Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pornography

What exactly is a "well-known and significant industry award"?

I believe that the NightMoves Award is well-known/significant enough to meet WP:PORNBIO. In addition to passing GNG, NightMoves was at one point the third largest in the porn industry (XBIZ has most likely surpassed it like it has with XRCO) and remains porn's third longest running awards show. If NightMoves was the porn industry's third largest award in 2002, and there were at least four other porn awards given out that year (AVN, XRCO, Venus, and NINFA) which are well-known/significant under PORNBIO, then logically, so is NightMoves, since it's bigger than two of them, right? Exactly what criteria does AVN, XBIZ, XRCO, FAME, Venus, NINFA, and Hot d'Or meet that Urban X and Adam Film World don't? Is there some sort of "checklist" of requirements a porn award needs to meet in order to be well-known/significant enough for PORNBIO? If so, what are these requirements? Rebecca1990 (talk) 10:15, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I was just about to start a discussion about this here. Although I am not a member of this wikiproject (some people probably think I am, but I'm not), a discussion seriously needs to be had about this. Lately, a lot of articles about pornographic actors and films that have actually won awards are up for deletion with the rationale usually being something along the lines of: "Although [subject] has won the award, it has been established that [foo] is a non-notable award". Subsequently, when users (usually ones who !vote "keep") ask where that consensus was established, the question is either never answered at all or answered by saying something like: "In several AfDs, it has been determined that...". Rather than having to search through "several AfDs", I have a list of suggestions.

1. If an award ceremony has a long-standing article, it can be concluded that enough users deem the ceremony to be notable (this includes, but is not limited to, AVN, XBIZ and XRCO).
2. If a user suggests that an award ceremony is non-notable, then rather than place a {{notability}}, {{prod}} or {{afd}} tag on the articles of subject that won the award, instead place such a tag on the article of the ceremony itself; and if it is one of the latter tags, thoroughly explain your non-neutral reasoning. (Side note: If people suggest that pro-pornography users cannot be neutral, I'll use myself as an example and state that two of my favorite actresses had their articles deleted, and I started those AfDs myself (Alison Tyler, Alina Li).)
3. If the article for the award ceremony ends up being deleted, it would then be suitable to place one of the aforementioned tags on an article of subject that won the award...but only if pornography is the only major thing the subject is known for.

---

Also keep in mind that notability is not temporary. For example, the Urban X Awards are no longer given, but that does not mean that subjects that won the award are now non-notable.

Thoughts? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 19:37, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I Oppose expansion of the list of awards that confer a presumption of notability under PORNBIO. As I see it, the purpose of specific notability guidelines is to provide a useful indicator that a topic is highly likely to meet the GNG if the full range of reliable sources could be reviewed. The problem with adding more and more dubious awards to the guideline is that it opens the already wide doors to more and more porn actor biographies that utterly fail to meet the GNG, who have received only routine coverage in promotional porn industry trade publications, with no attention whatsoever from actual independent reliable sources. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:20, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Well, Cullen, which award ceremonies do you consider dubious, and why? In addition, what proof do you have that the sources listed for the already present articles for the award ceremonies aren't independent? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 05:26, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

The notion that every single person who wins a given award is notable just because the award itself is notable is ludicrous. Notability is not inherited. Consider military awards like the Bronze Star Medal. There is absolutely no doubt that the Bronze Star is notable, and far more notable by every measure than the NightMoves award. Does that mean that every winner of the Bronze Star is notable? Absolutely not. The vast majority of Bronze Star winners are not notable. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:30, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

None of that answers either question I asked. And for the record, WP:INHERITED doesn't mention anything about awards or people who win them. (Are you going to say that a musician whose only claim to fame is winning a single Grammy Award isn't notable?) Also, if a pornography-related article has a source that is also about pornography, that doesn't automatically mean that said source is primary. After all, why would the source be about a different topic? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 05:38, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Please try to improve your reading comprehension, Erpert, since this is the third time in recent days that you have misunderstood the plain meaning of my written words. I never wrote or implied that there were no independent sources present in the NightMoves article. Yeah, there is some non-porn industry Florida newspaper coverage. Instead, I say that there is no consensus that winning a NightMoves award confers notabilify on a porn actor or film just as there is no consensus that winning a Bronze Star confers notability on a soldier. Is that clear? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:41, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay, Cullen328, you need to chill out with the attitude. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 01:54, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

