Talk:Abel Tasman Monument

Abel Tasman Monument has been listed as one of the Art and architecture good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: March 16, 2023. (Reviewed version).

A fact from Abel Tasman Monument appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 4 January 2022 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that more than 20 of Ernst Plischke's designs for the Abel Tasman Monument (pictured) in New Zealand's Tarakohe were rejected before he designed a tall, tapering column referencing the Greek funerary stele?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2022/January. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Abel Tasman Monument.

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 21:14, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment or view
Article history

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Abel Tasman Monument

... that Ernst Plischke had over 20 designs rejected for the Abel Tasman Monument in New Zealand's Tarakohe before he designed a tall, tapering column referencing the Greek funerary stele? Source: referenced in the chapter Tasman memorial by Linda Tyler, in the 2008 book Long Live the Modern edited by Julia Gatley
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/John Gray (nightwatchman); Sevastijan Dabović
- Comment: Other hook suggestions welcome.

Created by Schwede66 (talk; both articles), Paora (talk; Abel Tasman Monument), and Gadfium (talk; Tarakohe). Nominated by Schwede66 (talk) at 08:23, 20 December 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Hi Schwede66, reviews follow:

Abel Tasman Monument: article created 17 December; exceeds minimum length; well written; I found no issues with overly close paraphrasing in a spotcheck on some of the online sources; cited inline throughout to what look t be reliable sources;
Tarakohe: article started 19 December; exceeds minimum length; well written; I didn't pick up on any overely close paraphrsing. However some paragraphs in your "Demographics" section are missing citations
Hook: mentioned in article, cited inline, AGF on offline sourcing. Image is used in the article, is freely licensed and quite striking.

If you can fix the citations in Tarakohe then I think this will be good to go - Dumelow (talk) 07:16, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Demographics section is entirely sourced, apart from the areas, to three spreadsheets linked to in the reference at [1] The key to each of these spreadsheets, as given in the article, is 7022539. Most of the demographics in New Zealand geographical articles have links to user-friendly graphs and charts (see for example Pōhara#Pōhara-Abel Tasman statistical area), but these are the larger SA2 statistical areas, and there are no such user-friendly pages for the smaller SA1 areas such as the one covering this area. The areas are sourced to a mapping program [2] which is part of or supported by Statistics New Zealand, and to see the detail you need to select "statistical area", then expand that, select "statistical area 1 - 2018" and for convenience deselect "statistical area 2 - 2022". For the meshblock, you'll need to select and expand "Meshblock" and then "Meshblock - 2018". The meshblock key is 2346707. In each case, you need to zoom in to the appropriate area, and then click on the appropriate key to get the area. My experience is that searching for the key is not supported.-gadfium 08:12, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi gadfium, it's fine that it's not user-friendly as long as it is clear which information is sourced from where. At the moment the reader has no way of finding out where some of the data (eg. male-female ratio, median age, ethnicity etc.) comes from. From the sounds of it you'll just need to add the citation to statsnz.maps.arcgis.com at the end of the relevant paragraphs - Dumelow (talk) 08:47, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ArcGIS is already added immediately following the area details. All the rest is from the spreadsheets, which are referenced at the end of the section. Would you like the reference (reference 2) copied to the end of each paragraph?-gadfium 08:52, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi gadfium, yes please. It's a DYK requirement for a citation at the end of each paragraph - Dumelow (talk) 09:46, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sure Dumelow, I have expanded the references to indicate which spreadsheet each item of information comes from. The overall link is to a download of a zipped file of six .csv files (there are XLS formats available but they are in 62 files in 6 folders, and I don't use them), and we use four of them (I was wrong when I said three above).-gadfium 18:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's great, gadfium. Good to go - Dumelow (talk) 19:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dumelow, thanks for your review. Much appreciated. Thanks, Gadfium, for your contributions. Schwede 66 20:41, 22 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To T:DYK/P7

