Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles

Irish parliament

Moved to Talk:Irish parliament (disambiguation) § Requested move

Current use of the Ulster Banner on Wikipedia

I am aware that this topic has been raised in the past regarding the status of the flag, but I feel that the usage of the Ulster Banner on Wikipedia should be addressed. Given that Northern Ireland does not have a flag that represents itself, should we really be using the Ulster Banner to represent Northern Ireland?

I propose that we remove the flag from the template {{NIR}} or else replace it with the Union Jack, which is legally the only flag that represents Northern Ireland. Articles such as the Commonwealth Games and List of FIFA country codes use the UB to represent NI – but we ought to remember that the encyclopaedia is supposed to be accurate and neutral, and we should not use the flag to mirror sporting tournaments because that would be entirely erroneous and misleading. (This was originally posted at Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland, tagging Scolaire and Mabuska). st170e 17:52, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

In response to Mabuska's comment at the previous discussion: I do know that some of the population use the flag to represent NI but the flag has no official status. It would be better if there were a concrete rule that we could apply to the whole encyclopaedia rather than the status quo and that's what I hope will happen. st170e 17:54, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Official status means little on this site when the state called Ireland is located at Republic of Ireland despite its official name and the city of Londonderry is located at Derry despite the former being the official name for the city. Regardless of de jure, the flag is de facto used to represent Northern Ireland in many fields and is only objected too by a minority of people (no matter how large a minority) in Northern Ireland, most of which are Irish republicans who don't even acknowledge Northern Ireland's existence never mind a flag.

In short the flag is indistinguishable in representing Northern Ireland. The Union Flag on the other hand is indistinguishable in representing the United Kingdom even though it has never being officially put into law. Mabuska ^(talk) 23:06, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Sure – but those two examples deal with article titles, not flags or emblems, but I understand your point. With regard to the flag's usage, I think it's unfair to group supporters of the UB along the religious divide. When dealing with flags, especially in the case of Northern Ireland because it's such a contentious issue, a consensus needs to be agreed for a concrete style usage for the flag instead of the wishy-washy status quo. Although used to represent Northern Ireland in international sport, it is entirely misleading to continue to use the flag.

The UB didn't become the official flag until 1953 and ceased in 1972. Currently, it has no status. I'd argue that a flag should not be used in the case of Northern Ireland and it be removed from the {{NIR}} template. If a flag were absolutely necessary, should we not use the Union Flag? It's the only flag used by government institutions (i.e. Stormont, Hillsborough Castle), but I'm not sure why a flag is absolutely necessary for an encyclopaedia. st170e 23:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to dispell some myths here.

Firstly, we need to get over the idea of any "official" status of any flags. Here's why:

The flag of Scotland (the saltire) has no "official" status. It was, however, mentioned in the Scottish Assembly a couple of decades ago, and may have gained "official status" because of that. I don't know if any actual legislation was passed, but there had been no legislation before that. However, despite some peoples' objections to that particular saltire, it was very definitely the flag of Scotland.

The flag of England (George cross) has no "official" status.

The Union Jack has no "official" status.

The only flag which I believe has any real status is the flag of Wales (the red dragon on a green field). It was legislated for "officially" some time in the 1950s.

Secondly, we need to get over any idea that the Union Jack (or, as some people seem to be calling it in the last decade for some reason, the "Union Flag") is "the official flag of Northern Ireland".

It most definitely is not. The Union Jack is the flag of the United Kingdom.

The confusion has come about by the fact that during official international visitations to Northern Ireland, the British government bodies involved will fly the Union Jack on relevant buildings. This has to do with government representation etc, but does not change the status of the flag of Northern Ireland (or, as you call it, the "Ulster Banner") to 'official' or 'unofficial'. It is not used to represent Northern Ireland on those occasions.

The Northern Irish flag has actually been around since about 1924, at which point it became "official" depending on interpretation of that word. The government of Northern Ireland didn't adopt it for use until 1953. Probably no coincidence that this was the year that Queen Elizabeth II was crowned.