It is inconceivable that a person who won a Grammy award will not have received extensive coverage in a wide variety of independent reliable sources. It is entirely predictable that a large percentage of porn award winners receive coverage only in a relative handful of "walled garden" porn industry trade publications, and are ignored by general circulation publications. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:46, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

• It's important to remember that there's been a long-term process at work here to generally denigrate adult film industry awards to try & eventually remove them from consideration at all at AfD, particularly for BLPs. What's been going on in the most recent months is an attempt to "weed out" pornography-related articles that either no longer obviously meet the stricter standards of PORNBIO or intentionally "push the envelope" to see if a few more award ceremonies and/or specific award categories can be removed from consideration at AfD. There also does not always appear to be a lot of honest BEFORE activity going on at certain, recent pornography-related AfDs.

The way I've always viewed the PORNBIO standard as it relates to awards is:

-Is the award ceremony "a well-known industry award" ceremony? (It absolutely must have a Wikipedia entry in order to even be considered "a well-known industry award" ceremony.)

-Is the specific award category given by that ceremony a "significant industry award"? (Having a Wikipedia entry on that specific award category might help out, but I kind of doubt that it would matter much at AfD even at this late date.)

Not all specific award categories given out at any ceremony (adult film-related or not) are obviously going to be well-known, significant, major awards.

The real issue with the NightMoves Award ceremony is that there's a new Wikipedia article about it finally, and that award ceremony gives out a lot of "Fan’s Choice" and "Editor’s Choice" winners to the same categories. Accepting all of those award winners as passing PORNBIO will allow (I'm sure in the view of some at AfD) "too many" pornography-related BLPs to be kept at AfD. That's what making the PORNBIO standard stricter a few years ago was all about in the first place - significantly reducing the amount of pornography-related content on Wikipedia, period.

The issue with the Urban X Awards is that a lot of those now old AfDs where those awards were discussed weren't very well attended at the time. No one really seems to care about that at AfD at this late date either.

That old Adam Film World Awards AfD was apparently from before that award ceremony had a Wikipedia article (one that needs updating apparently).

In the past, I tried to come up with a specific listing of which award ceremonies and specific award categories were major, well-known and significant industry awards in the adult film industry, but that listing has really never been updated over time and does not enjoy the support of official Wikipedia policy. I doubt it ever will either.

Suggesting that adult film-related award ceremonies be put up for AfD in their entirety is an extremely dangerous pathway to try & suggest. The idea that those award ceremonies would be given a fair hearing there is pretty much ludicrous at this late date. Also, as I stated above, just because an award ceremony has a Wikipedia article doesn't mean that all of the specific award categories given at that ceremony pass PORNBIO. That's never been the way that I've seen things go at AfD in the past, and I doubt that it ever will in the future. Heck, some people at AfD won't even admit when a pornography-related article passes the GNG! AfD & DRV is all about "consensus", which is, unfortunately, all about who shows up to a particular discussion at a particular time.