GA Review

Passed. Ppt91 ^talk 02:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Abel Tasman Monument/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ppt91 (talk · contribs) 19:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to review this interesting article on a public monument in New Zealand! I hope to have the review ready within the next seven days and will keep you posted in case of unexpected delays. Thanks so much. Ppt91 (talk) 19:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66 Wanted to let you know I just finished the first cycle of the review and the review is on hold as I await your response. I'll leave a comment under the GA hold notice on your talk in addition to the ping. Really fascinating article and I look forward to hopefully finishing the process soon! Ppt91 ^talk 22:38, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Ppt91. Appreciate your efforts. My work life has just become "a bit more busy" but I hope that I'll be able to get onto this soon. Schwede 66 00:06, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Right; I've got some time to get going on this. I'll comment within your text to keep things simple and will use green font to identify my words. If, by chance, you are colour blind, please say and I'll do something different. Schwede 66 04:13, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

I've tried to streamline the prose and copy edit throughout for the sake of clarity and precision. I hope it's helpful, but feel free to protest if you disagree with some of my wording. Also, I am known to WP:OVERLINK, though if I suggest a link it is usually is because I believe a given link will help guide the readers within the context of the article, notwithstanding MOS guidelines. Kindly mark each comment when done.

Link memorial Done
Link monument Done
Remove “300 years later” Done
Link tercentenary Done
Link prime minister *winking at the American audience* Done

Prose edit suggestion starting with “Originally referred to…:

"The monument, originally referred to as the Abel Tasman Memorial, was designed by the Austrian architect Ernst Plischke and consists of a large concrete monolith painted in white, which is meant to symbolise a sail." Done apart from the word "Austrian", which I don't think is relevant. I haven't wikilinked "sail" as it's too common a word.

Link bluff Done
Link holiday resort On reflection, I've removed some text including holiday resort; Pōhara has too much of a permanent population for that term to be justified.
Should it be “had been gifted” in this case? I don’t want to make tense inconsistent, though. The process of gifting the land, whilst obviously previously arranged, happened on 18 December 1942. Hence, the tense as shown is appropriate.

Prose edit suggestion starting with “The dignitaries…: My goal here has been to expand a bit upon the "European perspective" and provide specific anchors as far as the history of New Zealand is concerned. Having read the description, it does sound like colonialism should be explicitly mentioned, though I am curious to hear what you think of this edit. We could discuss whether we want to give more context in the body. For the lead, I'd like to keep it simple.

"The Abel Tasman National Park and the monument officially opened to the public on 18 December 1942. Preceding the era of decolonization and the Statute of Westminster Adoption Act of 1947, the original inscription on Plischke’s sculpture had largely overlooked the plight of the colonized Māori people and instead privileged the historical narrative of Eurocentrism."

Note suggestion:

The following be included as a note: "The area holding the monument is part of the national park, although physically separate from it." It’s relevant information though a detail nonetheless and I wonder if it makes sense to include it in the lead. Up to you. I've removed that detail from the lead.

More to follow Ppt91 ^talk 22:47, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66 First batch of comments! More to come soon. Ppt91 ^talk 20:54, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. I've dealt with everything; please let me know whether you are satisfied with my decisions. Schwede 66 04:21, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66 Thanks for your thoughtful reply--color coding as is works great for me! I think that the lead reads well.

One thing I wanted to note: We could discuss whether we want to give more context in the body. For the lead, I'd like to keep it simple. I see your point and agree that my alternative was a bit too heavy, though I think it could still be more precise; might I propose a compromise and that you just include the term "Eurocentric"? For example, "As was typical for the 1940s, the original inscription was influenced by Eurocentric views and overlooked the Māori perspective." or something along those lines; my reasoning behind it is that it would help the unfamiliar reader link right away to the concept of "European perspective" in historiographical terms.

What do you think? And, of course, I very much like your idea of discussing this in more detail in the article. The feedback for other sections is ready, so feel free to proceed whenever convenient! Ppt91 ^talk 18:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems another editor has already made an edit along those lines. Schwede 66 01:49, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Context

General comment: My suggestion would be to change section heading name to “Historical context” and the next section to “Commission” to be more precise. It also feels more in line with several other GA pages on historical monuments. Done

Link “cannon” Not done It's too common a term for my liking.
This section is very detailed and offers a good overview of the historical context to those unfamiliar with the history of New Zealand. I do think, though, that it needs a few short words to keep it focused that will guide the reader more in the context of the monument. Something along the lines of “The monument is located near the site of where Abel Tasman first encountered New Zealand…” And in the same vein, I’d think about a connection between this one and next paragraph, as it ends with a museum that’s not part of the monument. Maybe it could say “Golden Bay Museum in Tākaka, which is located … away from the monument, has a permanent display…” I've worked your suggestions into the prose.
I also think it should say more about Abel Tasman, at the very least that he worked for the Dutch East India Company and a few words about what the company did on behalf of the Dutch; If you want to use content from its en-wiki with attribution it can be “The first multinational corporation, the Dutch East India was had quasi-governmental powers, including the ability to wage war, negotiate treaties, and establish colonies.”) I've added something along those lines.