As the Northern Irish flag was never really "official" to begin with (just like the aforementioned flags of England, Scotland and the UK), it has not suddenly become "unofficial" or lose any "official" status.

The flag is, however, the de facto civic flag of Northern Ireland, as is the English flag for England.

That some people reject use of the flag is quite irrelevant. These same people, more often than not, also reject the actual official status of Northern Ireland as a part of the UK (as Mabuska as suggested). I don't think Wikipedia should mirror that sentiment with regard to the status of Northern Ireland. Equally, I don't think Wikipedia should make a statement (as it currently does) with regard to the flag of Northern Ireland.

I actually asked a vexillologist from Queens University Belfast about this matter of "official status", and he had to agree with me when I presented him with the facts about the flag of England etc.

The problem with the Union Jack is that it does not represent Northern Ireland as a specific entity. It represents the United Kingdom as a whole.

The flag of Northern Ireland is the only flag, that I can think of anyway, that represents solely the country of Northern Ireland.

So..

• Wikipedia should not use the Union Jack to represent Northern Ireland, unless in situations whereby the same flag is used to represent the other constituent parts of the UK.

• Wikipedia is taking a political stance by omitting the flag from any articles.

Also, bear in mind the "official status" of other flags. Take a look at the article on Cornwall. The Cornish flag is displayed in the infobox. It has the same "official" status as the flags of England, UK and Northern Ireland.

I certainly understand people have political opinion, but political sentiment should not get in the way of Wikipedia presenting reality. There is no other de facto civic flag for Northern Ireland.

To that end, I think the currently offensive policy of Wikipedia with regard to the flag be revisited and changed. --75.177.79.101 (talk) 08:15, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Alright, I understand the points you've made. The key difference between the rest of the flags used in GB is that the NI flag isn't universally recognised by all communities. If we split along nationalist/unionist parties in the Assembly, it's more or less 50%-50% (given that unionist parties will support the UB/nationalist parties will not). In absence of a de jure flag and where the de facto flag is controversial, should we not seek a neutral, alternative option that maintains the neutrality of the site?

I disagree that no flag is a political stance – government institutions do not use the UB as a matter of policy, whereas the English, Scottish and Welsh flags are used on the appropriate national days. The saltire is hoisted on St Patrick's Day in London if my memory serves me correctly as an alternative. st170e 12:04, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

On that point St170e, the only flag that receives official usage from an NI government institution is the current NI Assembly flag;

Considering the Ulster Banner only has claim to usage for being the Government of NI emblem from 1952-1972, surely there's an argument to be made that the current Government of NI flag has the same merit? It would seem a more neutral flag icon for Northern Ireland when used on articles of people from NI.

I know it's been a few month but I'd be very interested to hear input regard this potential flag icon change? BBX118 15:57, 26 June 2018 (UTC)BBX118 bbx118

Attractive though it is, the flag of the Northern Ireland Assembly only represents the Assembly, not Northern Ireland itself. I think the only responsible thing to do is to have a flag-sized transparent rectangle where a flag would otherwise be. Q·L·1968 ☿ 16:46, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

That, or ... didn't we decided back when to use the Union Jack, since technically it's the only national flag that pertains?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:24, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, I don't think we did, at least not with respect to {{NIR}}. The Union Jack may be a national flag, but it's not the national flag of Northern Ireland as such. All of this is very politically sensitive and divisive, which is why Northern Ireland doesn't really have a flag currently. Now that I look back, there was some edit warring about the Union Jack in 2007, but obviously no consensus. Q·L·1968 ☿ 01:14, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm probably thinking of one of that series of discussions, though more likely a later one at WT:MOSICONS rather than the 2007 one here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:22, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd support Q.L's idea of a flag-sized transparent rectangle when using the flag icon NIR, until such time as the NI authority decides on a representative flag. I've seen various flags used for NI (St. Patrick's saltire, Ulster Banner, current NI Assembly flag, the Ulster provincial flag etc.) Until such time as the NI government uses an accepted flag, it makes sense to go with the transparent rectangle.

