and background, and the book is well illustrated.

Manacpowers (talk) 05:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

This controversy exist, here is the source.

http://dojorat.blogspot.com/2007/03/is-aikido-of-chinese-origin.html

There is an ongoing debate (What? debate in the Martial Arts community??) as to if Aikido Master Ueshiba was influenced by the circular Chinese arts such as Bagua or elements within the Tai Chi Chuan forms. They certainly share the spiraling and opening/closing, Yin/Yang feel of those arts. Furthermore, Chin-na joint locking may predate the Japanese systems. This is a small part of a very well researched article by Ellis Amdur at "Aikido Journal". The entire series of articles, some with lineage that is clearly over my head- ("Inside Aikido") can be found at http://www.aikidojournal.com/?author=8

Amdur writes:

However, Ueshiba did observe Chinese martial arts. Takeda Hiroshi studied Ruyi Tongbei ch'uan from He Zhenfang in the 1920's and 1930's. Takeda published the first book on Tongbei ch'uan in 1936. Tongbei is a martial system that uses a very flexible upper body and whipping techniques with the arms, as if there is an axle from one shoulder to the other. Although I do not know if this is true in Takeda’s line, some Tongbei ch’uan traditions have staff and/or spear training with fajin practice as part of their system. According to the following website,

"Interestingly, although the content in certain portions of the book are very clear, other parts are very puzzling and strange. Many believe the reason is that Master He did not really want to teach Takeda, and so he diverted the teaching on purpose. There is speculation that this happened because of the political situation between China and Japan at that time." In any event, Takeda stated in an interview in a Japanese martial arts magazine in the late 1980’s, that his home became a center, not only for practitioners of Chinese martial arts, but also for visiting Japanese martial artists, and among them was Ueshiba Morihei, who visited him in 1936. According to Okumura Shigenobu, “Yes, he went to Peking too. He saw various Chinese martial arts. There are good martial arts in China. Ueshiba sensei was impressed by them.” Let me be very clear here. I am not saying that I believe that Ueshiba studied under Takeda Hiroshi - or anybody else in Beijing. But it is possible that, in his visit to Beijing, that he observed such training either by Takeda Hiroshi or by some of his other compadres, and saw something of value that he could "steal." Remember, Ueshiba was the man of whom Sugino Yoshio stated that he could observe something once and see exactly what they were doing. In sum, what I am saying here is that the type of force-building and expression that I am loosely referring to as “fajin,” may have been something that Ueshiba did observe in China and integrate in his own way into his art — either as something new or as a augmentation or variation to what he had already learned. Manacpowers (talk) 05:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

TKD 3

Please have a look at Aikido or Ban Ki-moon for how many citations an article may need to be considered 'complete' --Nate1481(^t/_c) 08:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Insulting someone's English is uncivil and is something I have never mentioned despite repeated grammatically poor additions and comments from yourself, and actually you are completly wrong. I use British English and while this may be incorrect for this article as it is largely written in American English it is not incorrect, so please do not complain about mine with a comment :"OMG. too many 'citaion needed' tags. article page is dirty. even you already know, controvercy exist(JJL make this). there is no need fact checking. and your english is not good, too."

Lets see:

• • No capital letters after full stops; completely wrong.
  • "Citation" spelt incorrectly.
  • "Controversy" spelt incorrectly.
  • No capital on the Proper noun 'English'
  • Sentence structure and punctuation is abysmal if not absent completely
  • Blasphemy is extremely impolite

If you had written:

"You have added too many 'citation needed' tags. The article page is dirty, even you already know that a controversy exist (and that JJL created it). There is no need for fact checking. In addition your English is not good "

You might have had a point. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 08:31, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Please could you clarify who "taekkyon" is? I was under the impression it was a martial art not a person or organisation. So how can it state anything? --Nate1481(^t/_c) 08:42, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Please specify more clearly then, as just saying 'taekkyon' dose not convey sufficient meaning. I stated the Kukkiwon, as that is where the source comes from. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 08:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Korean martial arts

I realize you have good intentions in what you are doing, but I would encourage you to take more care with your edits, and (especially at this time) to avoid making major edits to a whole range of articles about the Korean martial arts. Until we get the situation somewhat resolved on the taekwondo article, pushing the same issue on a variety of other articles as well will not help. Without intending to be in any way unkind or unwelcoming, I also have to say that your edits often have incorrect grammar and other issues. I realize that English is not your primary language and that this is difficult; I would just encourage you, for this reason also, to take more care with your edits (which often require cleanup). Thank you very much, however, for your efforts; I hope you will accept this statement in the spirit in which it is offered. Omnedon (talk) 11:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

i accept your concern. I avoid making major edits to a whole range of articles. Manacpowers (talk) 11:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Hapkido

I appreciate the zeal with which you are approaching this article but I think you should show a bit more restraint in your major revisions.