At this late date, I don't even want to touch the whole "notability is not inherited thing", since notability is really just something that exists in some odd way on Wikipedia. That's a huge rabbithole to nowhere about something that's pretty much made up out of whole cloth. Guy1890 (talk) 08:03, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Guy1890, I'd like to address your comment on how "The real issue with the NightMoves Award ceremony is that there's a new Wikipedia article about it finally, and that award ceremony gives out a lot of "Fan’s Choice" and "Editor’s Choice" winners to the same categories. Accepting all of those award winners as passing PORNBIO will allow (I'm sure in the view of some at AfD) "too many" pornography-related BLPs to be kept at AfD. That's what making the PORNBIO standard stricter a few years ago was all about in the first place - significantly reducing the amount of pornography-related content on Wikipedia, period." First of all, I don't see how NightMoves having two winners per category (e.g Best Actress (Fan's Choice) & Best Actress (Editor's Choice)) is any different from AVN having two winners per category (e.g. Best Actress (film) & Best Actress (video)). Secondly, the vast majority of NightMoves award recipients have won some other well-known/significant award(s) and would meet PORNBIO regardless of their NightMoves award(s). Repeat winners are also common. For example, lets look at the Best Actor category. A total of 23 NightMoves Best Actor awards have been given out, but there are only 16 different recipients of it, since Steven St. Croix, Mike Horner, Peter North, Evan Stone, and Barrett Blade have all won the award twice and Randy Spears has won it three times. Out of the 16 Best Actor winners, 14 are AVN Hall of Famers, so they meet PORNBIO anyways. The remaining two who aren't in the AVN Hall of Fame are Dillon Day and Marcus London. Dillon Day passes PORNBIO with his XRCO Award for Best New Stud, so that just leaves Marcus London as the only Best Actor winner relying solely on his NightMoves awards to pass PORNBIO. Now, lets look at the Best Actress category. A total of 23 NightMoves Best Actress awards have been given out, but there are only 20 different recipients of it, since Jenna Jameson, Serenity, and Stormy Daniels have all won the award twice. Out of the 20 Best Actress winners, 15 are AVN Hall of Famers, so they meet PORNBIO anyways. 4 out of the remaining 5 not in the AVN Hall of Fame, Julie Meadows (AVN Best Supporting Actress), Carmen Luvana (XRCO Best New Starlet), Eva Angelina (AVN/XRCO Best Actress & XBIZ Female Performer of the Year), and Hillary Scott (AVN/XRCO Female Performer of the Year/Best Actress), all pass PORNBIO with their other awards. That just leaves Alexis Amore as the only Best Actress winner relying solely on her NightMoves awards to pass PORNBIO#1. I'm not going to provide an exhaustive listing like this for every single category. What I will do is count how many awards NightMoves has given out to performers/directors in total, which is 326. Due to repeat winners, the total number of recipients is 178. Most NightMoves award winners are AVN/XRCO Hall of Famers and/or recipients of other well-known/significant awards from other ceremonies. There are only 65 NightMoves winners without any other well-known/significant awards or AVN/XRCO Hall of Fame inductions. 12 of them (Alexis Amore, Kelly Shibari, Sophie Dee, Nikki Delano, Misty Stone, Priya Anjali Rai, Brandi Love, Calli Cox, Jenna Presley, Angelina Armani, Danica Dillon, and Kendra Sunderland) have enough mainstream media coverage in reliable sources and/or enough mainstream media appearances to pass WP:GNG and/or PORNBIO#3. That only leaves us with 53 people who rely solely on their NightMoves award(s) to pass PORNBIO. 53 divided by 21 (the amount of ceremonies in which NightMoves awards have been given out) is 2.5 people. The NightMoves awards, on average, only make 2.5 people pass PORNBIO per year. That is half the number of people that XRCO made to pass PORNBIO in 2015 (Penny Pax, Casey Calvert, John Strong, Adriana Chechik, and Ryder Skye hadn't won any well-known/significant awards that weren't scene-related/ensemble prior to the 2015 XRCO ceremony). And XRCO has a very small number of categories for a porn award. 2.5 people a year is nothing and will not lead to an overwhelming increase in the number of porn-related WP articles. Also, considering NightMoves well-known/significant under PORNBIO will more often lead to EARLIER creation of articles than ADDITIONAL creation of articles. A lot of porn stars/directors received the first award of their careers from NightMoves. Devon won NM Best Actress in 2003 and did not win anything else until her AVN HoF induction in 2010, Pat Myne won NM Best Director in 2004 and did not win anything else until his AVN HoF induction in 2011, and Eric Masterson won NM Best Actor in 2005 and did not win anything else until his AVN HoF induction in 2014. Although it's not like complaining about the possible increase in porn articles on WP is even a good argument to begin with. An awards significance has absolutely nothing to do with that at all. Rebecca1990 (talk) 19:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Basically, you've got to be able to show that the NightMoves Awards have gotten at least some (preferably mainstream) media coverage outside of the immediate area where that awards ceremony has been held so far in order to prove definitively that these awards are, in fact, "a well-known industry award" ceremony. I've definitely heard of them throughout the years but mostly (if not exclusively?) through adult film industry media coverage, which, unfortunately, is always going to have (unfairly IMO) a stigma attached to it here on Wikipedia. The NightMoves Award categories do appear to have a similar structure to how other adult film industry award ceremonies give out a lot (maybe not all?) of their specific award categories, so proving that those specific award categories are "significant" (or major, in my own words) awards shouldn't be that hard at all.