BBX118 15:57, 26 June 2018 (UTC)BBX118 bbx118

The Northern Ireland Assembly flag represents just the institution. I've never seen that used for another purpose, so I don't think that would necessarily work. A transparent flag icon would of course be the most sensible option for as long as NI doesn't have its own emblem or flag. If other users insisted on a flag, I would be open to the Union Flag being used for that purpose. I've never seen a flag used for the NI Executive so that wouldn't be the equivalent of the Ulster Banner used by the Northern Ireland Government until 1972. st170e 11:33, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Nationality/Citizenship - from Northern Ireland

I'm seeing more and more fighting over people from Northern Ireland regarding their nationality and "personage". For example there's a lot of edit warring over someone is Irish because they were born in Northern Ireland, no someone is British because they're born in Northern Ireland and they need to voluntarily obtain Irish citizenship, etc. For years some of us have been supporting the format of "X is a sportsperson from Northern Ireland" rather than "X is an Irish sportsperson", "X is a British sportsperson." I think this is going on so much that we need to codify this into the IMOS. I'd propose that we should describe someone solely as being "from Northern Ireland" unless we have a strong source that states they are British or Irish. Everything else is assumption, original research and person interpretation of various nationality laws/citizenships/parentage etc. Thoughts? 14:54, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Damned fine idea. Also consistent with WP:ABOUTSELF and the spirit of MOS:IDENTITY (which no longer covers national stuff, just gender identity; for more on that, see: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Re-RfCing Arab/Arabic. The passage in question would be a good place to include this as an example, too, perhaps.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:07, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Ireland or Republic of Ireland?

I think that the Irish Constitution takes presidence over what others write in Wikipedia.

Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that the name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland. Hence, the Irish state has two official names, Éire (in Irish) and Ireland (in English). For official purposes, including in international treaties and other legal documents, and where the language of the documents is English, the Irish government uses the name Ireland. The same is true in respect of the name Éire for documents written in Irish. Similarly, the name of the state is reflected in its institutions and public offices. For example, there is a President of Ireland and a Constitution of Ireland. The name Ireland is also used in the state's diplomatic relations with foreign nations and at meetings of the United Nations, European Union,Council of Europe, International Monetary Fund, and Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development Nublue2 (talk) 14:33, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death. I think you may have about 10 years' worth of talk-page archives to catch up on. You can find them at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration - that page itself, then the archive box at the top of the page. Regards, Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:15, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

I would just add that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Constitutions, statutes, treaties or anything else do not take precedence over anything, particularly not over consensus. If "Republic of Ireland" or "the Republic" is a term that is commonly used in reliable, published sources – and it is – then it can be used in certain circumstances in certain articles where there is a consensus to do so – and there is a consensus to use both in the articles that you tried to change. The current Irish Manual of Style reflects that consensus. Scolaire (talk) 16:16, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

The term "Republic" is used almost exclusively by BBC, and residents of both Britain and Northern Ireland.

Those living in Ireland and Northern Ireland use the appropiate term for their relevant countries.

Should we refer to Italy as Republic of Italy, France as Republic of France, Romania as Republic of Romania?

I think not!

Ireland is known as Ireland. Nublue2 (talk) 16:23, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

We've all heard the arguments. We know them off by heart. You are bringing nothing new to the table. I appreciate your concern, but still, after seventeen years of constantly revisiting the topic, there is no appetite for overturning the current guidelines. We use "Ireland" when we can, which is nearly all the time, and "Republic of Ireland" or "the Republic" in certain circumstances when it is deemed appropriate. Scolaire (talk) 16:59, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

WikiProjects

User:SeoR, about this: Can you give me a link to the ArbCom resolution that requires a link to that specific group of people? I'm mostly curious how long ago it was. AFAICT Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration is not active. I don't think there is any utility in sending people to a page that nobody seems to be using and that only 26 active editors are watching (compared to, say, 626 editors at the Village Pump proposals or even 37 active editors at WikiProject Ireland). This is the kind of specific detail that might have made sense at the time ago, but which doesn't necessarily make sense forever. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:12, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi @WhatamIdoing:, I will try to locate it. I have something in my Wiki notes file, dating from a period when I limited editing, partly to avoid the Ireland naming dispute:

Arbcom says: Per these motions at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment:

Discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles must occur at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration.