Thanks a lot; those were really good suggestions! Schwede 66 01:49, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

History

“Tasman's two ships had anchored some four kilometres (2.5 mi) north of the Tata Islands, which are located at the western side of Wainui Bay.” I would move this sentence to the preceding paragraph as it seems like a good thing to mention as soon as you introduce the historical context.
Can we think of an alternative to “popular spot”?

All done. Schwede 66 02:06, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66 Thanks! I've changed the second header to "Commission" per your response above. Re: It seems another editor has already made an edit along those lines. I just saw and happy to keep it this way, as long as the wording works for you. Looking forward to your thoughts on the remaining sections feedback. Ppt91 ^talk 18:08, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Design and construction

Link “unveiling” Not done This seems too common a term and there doesn't appear to be a good article to link to anyway.
Link “socialist” Done
I would include a few more words about Plischke, especially from the modernist standpoint. From what I was able to find on his work, it seems that the simplified and geometrical design of the monument fits into his architectural oeuvre more broadly. Here is one suggestion: "Plischke, whose other commissions in New Zealand included the modernist Sutch House in Wellington, was recognized for 'open, spatial planning that integrated the surrounding landscape and architecture.'" Hirschberger, Karin., Beyerle, Tulga. A Century of Austrian Design: 1900-2005. Germany: De Gruyter, 2013, P. 106 I wasn't convinced about the Sutch House but haven't closed my mind to it; please tell me more if you wish. I agree that more could be said about Plischke and have added something about his international reputation as a modernist architect. Having looked at the Plischke article for inspiration, I've noticed that "Frankl House" was wrong, fixed that, and added something about it in the article for Otto Frankel.
To that end, one or two drawings of the monument would be helpful. I’d suggest: http://www.ernst-a-plischke.at/de/03Werke/03Oeffentliche_Bauten/03TasmanMemorial/03_AbelTasmanMemorial_Plan5.shtml (useful to understand construction), http://www.ernst-a-plischke.at/de/03Werke/03Oeffentliche_Bauten/03TasmanMemorial/03_AbelTasmanMemorial_Plan2.shtml (to show the plan of the area and specific location of the monument), https://digitalnz.org/records/23165811 (a really nice later watercolor by another artist, which shows how the monument is incorporated into the surrounding natural space, something very much in line with modernist architecture). I believe these can all be used under non-free rationale for the article only, specifying the uncertain copyrights as mentioned in digitalnz) There's no way that those drawings would be out of copyright given that Plischke died in 1992. Rather than going the non-free rationale route, what do you think about adding these to the external links section? With regards to the water colour and the "uncertain copyright status" as reported by digitalnz, there is nothing uncertain about it. It's under copyright and the only reason why it says "uncertain" is because it says that under the vast majority of their items; they are totally under-resourced and just don't have the capacity and the staff to give a correct statement. It's the source of a lot of frustration by the New Zealand Wikimedia community because the put the "uncertain" statement under items that are clearly not under copyright...
Link “tablet” Not done I've had a look for a suitable target article and the best I could find is stele, which I didn't think was close enough. What do you think?
link “land donation” Not done This seems too common a phrase and there doesn't appear to be a good article to link to anyway.
Link “cement” Done
Might this also be a good moment to say more about the mention of it being Eurocentric in the lead? I am wary of WP:SYNTHESIS and proposing this because it was mentioned earlier and does seem important to address. I’ve found this source Pool, Ian. Colonization and Development in New Zealand Between 1769 and 1900: The Seeds of Rangiatea. Germany: Springer International Publishing, 2015. where the following quote seems useful “But, we can virtually ignore the only other definite one, the fleeting earlier visit of Abel Janszoon Tasman in 1642, ending abruptly after a ‘violent clash’ with Maori. The major longterm impact of his voyage were mainly negative.” page 153. Happy to try and look for more! I'll think about this some more.