The AVN Awards apparently stopped giving out film & video-based individual awards around-about 2008. Again, at this late date, an award ceremony that basically gives "two bites at the apple" isn't going to welcomed by many (that have a distinct anti-porn bias anyways) with open arms. There may have been a distinction at one point in the past between adult films that made it to the mostly non-existent adult film movie theaters of yesteryear and those that only made it to home video/DVD release, but those days are pretty much gone now.

I don't think it matters if it's 2.5 more articles per year or 50 more articles per year..."too many" is "too many" to those with a certain bias, and that's what you are really up against at this late date. It isn't exactly fair, but it is what it is... Guy1890 (talk) 07:03, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Guy1890, as I've demonstrated below, mainstream media coverage outside of media local to the awards ceremony is an unrealistic expectation for a porn award that only AVN meets. And you don't think that AVN is the industry's ONLY well-known/significant award, do you? I'm not asking for you to give me the possible opinion of other users on the NightMoves Awards, I want to know YOUR opinion on it. There is both mainstream and adult industry reliable source coverage stating that the NightMoves Awards were at one point the industry's third largest and remain the industry's third longest running. XBIZ is probably the only award that has surpassed it, so NightMoves should be no lower than fourth place, and longevity is a difficult thing for a porn award to achieve (there's more short-lived defunct awards than not). Do YOU consider this a well-known/significant award and can I count on you to support it as meeting PORNBIO at AfD, at least for the obvious ones like Best New Starlet, Best Male/Female Performer, Best Actor/Actress, Hall of Fame, etc.? If not, what does it take to convince you, not others, YOU, that it is a well-known/significant award? Rebecca1990 (talk) 08:12, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Your attempts at votebanking is inappropriate for the wikiproject. Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:31, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

No, votebanking is notifying a user known to share your opinion on a topic about an AfD, DRV, etc. to influence it's outcome. I'm asking what his opinion on the NightMoves Award is because he hasn't stated it, just given the possible opinions of other users while seeming torn between both sides himself and not making his own opinion on the matter clear. Rebecca1990 (talk) 09:06, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

"Vote-banking involves recruiting editors perceived as having a common viewpoint for a group, similar to a political party, in the expectation that notifying the group of any discussion related to that viewpoint will result in a numerical advantage, much as a form of prearranged vote stacking." What do you think you're doing asking him, "...can I count on you to support it as meeting PORNBIO at AfD" Morbidthoughts (talk) 09:37, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I can assure you that votebanking was not my intention and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Rebecca1990 (talk) 13:49, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Assume good faith, MT. In no way do I condone votebanking either, but to be fair, isn't that what the porn deletionists are doing when they cloud AfDs with supposed consensuses on seemingly non-notable award ceremonies without providing actual proof of such a consensus? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 07:14, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I think I (and at least one other in this discussion) have stated what you need to show in order to move forward at this point. At this early date, I don't think that I could support anything more than the "Editor’s Choice" versions of the Best Actor, Best Actress, Best Director, Best Director — Feature, Best Director – Non-Parody, Best Director — Parody, Best Feature Dancer, Best Female Performer, Best Male Performer, Best New Director, Best New Starlet, Lifetime Achievement Award, NightMoves Hall of Fame, and maybe the Best Transexual Performer awards as "well-known and significant industry awards" at this time. Guy1890 (talk) 08:48, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Is there an actual reason behind this Fan's Choice/Editor's Choice distinction you're making, or is it just arbitrary? Rebecca1990 (talk) 09:10, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Why is it that you consider FAME, a fan-voted award, to be well-known-significant ([1]), but consider NightMoves Fan's Choice award as lesser than Editor's choice? Rebecca1990 (talk) 06:26, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't believe Nightmoves is a well-known award; not considering from an industry perspective but a mainstream one. Well-known is a stricter standard than simply meeting the notability threshold. Look at the difference of quality and quantity of coverage on Google News between:

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:45, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

What exactly is the difference between "notability" and "well-known" in your opinion, MT? (By Wikipedia standards, I mean.) Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:02, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