Moderators of Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration may ban any contributor from the pages within the scope of the WikiProject for up to a month when a contributor is disrupting the collaboration process.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Tiptoety talk 21:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I will revert after digging a bit.SeoR (talk) 17:31, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree, by the by, that that mini-project is somewhat resting. Some editors have moved on altogether, some internally, but as I understand, it did help get past a difficult circle of discussions. The idea was to avoid bogging down WP:Ireland, WP:Northern Ireland and others, and to end editor time loss, and even resignation.SeoR (talk) 17:35, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

The sentence in the first paragraph is misleading. I didn't notice until WhatamIdoing's edit highlighted it. The Arbcom ruling is here. The motion adopted (i.e. the ruling) is, "Discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles must occur at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration" (emphasis added). It does not state that "contentious issues" around "Ireland–Republic of Ireland" must be discussed there, and it has no effect whatever on issues around "Derry–Londonderry". The WikiProject Ireland Collaboration page is, as you both say, completely inactive. The WikiProject Ireland Collaboration talk page springs to life whenever some newbie proposes moving the Republic of Ireland page, then goes dead again, usually after a couple of days. Discussions on moving the Derry page invariably occur at Talk:Derry. The sentence should be edited to reflect the actual situation, though IMO simply saying "Major changes relating to contentious issues...should be discussed" is stating the obvious. Scolaire (talk) 14:33, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I've linked to the ArbCom case and repeated its language. I've added another link in the more relevant section.

That's what we "should" do, according to a decade-old decision. Now the question is whether that's what we should do, at this point in time, given the likelihood that the WikiProject is "resting", is a different question. We could ask ArbCom to change the decision, either to point to a different place (like WP:VPPR) or to remove it (any normal page-move procedure is okay). Alternatively, we could beg more editors to watch that page. I'm slightly inclined to suggest the ArbCom amendment, but I cheerfully defer to other editors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I am no expert, but I'd either leave it as is, or route it back to ArbCom - we *really* don't need to rehash the underlying matter any more. There is no perfect answer, we all know that well (and all who've been involved, could recite the relevant legal provisions, etc.) and yet what we have works well enough. I would *not* favour just letting it go to the normal process, and I think the routing to the special page may actually still be the best answer, as people can rally round there if needed, as they do.SeoR (talk) 22:29, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

If we will continue to need people to "rally round there", then we should be advertising its existence and purpose. Otherwise, the only people who show up will be the people who are already involved in the particular dispute. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:46, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: I'm undoing your second edit. The sidebox suggests that editors should go to IECOLL for useful advice on place names like Rosmuc, Drogheda, Dungannon or Derry. That's not the case: only the titles of the specific island, state and disambiguation articles are meant to be discussed there. I'm also editing the lead again, for more clarity. Scolaire (talk) 12:52, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

The fact that IECOLL is "resting" is a red herring. The project itself was intended to be something completely different; it never got off the ground, and was hijacked by the ArbCom process in early 2009. The project page never has anything substantive added to it. The talk page, meanwhile, has only ever existed as a kind of sandbox for the well-known arguments to be recycled at intervals. The procedure is always the same: somebody posts on Talk:Ireland or Talk:Republic of Ireland that the name is "wrong", somebody points out that such discussions must take place at IECOLL, and the thread is moved there, where people can let off steam for a few days. Having said that, it only happens a couple of times a year now, compared with every couple of weeks back in 2008. Perhaps it would be worth going back to Arbcom and asking them to lift the requirement; it was intended to curb disruptive editing on multiple pages, which isn't a problem now. Scolaire (talk) 13:35, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Whatever you all think is best is okay with me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:46, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Use of Taoiseach

I assume nobody, other than @PainMan: (who is going on a spree changing it) has a problem with the use of Taoiseach instead of prime minister? FDW777 (talk) 10:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)