Talk:Rupert Brooke

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Hard to believe no one has entered anything here before now. Anyway, I'm thinking the only real difference between Rupert Brooke and someone like Siegfried Sassoon or Wilfred Owen is that he never got the reality check the others did. Or is that a rather facile point that has been made many times before? --Cranston Lamont 15:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

"What if's" are very dangerous. We can't know what he would have done so making assumptions we can't support is a mistake in an encyclopedia. Alci12 23:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That's what talk pages are for. -- Cranston Lamont 21:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

English LGBT

I think it would be wise to add Brooke to that category. He was clearly what we would call "bisexual" today. V. Joe 20:31, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Although there's no reference to it in the text itself (which I am unwilling to modify) it's true and deserves to be left in. No expert would dispute the label. 69.216.116.111 00:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

I too have always accepted his bisexuality as a given, and am surprised the article has no mention of it. Does no one have a quotable source? BrainyBabe (talk) 05:35, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Don't have the attribution right to hand, but in his letters he tells the story of seducing a friend's older brother one bored afternoon.Zythe (talk) 10:17, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I put this two, but it was reverted. Both talk about his bisexuality...--88marcus (talk) 22:58, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

One is a blog, the other is a work of fiction, both unacceptable per WP:RS.--Galassi (talk) 01:04, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

• I've just read Mike Read's Forever England: The Life of Rupert Brooke (revised edition, 2015). In it, he writes of Brooke having a "sexual dalliance" with Denham Russell-Smith in the autumn of 1909 (p. 182).

Despite the rushed, unsatisfactory night in his bedroom at the Orchard, the two remained good friends and did not speak of the moment again. As far as can be ascertained it was Brooke's only real homosexual experience, apart from schoolboy experimentation at Rugby.

• On p. 348 there is further discussion of homosexual rumours. His literary executor Edward "Eddie" Marsh, who knew him for 10 years and was gay himself, wrote in 1947 ... during all the years when I've known him I never saw the slightest reason for thinking he had a "homosexual streak".
• Brooke excited the interest of many people, of both sexes, and various men made their attraction to him known to him, hoping for reciprocity, but with the exception noted above he always rebuffed such advances. All of his serious amorous attentions were directed towards women: Noel Olivier, Ka Cox, Cathleen Nesbitt, Phyllis Gardner, Taatamata, and others. His one-off moments with boys and Russell-Smith were clearly normal experimentation, and do not support a conclusion of homo- or even bi-sexuality. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:43, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Accordingly, I have removed references to his supposed bisexuality from the article. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:02, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

And why not also remove the LGBT project from this page? 86.148.182.127 (talk) 19:37, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Done. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:26, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. And the irrelevant category has gone too. There are far too many articles with these unnecessary categories and project assignments. On the Talk:Michael Portillo page someone made the remark "Everyone eats food, so no-one would claim that is sufficient to make someone relevant to the Food and drink project. "; a good point. 86.148.182.127 (talk) 23:01, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

References

Ka Cox

This is associated with the following text from the main article "...resulting in the breakdown of his long relationship with Ka Cox.", it could be just my own naiveté, but I researched the name "Ka Cox" and could not verify who this person is. Who is "Ka Cox"? Is this truly a person?Sea Wolf (talk) 02:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

According to the ODNB "Katherine (Ka) Laird Cox (1887–1938)", possibly had a still-born son by Brooke in 1912. I've tried to spell this out in the article. David Underdown (talk) 10:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank-you for the edification!!!Sea Wolf (talk) 07:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Date of death

He died in Greek territory at a time when Greece was still using the Julian calendar, 13 days behind the Gregorian. Did the British army in Greece date events according to the calendar they were familar with (the Gregorian), or did they use whatever system prevailed wherever they happened to be.

If the latter was the case, was "23 April 1915" the date as per the Julian calendar (which would make it 6 May 1915 in the Gregorian), or was it 10 April under the Julian calendar (which has been converted to 23 April Gregorian)? -- JackofOz (talk) 09:52, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't see the Royal Navy (he was RNVR not army) using anything other than British dating - it would have been the date in the logbook that would have been recorded and transmitted back to the UK and 23/4 is what is recorded in his service record. David Underdown (talk) 16:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, that makes a lot of sense. In that case, given that he actually did die in Greek territory (the fact that he was English is irrelevant in this context), I suggest we supply the OS date for the sake of completion, and to save other people with a similar query from having to ask. It would appear as:

• Rupert Chawner Brooke (3 August 1887 - 23 April [O.S. 10 April] 1915) ...

-- JackofOz (talk) 21:26, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, I think this will cause more queries that it would answer. I've been interested in Rupert Brooke for nearly 30 years and this is the first time I've ever come across any comment about the date of his death. There's no mention of it in either the Christopher Hassall 1964 biography or John Lehmann's "Rupert Brooke: his life and legend". Lord Byron also died in Greece (19 April 1824), yet the page about him gives only that date - there's no "old style" date given. I move that the old style date is removed from Brooke's page.--Whoosher (talk) 17:15, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I’m glad you mentioned Byron. I raised the same query about him back in November 2007, but it’s still not clear whether his date of death was Julian or Gregorian. If indeed it turns out to have been the Julian date, this would mean that he actually lived 12 days less longer than we’ve all been led to believe. But that’s not a question for here and now.