One other thing I noticed is that this is exactly the kind of discussion where all the users who seem to want to weed out porn articles should be commenting, but interestingly they're quiet. An actual fair and objective discussion rubs them the wrong way, I guess. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 02:02, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Not just being covered by reliable sources but reliable sources with large circulations. You can't expect anti-porn (or anti-cruft) editors to follow or participate in this wikiproject. The formulation of PORNBIO was ignored by them until we proposed it on the WP:BIO talk page. Morbidthoughts (talk) 02:08, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

I can't expect anti-porn editors to participate? Okay, that's fair, but it would make things more balanced. But...if the rest of us can agree on what awards are notable and what aren't, that should prove that there's no bias from even people like us. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 20:28, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

You didn't cite any discussion/guideline supporting your "reliable sources with large circulations" claim and you cherry-picked the only three awards that meet that "criteria" (AVN, XBIZ, XRCO) while ignoring these:

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

which have either fewer sources than NightMoves or coverage in only local sources without "large circulations". FAME, Venus, NINFA, and Hot d'Or all have consensus supporting them as well-known/significant under PORNBIO. How can "being covered by reliable sources with large circulations" be a requirement to meet PORNBIO's well-known/significant award criteria if there are awards that don't meet that "requirement" and still have consensus supporting them as well-known/significant? Rebecca1990 (talk) 09:49, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, Rebecca, MT probably only mentioned those three because those are the three that I initally mentioned. But I see your point as well. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 20:28, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Rebecca, you know fully well that there has never been consensus on the criteria for "well-known and significant" given this discussion you participated in.[2] However I note that you defended the AVNs in that discussion with mainstream media citations with large circulations. Erpert asked me for my opinion and that is my opinion that I will apply at AfDs. I don't believe FAME to be a well-known award. As for the other awards, I don't believe a Google News search is appropriate without knowing the appropriate Non-English terms to search for those awards or knowing how extensive their news database is in those languages. You may notice my participation in those AfDs you cited that I argued on the basis of the GNG rather than trying to figure out of if those awards are well-known. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:49, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

IMO, "large circulations" is a relative term. Moreover, if it's a niche subject (which pornography appears to be), well, of course it probably won't get mainstream circulation, but...that doesn't diminish notability. Unless I misread WP:SIGCOV, no topic has to have coverage everywhere to be notable. Porn deletionists (and I'm not including you in this, MT) apparently try to drive home the notion that PORNBIO (for example) always requires significant coverage in mainstream media, when really, that's only one of the qualifications (and frankly, it seems like a last-resort qualification, when the actor in question isn't notable otherwise). I'm not saying that that qualification should be omitted; I'm just stating that the coverage that award ceremonies like NightMoves and F.A.M.E. have been getting prove that they are indeed significant ceremonies. But can we at least agree that if a porn actor's only claim to fame is winning a seemingly non-notable award, then the article for the award should be nominated for deletion first, rather than the article for the actor? If the award's article survives deletion, then thus should the actor's award. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 09:17, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

The argument is not that the award is not notable. Just not well-known (and significant) which of course is subjective and as you used the term "relative". I had argued in 2012 for a more objective standard Lookup 14:32, 1 May 2012 but that did not pass. So winning an award that is notable but not well-known and significant can not save a performer from deletion. "Well-known and significant" was borrowed from ANYBIO when we first formulated PORNBIO and people didn't want to allow a lower threshold in PORNBIO than ANYBIO. Therefore, I consider whether an award is well-known from a mainstream perspective not some niche industry perspective. Morbidthoughts (talk) 09:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

PORNBIO's "well-known and significant INDUSTRY award" criteria obviously has nothing to do with being "well-known from a mainstream perspective". If you're asking for coverage from non-local sources, that is an unrealistic expectation for porn awards that only AVN meets. The XBIZ and XRCO awards take place in Los Angeles and only have actual coverage in Los Angeles sources like the Los Angeles Times ([3] & [4]). The rest is passing mentions. Also, I doubt that even AVN itself is "well-known from a mainstream perspective". Most people don't even know that awards for porn exist. Rebecca1990 (talk) 13:17, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