@Schwede66 second batch. More to come soon! Ppt91 ^talk 19:23, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly resolved but there are a couple of questions and I have to get my head around your last bullet point. Schwede 66 08:59, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66 Thanks!

links look fine and happy to concur with your decisions
regarding your own photograph, I love a good birds-eye view! If you'd like to add it, I think it will work very well
as for Plischke's work as an architect, I'd only add a word or two about integrating the surrounding landscape and architecture as something key for modernist architecture which I think readers would find very helpful, but I will leave the final decision as to how much you want to include up to you :-)
your points about copyrights are well taken and this was my main worry; however, I am quite convinced that at least one of them as fair-use would be warranted and be a welcome addition to enhance the visuals of the article; Plischke's work doesn't seem much covered on en-wiki and this is very much relevant to the design you describe in detail; would you be willing to consider one out of the three options I sent as low-res non-free rationale image?
I am looking forward to your thoughts on the last bullet point. I might be going beyond the GA requirements in this case, but I also (unfortunately) see many reviews of WP:VISUALARTS which are too rushed and I guess I err on the side of caution. I hope it's clear from my feedback so far that I see this article as very engaging and of high-quality, so my suggestions are really about driving some of the already existing points home. Ppt91 ^talk 18:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've added another aerial shot to this talk page taken from much further away (i.e. you cannot make out the monument at all but that could be highlighted via a label) which shows its relationship to the Tata Islands. Please let me know which one you prefer. Meanwhile, I've added a design plan to the article. Schwede 66 23:29, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Schwede66 I am drawn to how the monument, surrounded by thick trees, claims its own carved out space in the first one. Plus, the waves are a nice touch. That would be my choice, but I'll respect your decision (including being open to having both of them in). And the design plan works really well while the caption adds important context. Thank you for incorporating my suggestion! Ppt91 ^talk 15:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the aerial photo. Schwede 66 23:30, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unveiling

Might I suggest foregrounding the section content by starting with “The unveiling ceremony for the monument was held on 18 December 1942 with a separate opening for the Abel Tasman National Park the following day.”
Link “unveiling” Not done As per the above reasoning
Link “luncheon” Instead of linking, I have replaced the word with "light lunch" as the target section is somewhat unfocussed.
Link “afternoon tea” Done
Link “the Crown” Done

Otherwise, I think this section reads well. It is detailed and clear.

Section comment: what are your thoughts on adding a new heading "Contemporary era" or something along those lines? That I think would flow nicely if you agree to previous changes of "Historical context" and "Commission"

I've dealt with this section but I'm not sure what you mean by your section comment. Are you suggesting that there should be a new section, with content yet to be written? Schwede 66 22:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66 Not at all! Apologies for the miscommunication. It looks great. Ppt91 ^talk 23:44, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1992 Queen Beatrix visit

"A new interpretation panel was installed for the occasion and the Department of Conservation notes that it is 'interesting to compare the new and old interpretation signs, which reveal how our perspective on how Abel Tasman's visit had changed in the intervening 50 years'" I am not sure the direct quote from Dept of Conservation here works as well and might be better to paraphrase? And can more details about the new sign be added? Perhaps a picture of it, so that the reader can see the differences? And with some elements possibly highlighted in the section.

I have rethought my approach to this section and given that the main topic of the 1992 visit was to implement some changes, I've merged that with the subsequent section "Alterations". I've reworded it to address your concern about the long quote. We don't have a photo of the 1992 interpretation panel. Talking about interpretation panel, this article mentions that new ones were to be installed for the 375th anniversary in 2017. I've done a decent search but cannot find any note as to whether this happened as planned. What we have are photos of interpretation panels as of January 2022. As is usual with these panels, they are undated. I have a mate who back in 2017 worked for DOC (I've seen his name mentioned in relation to the info panel upgrade) and I can ask him whether the panels are indeed from 2017, but that would in itself not be a reliable source. Schwede 66 22:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alterations

link "pavers" Done
link "timber" Not done This seems too common a term
link "ballustrades" Done
link "brass" Done
"New Zealand would then have an internationally significant example of early Modernist architecture" this makes me even more convinced about my comments earlier to expand the section on Plischke and design