I’m not sure whether any questions this inclusion raises will be undesirable questions. The fact that writers seem to have been oblivious to the issue doesn’t alter the fact that Rupert Brooke died in the marine territory of, and was buried in the land of, a foreign country where a different calendar was being used. Even if he actually died in international waters (I don’t know exactly how far “off the island of Lemnos” the ship was at the time), he was still buried on Skyros. In this scenario, his body would have travelled from a Gregorian place of death to a Julian place of burial (which must be virtually a unique circumstance in itself, and I’m surprised someone hasn’t picked up on it before). Had a local person been buried in the same place on the same day, that person’s burial date would be recorded as 10 April (Julian). We just can’t pretend this isn’t the case or isn’t relevant. At the very least, it deserves a footnote to explain the situation. We do the same for Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, born on Corfu. His birth certificate actually says “28 May 1921”, not the “10 June 1921” that appears everywhere (except good old Wikipedia, of course) without qualification as if the Gregorian calendar were the only that ever existed.

I appreciate that some editors might think this is straying into original research territory. I would disagree with that. We calculate the lifespans of all the subjects of our biographical articles indendepently of the calculations of any author. Sometimes we use a birth date/death date pair that no individual author agrees with. We use the birth date that is best sourced, and the death date that is best sourced, and sometimes those are different sources or a different set of sources. In Brooke’s case, nobody is disputing he died on “23 April 1915”, but that expression means different things depending on which calendar was being used. All I’m endeavouring to do is to make it absolutely clear that it is the Gregorian date 23 April 1915, so rather than muddying any waters I’m actually bringing some enlightenment to bear. And that surely can only be a good thing. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I think mentioning it with no explanation in the lead is simply going to cause more confusion. If it is to be mentioned, then a footnote in the relevant section seems the most appropriate way. He died aboard a commissioned vessel, which are a law unto themselves- th eonly issue that could arise is the that of the date recorded on the tomb itself, which as you say would probably be inconsistent with that recorded for a local. David Underdown (talk) 09:41, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm a reasonable man and I understand those concerns. I've put it into a footnote now. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

That looks good - thanks for doing that, Jack. It's not something that had ever occurred to me; I would simply have assumed that any relevant dates pertaining to a member of the armed forces serving abroad would be those in force in the UK which is what the services would be governed by. I seem to remember seeing a similar argument relating to time of birth/death of a British person overseas. Daylight saving time was also involved which complicated it beyond human endurance! --Whoosher (talk) 19:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

There probably would have been merit in giving an O.S. death date were it the case his death was an occasion for celebration in Greece and among the Greek people.Cloptonson (talk) 16:47, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Hollinghurst's The Stranger's Child

Under popular culture is included, "The 2011 novel "The Stranger's Child" by Booker prize winning British novelist Alan Hollinghurst features fictional War Poet Cecil Valance who is based on Brooke". This links to James Wood's New Yorker review where Cecil Valance is described as "a Rupert Brooke-like poet". This is not the same thing at all as being "based on Brooke", and having read The Stranger's Child the comparison is obviously false (and beside the point). Valance is like Brooke only insofar as he is a) privileged, b) bisexual, c) a poet and d) victim of an early death. In The Stranger's Child Brooke is referenced as being known by Valance, though in the context of the novel Valance is clearly the lesser poet. Valance is referred to later as "a less neurotic – and less talented – epigone of Brooke", and given the difference in their output and talents, even within the context of the novel, the point is that Valance is a considerably less significant poetic talent than Brooke. I have changed this entry accordingly.Cerreno (talk) 22:27, 18 February 2012 (UTC)Cerreno

Virginia Woolf

"Virginia Woolf boasted to Vita Sackville-West of once going skinny-dipping with Brooke in a moonlit pool when they were at Cambridge together." This implies VW was a student at Cambridge University, which is not the case. Does anyone know what she was doing there? Visiting her brother, maybe? Tsuguya (talk) 09:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Birthplace - possible vandalism

I've just returned the birthplace to being the same as the source, 5 Hillmorton Rd. It had been changed to "113 Lode Road in Bottisham, Cambs" without any source. Something to look out for as this isn't the first time I've found the page showing an unsourced birthplace address. Stuartea (talk) 20:21, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Trim of cultural references

Another editor has (mistakenly in my view) trimmed a vast amount of unreferenced material from the cultural references section [1], much of which could be salvaged and referenced. Johnbod (talk) 01:53, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

A further rescuable item has just been trimmed:

In the movie "Making Love" characters played by Kate Jackson and Michael Ontkean read the poetry of Rupert Brooke with their neighbor Winnie Bates who introduced them to his poetry and with whom they frequently visited.

Carbon Caryatid (talk) 21:53, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Actual Brooke poem read in the M*A*S*H episode

I'm almost positive that Radar O'Reilly read the poem "A Channel Passage" and not "Love" in the episode "Springtime." I remember the comedic content was that he was trying to win the heart of a nurse he was attracted to by reading a poem to her, and then the poem is about getting seasick and throwing up. (But she throws herself on him in passion anyway.) I can't find any references (other than people's blog entries) to support this or any videos of that episode to support my claim, here, but I'm _positive_ this was the poem. Can anyone help find a citation that would support this correction? Cvkline (talk) 04:29, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Brooke Square, and the Immortal/Ideal/Eternal Poet statue

The name of the statue (pictured in the article) in Brooke Square on Skyros is variously given as the Ideal Poet, the Eternal Poet or the Immortal Poet. Some words on the statute, and its name, would be welcome. According to the photo caption of this page, the statue "has a inscription on its base in both English and Greek which reads: To Rupert Brooke the young English poet, who was a noble friend of Greece and of immortal poetry." Scarabocchio (talk) 20:29, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Google maps lists it as "Brooke square" (Πλατεία Μπρουκ) Scarabocchio (talk) 11:28, 18 May 2020 (UTC)