You want to argue semantics? A "well-known and significant industry award" is not the same as "well known and significant award in the industry". The LA Times is a paper that serves a metro area of 13+ million and its writers/columnists are syndicated around the country. But hey, if you want to argue that XRCO and XBIZ are not well-known by the mainstream, be my guest. Morbidthoughts (talk) 19:44, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I just realized something. The NightMoves Awards have received a lot of covered by the St. Petersburg Times/Tampa Bay Times ([5], [6], [7]), which is the 16th most circulated newspaper in the country, so it should meet your "reliable sources with large circulations" standard. Rebecca1990 (talk) 20:59, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Tampa Bay media doesn't cut it for me. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:49, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

MT, I'm afraid your standards might just be way too high for this issue. What does everyone else think about my proposal? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 06:11, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Why not MT? Los Angeles media only is enough for Los Angeles-based XBIZ and XRCO awards. What's with this double standard? See "Primary Locality" for the Los Angeles Times, which is "Los Angeles", not "Nationwide". Rebecca1990 (talk) 07:37, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

The standard is that the LA Times is much larger than the Tampa Bay Times and serves a much larger population. Got it?! Your attempt to equate the two is ludicrous. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Circulation of the Tampa Bay Times is 340,260 while circulation of the Los Angeles Times is 653,868. The NightMoves Awards have also received coverage in the Sun-Sentinel ([8]), which has a circulation of 163,728. The Los Angeles metropolitan area is 18,238,998, the Tampa Bay metropolitan area is 2,842,878, and the South Florida (where the Sun-Sentinel is circulated) metropolitan area is 6,375,434. Circulation of Tampa Bay Times + Sun-Sentinel = 503,988, which comes quite close to the Los Angeles Times circulation. The populations of Tampa Bay + South Florida = 9,218,312, which is over half the Los Angeles metropolitan area, but still a lot. Also, I don't believe the Sun-Sentinel can be considered local to the Tampa Bay area just because they are both in Florida. South Florida is in south-eastern Florida and Tampa Bay is in the center of Florida's west coast. So now we also have slightly non-local coverage. Rebecca1990 (talk) 08:55, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

The circulation numbers you rely on are archaic given that it is based on paper copies and digital subscriptions. You have to consider general web traffic given that people also read their news online outside of digital subscriptions: LA Times Tampa Bay Times Sun-Sentinel Morbidthoughts (talk) 09:28, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

My argument is not that NightMoves is MORE well-known/significant than XBIZ and XRCO, my argument is that it is AMONG the industry's well-known/significant awards. That's like trying to say that XBIZ and XRCO are more well-known/significant than AVN, they're not, but that doesn't mean they're not well-known/significant at all, just that AVN is even more well-known significant. I know all numbers above for NightMoves/sources covering it are lower than the numbers for XBIZ/XRCO/sources covering them, but the NightMoves/source's numbers are still pretty high. The NINFA Awards still have recent consensus supporting them as well-known significant. A search for "Premios NINFA" yields results that are mostly for either a different award by the same name, or passing mentions in articles where the main topic is something else, usually a profile of a Spanish porn performer who has received a NINFA. The NINFA Awards take place in Barcelona and actual coverage on them is from local Barcelona newspapers like El Periódico de Catalunya ([9]) and La Vanguardia ([10]), which have even lower circulation, totaling 316,198. Even combined they have less circulation than the Tampa Bay Times alone. As for web traffic, elperiodico.com had 24,872 unique visitors in November 2015 and lavanguardia.com had 65,351 unique visitors in November 2015. Combined, they had 90,223, which is only about 7% of the Tampa Bay Times 1,271,645. Rebecca1990 (talk) 13:49, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't put too much stock on the Spain google news search as being complete since Google has removed Spanish publishers from their engine.[11] I also don't know if traffic/circulation/reach metrics should be directly compared outside the U.S.. Morbidthoughts (talk) 20:27, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Also coverage from the three largest newspapers in Spain:

• El País[12]
• El Mundo (Spain)[13]
• ABC (newspaper)[14]

Morbidthoughts (talk) 20:58, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

