User talk:HJ Mitchell

Hello and welcome to my talk page! If you have a question, ask me. If I know the answer, I'll tell you; if I don't, I'll find out (or one of my talk-page stalkers might know!), then we'll both have learnt something!

Admins: If one of my admin actions is clearly a mistake or is actively harming the encyclopaedia, please reverse it. Don't wait for me if I'm not around or the case is obvious.

A list of archives of this talk page is here. Those in Roman numerals come first chronologically

This talk page is archived regularly by a bot so I can focus on the freshest discussions. If your thread was archived but you had more to say, feel free to rescue it from the archive.

Topic ban

Will you please lift the topic ban? Thanks, Ashtul (talk) 10:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

@Ashtul: If you agree to keep a respectful distance from Nishidani, and preferably stick to articles rather than enforcement requests etc, yes I'll lift the topic ban. I'd also suggest you're very careful about sticking to the 1RR. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:43, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing. Ashtul (talk) 14:07, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Then we have a deal. I'll update the log. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:23, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Just saw this. Here Ashtul complains about @Nishidani: removing a communal settlement (note: it is a redirection to communal settlement (Israel) from an Israeli settlement on the West Bank. (As I´m sure you know: the international community consider the Israeli settlements on the West Bank as illegal, while it does not consider settlements in pre-1967 Israel as illegal.)

The first thing Ashtul then does (after his ban) is to add the same redir to communal settlement (Israel) to a lot of other Israeli settlement on the West Bank, here and here on Avnei Hefetz, same on Beit Hagai and Alon Shvut. What can I say; it seems to me that Ashtuls editing is very much, eh, "inspired" by Nishidani. That is: doing exactly the opposite of what Nishidani is doing. Huldra (talk) 22:39, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I have invited them to a discussion here which they have failed to actively participate in and changed the lead in include "and the west bank". IMHO, I'm very accommodating and trying to find middle ground. Ashtul (talk) 17:46, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't going to make an issue of this. For one, due to the poor content of the Community Settlement page, citing it as related to Israel, I made the wrong call. I examined the sources (the page was unsourced), rewrote that page, and adjusted my views to reflect what sources say. Alon Shvut is defined as such a community (though it didn't begin as one), and on this Ashtul was correct, as was User:Number57. This is how we do things.

However, Ashtul hasn't changed or learnt anything. Take two examples.

(1) massive revert of sourced information

That took more than an hour to write up, after reading through dozens of pages, and providing links to the academic works. With a simple press of the button, Ashtul cancelled eminently reliable sources commenting specifically on the topic. It's tantamount to vandalism.

(2) the same edit removed all the tags, on a page which had been drafted off the top of someone's head, and which still has large sections unsourced. There is no congruent justification for either the removal of high quality sources, nor the citation tags on the talk page.

(3). He is canvassing.

Editors are supposed to build pages, not pick round to defend a POV, using reverts, empty edit summaries based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT, and probing for tagteam allies (Cptono of course is not at fault here).Nishidani (talk) 11:30, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

First of all, Nishidani have followed me to Community settlement (Israel) page and to Barkan Industrial Park, not the other way around.

A problem was raised the definition doesn't mention the West Bank (though the article itself does) and I accommodated it by adding the text. Then a consensus was built pretty quickly over the exact phrasing.

As per my revert, I explained it in length. I started to edit out material that was connect explicitly to West-Bank-Settlements rather that Community-Settlements (in both israel and west bank) which are the topic of the article. Once I figured it is basically impossible since the sources were written mainly about the West Bank and the word Settlement serve in both meaning, but mainly the West Bank one, so I reverted it. At Barkan Industrial Park I mainly shifted around material regardless of whether I liked it or not.

It must be a joke that Nishidani blames me for ganging on him. I asked Cptnono to look at the page since he seems to get some respect from other editors and I wanted an opinion of someone else instead of going to war. On Skunk (weapon) after I have argued for weeks over it not being WP:NPOV, a third was cut by Cptnono with not a single sound from Nishidani. Ashtul (talk) 12:18, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I never said you were following me. The gravamen of my point is that you still fail to grasp elementary rules on editing Wikipedia and (b) when you edit this area, you do so in a style that looks provocative of edit-warring, and, in edit-summaries and on the talk page, do not give reasons that have any bearing on policy.

I was away for some days. On returning I noted on opening the computer that I was pinged to visit this page, which I hadn't bookmarked. Noticing the controversies, I then checked to see what was going on. I never follow anyone. I follow issues raised as problematical on I/P pages, certainly. There is no excuse for Ashtul's removal: the three books I cited, and the page numbers I used, embrace specifically the issue of community settlements. Reading them, I was enlightened, and went to add the material to the relevant page. What Ashtul appears to be saying is that (a) West Bank settlements is the major class (A); community settlements are (B) a subclass of A. He thinks he can remove sources dealing with (A) in connection with (B) because the sources should deal only with (B). Frankly in logic that is absurd. This is not a content dispute. He removes content with edit summaries and arguments that fail to justify the removal in terms intelligible in terms of WP policies and practices. Essentially, on Jewish settlement articles, his apparent intention is to downcase, elide or remove as much as possible any textual reference to Palestinians affected by them.Nishidani (talk) 12:52, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

GG arbcom amendment request involving Mark Bernstein and your earlier block of him

You might want to check out WP:ARCA#Amendment Request: GamerGate. Doesn't look like it'll go anywhere, but it may be of interest to you. Cheers. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 12:36, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:45, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Darth Vader

Is it true that Administrators work for Darth Vader, and Oversighters are hand-picked by the emperor, in order to rule the galaxy with an iron fist and prevent any free speech? — Preceding unsigned comment added by JarJarBinksLikesStarWars (talk • contribs)

You don't know the power of the Dark Side! HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:50, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Rollback right/Igloo help

I imported the igloo script on my script page, but "Launch Igloo" is not showing up. Can you please help me? Yoshi24517^Chat _Online 17:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

@Yoshi24517: you need to add importScript('Wikipedia:Igloo/gloo.js'); // [[WP:Igloo]] to Special:MyPage/skin.js. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:35, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: I did, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yoshi24517/vector.js.