Ok, I've had a look for sources and found something relevant on modernist architecture on the Ernst A. Plischke website. This is now incorporated into the "Design and construction" section. I was wary of talking about his approach to architecture in relation to other projects as it has to tie back to this design. The source lists those elements that defined modernist architecture! Schwede 66 23:30, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66 Really impressed with these edits! Thank you for being so receptive to my feedback and finding additional sources as well as incorporating new images. As for linking "jetty" in the last section (my only remaining and a very minor comment), it is totally up to you. Also, wanted to make sure if there is anything on your end that I have not responded to/addressed so far regarding the edits above? Otherwise, I'll do a final check of references/images, though it's really a formality, and I think we should be good to go. :-) Ppt91 ^talk 23:55, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Access

link "jetty"

I've copyedited the text for it to now read "Port Tarakohe", which is the common name for the it. Schwede 66 01:11, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I still want to double check references and images just for the record. Ppt91 ^talk 22:28, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Passed

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

The nominator has addressed issues discussed during the GA review and the article is in excellent shape. I am very happy to pass it. Ppt91 ^talk 02:35, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some final comments from the nominator

Two things. Firstly, I have very much enjoyed working with you and believe that the article is now significantly better through you highlighting areas of possible improvement, including digging out some sources. Whilst I haven't necessarily adopted all your suggestions, it's spurred me on to find an even better way of incorporating your suggestions.

Secondly, when Paora and I were initially working on the article in December 2021, there was one area of confusion that we just couldn't resolve. There were some references to this monument being one of the "national monuments" but we didn't know what that meant and we couldn't find an authoritative source. It turns out that the Ministry for Culture and Heritage maintains such a register, but this particular monument is not on it. Which is surprising because there are many mentions to such a status on the abeltasman.org.nz website. And the supposed 2017 information panel upgrade was being organised by this ministry, so if they have responsibility, why isn't it on the list? It turns out it used to be on that list. The Wayback Machine last shows it on the list on the 31 May 2020 version. By the 16 August 2020, it was gone. I'll try and find out what this means. Schwede 66 01:25, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, easy as. I rang the ministry and got put through to the person who looks after their national monuments. The ministry transferred responsibility of the site to DOC during 2020 and in that process, it was removed from that list. She didn't think that there was anything about this process in the public domain but agreed that they should document it. The removal from the list was in error as it's still a national monument. She'll get that fixed. She'll also get somebody to write a page on what a national monument is. And when I told her that I'm a Wikipedian, she said that I may know her close friend Victoria L., which I of course do. That's New Zealand for you; only ever 2 degrees of separation. Schwede 66 01:44, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66 That's excellent news and likewise! I'll leave a longer on your page as soon as I have a moment to reply properly. :-) Ppt91 ^talk 02:46, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion of edit

Shawn Teller, I was a bit surprised by this edit as "memorial monument" is a strange combination of words. English isn't my native language and maybe it's a MOS:ENGVAR issue, but to my ears, this sounds wrong. Maybe other New Zealand English speakers could provide a perspective: Paora — Chocmilk03:. Schwede 66 22:41, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66: I think that memorial monument is fine as a phrase in NZ English, to distinguish from other types of memorials such as a memorial garden, a memorial plaque or a memorial seat, for example. It could be argued that the word monument is redundant after memorial in the lede given that three words previously the item being discussed is named as the Abel Tasman Monument. I'm not too bothered either way. Paora (talk) 01:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think this change enhances the overall prose in the lead. Just trying to help get it to GA status. Shawn Teller (talk) 02:12, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Shawn Teller Thanks for the suggestion! I agree with @Paora that either way is fine, though using "memorial" in the opening sentence and then "monument" later on in the lead does streamline the prose a bit. Another option would be "commemorative sculpture" or "commemorative monument." Perhaps one of these can be used later in the article if we're looking for a synonym. I'm happy to let @Schwede66 decide. Also @Shawn Teller, as the GAR is ongoing, we'd love to have edits additionally mentioned in the review page so that we can be aware of any changes. :-) Ppt91 ^talk 18:59, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2017 interpretation panels

In the GA discussion above, I'm talking about an interpretation panel update that was planned for 2017. I now know that it didn't happen as we've got a photo of the panel in 2015. It's still the same as it was back then. Schwede 66 22:07, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]