One other thing that people should keep in mind...the common argument by porn deletionists is that the article in question isn't supported by sources independent of the subject...but what's happening is that they are misusing the term "subject" from a Wikipedia standpoint. Let's use the example of one of the (if not the) most famous porn stars: Jenna Jameson. In her case, the subject is her, not pornography. If most of the sources in her article came from, say, her own website, then those wouldn't be independent (but that doesn't mean that those sources can't be used at all; simply use them with care). Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 07:14, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it's pretty safe to say that enough people are in agreement that based on sources and coverage, NightMoves is indeed a notable award ceremony. Thus, if someone tries to have the article of a subject that only won a NightMoves award deleted, they can be directed to this discussion, which is in a central location. But if anyone tries to argue that this consensus is votebanking, I have three reasons why it isn't:

1. As with AfDs or any other discussion, anyone was welcome to participate in this discussion (unless they are topic-banned from anything pornography-related, that is).
2. A few members of this wikiproject questioned the notability of NightMoves, which thus debunks a pro-pornography bias.
3. A centralized consensus makes it much easier to prove a point than, again, "It has been decided in several AfDs that..."

To elaborate on the "centralized consensus" idea (sorry to overuse that phrase, but I just think it drives my point home), let's say someone nominates Shake It Off (Taylor Swift song) for deletion. The discussion might go like this:

Not notable. WikiNominator

Keep. It is a charted single, and consensus is that charted singles are inherently notable. WikiVoter

And where is this consensus? WikiNominator

Right in WP:NSONG. WikiVoter

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See, NSONG is in a central location, so users can easily go there and thus see what's up. But this is what usually happens in situations about pornography:

Has won an award, but it has been decided in several AfDs that [award] is not a notable award. WikiNominator

Keep. Which AfDs? WikiVoter

(crickets chirping) WikiNominator

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In addition, although this is probably unintentional, admins who close such AfDs as "delete" might inadvertently be looking at votestacking rather than considering the merit of the comments behind the !votes. All in all, though, if any other porn award ceremony has questionable notability, well, we can do the same process with that ceremony's article. (And again, of course it would be easier to {{afd}} the article, but for some reason some users seem to rather suggest consensuses being met via different AfDs rather than proving them)—and for the record, I'm on the fence about the notability of Adam Film World awards (the awards, not the magazine). Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 09:06, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

A recent AfD for a FAME Award recipient was closed as "no consensus", but it shows more support than opposition for FAME meeting PORNBIO. I myself support FAME as well-known/significant under PORNBIO, but FAME is obviously not as major as NightMoves, which has much more source coverage than FAME. NightMoves is also the industry's third longest running awards show (2015 was its 23rd annual ceremony) while FAME only had 5 ceremonies. Rebecca1990 (talk) 06:24, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

One more thing I'd like to add to the "too many" additional porn bios concern some users may have, which was addressed above. As I pointed out last month, NightMoves only makes, on average, about 2.5 people pass PORNBIO per year and it is much more likely to lead to EARLIER creation of articles rather than ADDITIONAL creation of articles. Well, now that the AVN and XBIZ awards have taken place, four people (Kleio Valentien, Ryan Driller, Jessy Dubai, Kendra Sunderland) whose only non-scene/ensemble award wins prior to AVN/XBIZ 2016 were from NightMoves, have now won either an AVN or XBIZ non-scene/ensemble award. Accepting NightMoves Awards as passing PORNBIO only gave them notability under that guideline three months earlier than it would have otherwise. Also, XRCO 2016 hasn't taken place yet, so there might be even more winners there who previously relied solely on NightMoves to pass PORNBIO. Rebecca1990 (talk) 22:43, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I believe the majority of the people are more concerned with amount of bios that have shitty sourcing and content beyond winning an award. That the industry sources repeat what a publicist or the performer says without fact checking aka kayfabe which marks like Erpert deny. Yes, those are wrestling terms but I have enough sense to know that porn is as real as professional wrestling. Morbidthoughts (talk) 05:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

"Marks"? What are you even talking about anymore? I hope that wasn't a personal attack. Also, the idea that porn is as real as professional wrestling seems to be your own opinion. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 03:59, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Wrestling mark: The fact that you believe performers are in relationships because they tweeted so or a video says so demonstrates this especially when I go behind the curtain on a regular basis meeting their true significant others. Porn is a fantasy. That's not really in dispute. Morbidthoughts (talk) 05:49, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Andrea Dworkin reassessment

Andrea Dworkin, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. BlookerG ^talk 01:31, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Bonnie Rotten