Firstly, I suspect that English is not your first language and perhaps this has led some misunderstandings in some the things printed here.

Secondly, I have to think that the sources you are using for your changes in this cases are not the more reliable ones. As you mentioned people like Draeger are experts on the subjects they wrote about whereas things like Encyclopedia Brittanica are hardly written by experts in the martial arts. ( I would argue that 'historians' are people who write history books and many of Draeger's works such as "The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan" would clearly qualify and certainly were accepted by universities such as the University of Hawaii which he developed the work for. There are arguements against this also but that is another subject.)

I've been training in hapkido for the past 23 years under senior teachers in the KHF, have lived in trained in Korea and Japan in hapkido and Daito-ryu, have interviewed and published articles with senior teachers of the art and have never heard most of the claims you are making in your changes.

Connections between the art created Ueshiba Morihei and India? Claims are made about the roots of ancient asian martial arts being transmitted from India along with Buddhism but not aikido or its parent art Daito-ryu. Good sources of information on this subject would be many of the works published by Aikido Journal, formally Aiki News. There articles there with the founder's son, senior aikidoka and the inheritors of the Daito-ryu traditions.

For information on hapkido a good source would be the works of He-Young Kimm, himself a senior teacher of hapkido, a university professor in Lousianna, and a person who interviewed all of Choi's key students. Choi, lived in japan from 1911 to 1945, and is on record as saying he trained Daito-ryu or Sokaku Takeda. Some people say he studied under other students of Sokaku rather than directly but he never claimed to have studied traditional arts of Korea. Many claimed he always referred to his own art as 'yawara' and generic Japanese term for jujutsu.

I don't wish to get into a big dialogue on this subject I just wanted to explain why I and others will be reverting some of the changes you are making in the hapkido article.--Mateo2006 (talk) 21:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Why don't we make a separate section entitled "other views" rather than changing the body of the article that others have put together?--Mateo2006 (talk) 01:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Leave me alone

This is my last response to you I have got incredibly fed-up with your stubborn attitude and (creative?) misunderstanding of what other people have written I have referred this to mediation and will only be making comments there, I explicitly put that I did not think a block was yet justified but the repeat post was as their had been no comments for 24 hours. Could YOU try reading some of the policies you cite? As in many instnances you obviously have not or you are ignoring them, in much the same way as you treat peoples comments, glance at them and assume what they have said. Any further comment from you on my talk page will be deleted unread. Goodbye. --Nate1481(^t/_c) 16:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The second meditation

It is your free will over whether you participate in the second meditation or not, but you should remind that it is open for you and JJL. The rest of people are meditating your dispute with JJL, so your "disagreed" is very disappointing and not helpful. It is viewed in my eye that you would not accept any "compromise" between people. Once a consensus would build up, you could not change the article to your preferred version. The meditation can proceed without you. Then, you're no position to complain about the future situation for yourself. You need to understand WP:CONSENSUS and WP:DR. If you can not edit in the boundaries, your edits and lengthy and intelligible comments to other people's talk pages are all nuisance. --Caspian blue (talk) 13:26, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

actually, It seems like a TKD article is already done. later, i will attach more sources links to TKD article. history section is no more change. and other articles are working in each discussion page. why we need mediation process? i already accept compromised edit. only JJL want change current edit. Manacpowers (talk) 13:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of your unwillingness to participate in the meditation, the other wants it. Besides, you're in a truce, which means the compromised version could not be remains forever. The meditation procedure could ensure compromise officially and each point of view is documented and meditated.--Caspian blue (talk) 13:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

physically impossible. mediation of TKD article is already done. tommorow, i go to other province. i will stay there for one month. Manacpowers (talk) 13:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)