IP: 86.139.75.234

Hello HJM, It looks as if the above IP has re-surfaced as IP: 81.157.11.87. They have reverted my edit on Conservative Party (UK) to the same unsourced PoV edit that the original (now blocked) IP inserted. Having looked-up their location, they appear to be in the same southern area of the United Kingdom. Can I leave this with you please? Regards, David, David J Johnson (talk) 22:18, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Does this solve the problem? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:24, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Harry, Many thanks for your help. Regards, David, David J Johnson (talk) 23:27, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you familiar with TheRedPenOfDoom?!?!

Are you familiar with the user: TheRedPenOfDoom? Because if you are I will let you know that he/she is being very unreasonable! I have been editing Michiel Huisman's wiki page for quite some time now, and he has been consistently removing info that I add. Everything that I add is completely legit and is sourced. But he/she is still removing and altering stuff. Like for example removing the fact that Michiel was cast opposite Blake Lively in The Age of Adaline, because he/she said that fact that he was going to be co-starring opposite Blake Lively had and I quote "nothing to do with him being named for the role". He/she has been deleting at least around 5 full sentences or more in the last like 3 days from that page. I have worked hard with that page, and when he/she is deleting the FACTS that I add I get mad and uppset. I know you are a admin, im not asking you to necessarily ban him/her but at least make him/her stop.

Worthy of deletion?

Based on your recent deletion, would you care to comment on [1]? Hipocrite (talk) 22:11, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

I looked at that, and it's a huge screed, but it's mostly about how biased Wikipedia is for going with the reliable sources instead of somebody's "evidence" based on screenshots that purportedly show somebody who might somebody else saying something that's not quite consistent with something somebody else once said. The other one repeatedly called the subject a liar, among other claims. I'm inclined to leave it; I doubt anyone will read it, anyway. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:18, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Arbitration Report

I think you did a great job with Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2015-02-18/Arbitration report this week. Very thoughtful and considered weighing of whether the process worked with the Wifone case.
I just wanted to add that after this case was settled, I looked into reports on Wifone on ARBCOM and noticeboards and these claims of biased or even paid editing emerged regularly, even as she/he was becoming an admin. There was an effort to bring this case to ARBCOM before so there have been red flags for years. I mention this because you wrote that editors might think that RfA process wasn't thorough enough when I can't think of another admin who has regularly faced these kinds of claims. But for some reason, admins and editors were willing to look past or dismiss the suspicions other editors were bringing up. But this case didn't come out of the blue and I imagine that was mentioned during the workshop or evidence phase. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: Thanks for the compliment. Yes, you're right that it had been raised in multiple places before, although I'm not sure it's so much a case of editors wilfully looking the other way, more that the processes we have are almost incapable of getting to the bottom of complex, long-term issues. Personally, I think the problem is that it's very easy to derail an ANI thread—especially one about a prominent editor—and that the bar to participation is so low, meaning that inexperienced editors offer drive-by opinions or turn the thread into a vote, which means that analysis from editors who have taken the time to look deeply either gets lost in the fray or is dismissed as "tl;dr". Anyway, I've added something to the arb report to show that these issues didn't come out of the blue. Thanks, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:49, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, there is a great editorial piece in this week's Signpost about how to retain admins. But I've noticed that any time an editor comes to ANI to criticize an admin, it inevitably boomerangs back on him/her. Not always, but usually. I think it's fairly easy for an editor or admin to deflect most criticism unless it is really egregious conduct. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:09, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

I've not read the rest of the Signpost yet. But I don't think it's entirely fair to suggest that complaints about admins usually boomerang on the filer. A lot of complaints are frivolous (but I would say that, I suppose), are often made by tendentious editors (look at the GamerGate case—every admin for a country mile was named as a party and accused of being involved; none were sanctioned, and only one was so much as named in the proposed decision), and some are made by socks (I know of at least a handful of long-term sockmasters who like to make frivolous accusations against admins). Contrary to popular opinion, most admins are honest but fallible people doing their best to keep the wheels turning; serious abuse on the scale of Wifione is rare. It can be difficult to get proper scrutiny of a pattern of problematic editing, especially by a well-regarded editor, and that's a problem. But in my experience the same is true of any issue that requires attention to detail and is raised in a forum the values "looks fine to me based on 30 seconds' skimming of the thread" equally with a well-thought-out comment based on several hours' research. There are a handful of venues that are capable of getting to the bottom of things (AE, SPI, arbitration) and the one thing they all have in common is a more restrictive format that gives little weight to drive-by comments. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 02:44, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Liz that Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2015-02-18/Arbitration report was well-written. From now on, maybe I should just read your reports and save the time it takes to read the Arbcom decisions. EdJohnston (talk) 02:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Page move

Could you please move User:JuneGloom07/Paige to Paige Smith for me? - JuneGloom07 Talk 00:46, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Sure, done. :) HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 00:56, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! - JuneGloom07 Talk 01:24, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

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Troll account

Special:Contributions/TheGreenPenOfHope, editing Streisand effect, an article frequented by TheRedPenofDoom. Tarc (talk) 03:51, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)There's something about the "Streisand effect" that rings a bell of a past encounter with a troll. They used that term a few times, but I can't place when/where. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:07, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, Acroterion's indef'd. The username alone suggests the account was made for trolling TRPoD. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:51, 20 February 2015 (UTC)