Erpert, Guy1890, & Morbidthoughts, I have been very busy lately and I'd like you all to know I'm not done with the above debate on awards. All I've been able to do is log in every couple of days and revert any vandalism done to articles on my watchlist. Right now, I could use some help with Bonnie Rotten's article. Approx. 75 edits have been made to it in the last couple of days, most, if not all of them, inappropriate. What is purportedly her real name and the real name of her mother has been added to the article and I need someone to figure out if they are reliably sourced or not. I removed claims that she escorts from the article and explained why I found the sources unreliable, but my edit was reverted without explanation. I don't have time to review each and every edit/cited source(s) and I don't have time to deal with edit warring. Could you guys help me out please? Rebecca1990 (talk) 22:29, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Took a hacksaw and removed the bad sources including instagram, TMZ, youtube, and government records (which are not allowed). If he attempts to edit war over this, he will be blocked. Morbidthoughts (talk) 05:44, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Just to be clear, who is the user that's edit-warring? Is it Nicsmart? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 09:11, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

MT did most of the heavy-lifting, but the article appears to be in decent shape as of right now. There is some slight engagement on the article's talk page as well. Guy1890 (talk) 09:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

XBIZ Award for Girl/Girl Performer of the Year

Would anyone be willing to please assist with this article (or any similar article)? Believe it or not, it was actually speedily deleted in close to its current state, which led to this discussion. Although the deleting admin did userfy it (after which I brought it back to mainspace after adding a few independent sources), I'm still a little uneasy because as you can see from the conversation, it appears that he is contemplating the deletion of all such list articles. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 10:47, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

And to play it safe, I've been adding independent sources to other list articles that didn't seem to already have any. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 10:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

There's obviously nothing wrong with using the awarding organization to cite who won which awards or who was nominated for which awards, but using those types of sources alone in any article will limit it's appearance of notability to some for sure. There may have been some issues in the recent past with the XRCO Award article (taking away some independent sources that confirm who won which awards in favor of just citing the awarding organization) as well, which I found concerning at the time. Even using another adult film media trade source (like using AVN to cite some XBIZ award winners, etc.) is better than just using the original awarding organization itself for citing who won (or was nominated for) which awards.

I've also never thought that it was especially constructive to have separate list articles for each award category of some of the major adult film award ceremonies either. Those types of articles may end up having limited notability as well. Guy1890 (talk) 22:23, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

I would only be against creating separate list articles for the awards that didn't count for notability on their own merits; like, say, if someone created an article for XBIZ Award for Best Group Sex Scene. For example, AVN Award for Best New Starlet (which wasn't created by me, btw) has never been challenged. (In addition, mainstream articles like Primetime Emmy Award for [foo] are never challenged either.) And for such articles that I did create, I never really noticed that most of the sources in said articles were primary; but as I said above, I'm in the process of fixing that (or other people are welcome to as well; I don't get to participate on Wikipedia much anymore because of my work schedule). Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 04:09, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Debbie Does Dallas

Hi, Some prudish contributors want to censor (again) this article. See also the talk page. Regards, Yann (talk) 13:58, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Ryan Driller

The title Ryan Driller is currently WP:SALTED due to repeated recreation after this AfD back when he failed WP:PORNBIO. He recently won the XBIZ Award for Male Performer of the Year, which is the most prestigious category a male porn star can win in, therefore passing PORNBIO. A draft was rejected by AfC and requests by me and another user for a new AfD have neither been declined nor even acknowledged, just completely ignored. How else can we get Ryan Driller's article restored and a new AfD to take place? Rebecca1990 (talk) 11:40, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oh dear, this kind of shows what happens when someone insists on trying to recreate an article that manifestly fails even PORNBIO. Had it been left, this could probably have been recreated without drama after the XBIZ award. You basically have two choices - go to DRV to overturn the AFD on new information or take it to ANI. The latter course is most likely to get referred back to DRV anyway. It would be an interesting exercise to see whether DRV is now willing to give weight to PORNBIO and award wins now that the guideline has been tightened up. I don't think you have much to lose if you do - the current tension is probably around attempts to stretch PB#3 beyond breaking point rather than award wins. Spartaz ^Humbug! 12:18, 6 February 2016 (UTC)