Talk:Al-Kabri

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Merge suggestion?[edit]

Should this be merged with al-Kabri massacre? Tiamut 11:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggest to keep the 1948 incident article, but to merge with the main article on Kabri town.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Merger[edit]

Crusader "Cabra"[edit]

Although it is possible to find sources (e.g. Grootkerk, Khalidi) that identify Cabra with Kabri, the more accepted identification seems to be with Khirbet el-Qabra (176/258). I'm replacing this sentence. Zerotalk 00:12, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Fine, but I think we should keep something like: "Al-Kabri was formerly thought to have been the Crusader place known as Cabra (Khalidi-ref, Grootkerk-ref), but Cabra is presently identified with Khirbet el-Qabra.(ref)" Otherwise some editor with the Khalidi-book will just re-add it. On places like Beitunia, all the different suggested identifications are listed, not just the latest. (Btw, what is the page-no. on Frankel, 1988?) Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:04, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
If I might ask, where did you guys find these sources? Do you have PDFs of them? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 7 Tevet 5775 22:40, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
"Khalidi" refers to the book referenced in the article (Khalidi, 1992, "All that remains"), on p. 19. Grootkerk is on p. 11, (Soloman Grootkerk, 2000, "Ancient sites in Galilee, A Toponymic Gazetteer"). I have Khalidi in hardback (and my scanner is broken at the moment), but I could send you the Grootkerk-part if you email me. Nice to see you back! Cheers, Huldra (talk) 22:54, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! That would be great. I don't want to buy the Khalidi book as it's 50 USD on Amazon and 43 on JSTOR—and I'm very far from the NYPL right now—so it's very much appreciated, haha. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 7 Tevet 5775 23:27, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
We have a problem here, since Khalidi is actually a few years after Frankel. So describing the situation chronologically might not work. Also, Grootkerk (who is an aggregator of sources rather than an originator) has Cabra for Khirbet el-Qabra too (pp.190–191). Unfortunately, neither Grootkerk nor Khalidi give a source. Petersen (Gazetteer of Muslim Palestine, Part 1, p.192) accepts Frankel's judgement. As further confirmation of Le Quiebre, there is Barag (ref 8), who cites "G. Beyer: Die Kreuzfahrergebiete Akko und Galilaea, ZDPV 67 (1945), pp. 183-260", which is worth quoting in full. His text (p.191) has "Le Quiebre (el-kābri)", with the following footnote:
6 km sö von ez-zib. — Röhricht (a. a. O. S. 269 Anm. 4) sucht dagegen hier Cabra, ein Zubehör des Lehens S. Georges de Lebaene, wofür es aber eine bessere Identifikation gibt (s. unten S. 199). Hingegen wird Quiebre mit Caphara gleichzusetzen sein, das als Zubehör des Castellum regis im Jahre 1220 mit an den Deutschen Orden verkauft wurde (s. unten S. 195). Im Jahre 1291 wurden el-kābri und der ihm benachbarte teil tell mefschūch vom Sultan zur frommen Stiftung bestimmt; vgl. Quatremere, Histoire des Sultans Mamlouks II, 1 (1842) S. 131 (verbesserte Lesung bei Clermont-Ganneau, RAO 2 [1898] S. 56). [I'm not sure about the word "mefschūch" as my copy is not clear; the "m" could be "n" preceded by some other letter.] Zerotalk 09:17, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Following Beyer's hint that there is a better identification of Cabra on p199, we find there "Cabbara (Cabra; chirbet kābra)". Zerotalk 09:28, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Guerin has Cabra (Gal. II, p.32). Zerotalk 09:40, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Cabbara? That shows up once in these old Jerusalemite records: [1] (as does Le Quiebre thrice) The language is Old French apparently, which really is very similar to Latin. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 9 Tevet 5775 04:09, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

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