Talk:Malakai Black

Untitled

6'1? Not sure where this height came from. I seem to recall him being billed at 6'0 and have seen this on unofficial sources (rando Reddit threads, Pro Wrestling Wiki). His recent Elite action figure has him listed at 5'11 (back of box is here: https://www.ringsidecollectibles.com/wwe-elite-73-toy-figures-aleister-black-elite73-03.html). In any case, the WWE source, his official bio, that is cited at the moment does not have a height listed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheMauveStorm (talk • contribs) 22:13, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Page move discussion

Since he debuted in All Elite Wrestling (AEW) under the ring name Malakai Black, should we change the article title to Malakai Black? PedigreeWWEFigz87V2 (talk) 12:27, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

No. Aleister Blacks stills the WP:COMMONNAME. Please, this is not "he uses a new name, change the title". --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:39, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

Request a move change after people start to really identify him as Malakai Black and it becomes his common name instead of, "oh hey look its Aleister Black in AEW!" That'll probably take a little bit though since he was well known in WWE. RafaelHP (talk) 00:32, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

How long do we have to wait until we change the article name to Malakai Black? We had this same, exact debate in the "Miro" article before the article got changed from "Rusev." Malakai Black is the current name that he is using, he doesn't own the rights to "Aleister Black" and no one calls him by his previous name. As of the writing of this comment, more people know him by his current name than his previous name. Can we just skip the debate already and change the article? 174.74.165.50 (talk) 20:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Short answer: no you can't skip the debate. But this is not the proper place to hold a debate; if anyone is really serious about moving the article, they must file a request at requested moves. After discussion, if there is a consensus to move, then the article will be moved. But you will probably have opposition, since how do we know the subject won't change his ring name again the day after we move it? And secondly, he is clearly more notable as Aleister Black since he won more matches under that name and he doesn't have an established reputation under his new ring name yet. Hope this helps to answer your question. — Johnnie Bob (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Even if he changes his name tomorrow, it does feel inappropriate to refer to a person by a name that they can not legally use. I would argue that Malakai Black is now his "common name" since that is how he refers to himself and all his co-workers and employer publicly refer to him. In fact, it would actually be illegal for himself, his employer, or his co-workers to refer to him by the supposed common name of "Aleister Black." I would also suggest that a wrestling name is the name of a character, not a person, as wrestling is sports-based theater. The character is not the person, aka, Miroslav Barnyashev does not believe he is was appointed by God Himself to the be the TNT World Champion. Blkgardner (talk) 22:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

1, It's not inaporopiate or illegal. 2, yes, wrestling names are characters. So, do you prefer to rename the article Miroslav Barnyashev? Or Tom Budgen? Most reliable sources call wrestlers by the ringname, not real names. Even when two wrestlers are married, sources say "Seth Rollins andC Becky Lynch are married", not "Colby Lopez and Rebecca Knox are married", so real names are out of the question. Wikipedia has policies for this. One of them is WP:COMMONNAME, which states "it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used". There is also WP:NAMECHANGES "Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to reliable sources written after the name change". However, I think this policie hardly works with pro wrestling, since wrestlers change the name A LOT, different from actors or musicians. For example, Brodie Lee had 5 names in 7 years (Brodie Lee, Luke Harper, Harper, Luke Harper, Mr Brodie Lee). Also, Wikipedia is for everyone, even n-wrestling fans. WWE is the biggest promotion in the world, so probably, the WWE name is gonna be the common name. Matt Cardona is the King of GCW, but he worked in front of 100.000 people at WrestleMania 32. So, more people known him as Ryder rather than Cardona. At the end, I'm sure Malakai Black would be the name of te article, but we can't change the name every single time a wrestler has a new one.--HHH Pedrigree (talk) 13:32, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

His common name is definitely Tommy End. There's no reason his name should have been changed to Aleister Black when he was in WWE for a cup of coffee. He wrestled for 15 years as Tommy End and was in WWE for 4 years. So if you don't want to change is name to Malakai Black for this article, there is zero reason it should stay Aleister Black, and it should be reverted to Tommy End. (Bes2224 (talk) 05:36, 26 August 2021 (UTC))

As End, he wrestled at a independent level. As Aleister, he wrestled in the biggest promotion of the world. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 08:02, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

This would all be resolved by using commonsense and calling wrestlers by their given names from birth. Uncertain why the wrestling entertainers go by stage names when, by and large, it's uncommon to refer to other media personalities outside of wrestling by their stage names on wikipedia. I don't see Steve Urkel being used for Jaleel White; don't see Madea used in place of Tyler Perry; nor do I see Peewee Herman used in place of Paul Reubens. I had this same argument with Wikipedia wrestling fans some 10 years ago, that WWE characters need their own separate article from the real life person they are and not monthly wrestling material on their real life article. It's ridiculous. But those wrestling fans adamantly kept to the stage name/storyline remain on auto-biographical page mindset, so I quickly left it alone as I don't care for Wikipedia disputes and it has been kept that way. Well, here's the result: everyone arguing about which stage name to use when said stage name suddenly changes. I rest my case. Over and out. JudgeJudyCourthouse25 (talk) 04:03, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

No point to change the names for a more obscure ones which aren't the common name. Despite being characters or gimmicks, reliable sources call wrestlers by their ringnames. Even for real life events. [1] --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:19, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

The IIconics have been changed to the The IInspiration, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_IInspiration, why hasn't Aleister been changed to Malakai? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8085:7160:3B80:BCBA:3B28:418D:566C (talk) 09:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Well??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.228.241.1 (talk) 18:21, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

HELLOOOOOO? Anybody reading this crap? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8085:7160:3B80:E127:2DC5:2F5C:F456 (talk) 10:21, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

It's been almost SIX MONTHS since his debut in AEW. Change the name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8085:7160:3B80:11A2:72D5:D68E:4374 (talk) 08:51, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 28 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. No such user (talk) 12:47, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

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Aleister Black → ? – I believe this wrestlers WP:COMMONNAME should be reverted back to Tommy End. His Twitter is @TommyEnd, he wrestled for 15 years across the globe as Tommy End, and when he came back to AEW they called him Tommy End at first, because the announce team was unsure of his new ring name. If we use the model set by Miro and Christian Cage, at minimum his name should change to his new ring name Malakai Black. Bes2224 (talk) 03:09, 28 August 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. Havelock Jones (talk) 09:02, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't understand. You want to change the name because he isn't using Aleister anymore, but propose a name that he isn't using neither (Tommy End).... Also, he wrestled as End on an independent level, in small promotions. Not the same with WWE, he was presented in front of a worldwide audience. Seriously, wait. Wikipedia has policies, we can't change names of the articles every month. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Oppose per above. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:06, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Support — Add to this proposal, the bigger argument and proposal to make separate articles as between the performer and their wrestling gimmick(s). Wrestling gimmicks should be treated no differently than a sitcom or movie character. "Mankind (wrestling gimmick)" or "Mick Foley (wrestling gimmicks)" should be treated differently from "Mick Folely" the real-life person. "Batista (wrestling gimmick)" should be separate article from Bautista in general as an person (actor, personal life, wrestler, etc). Mike Mizanin had a full storied background outside of wrestling on The Real World and the Challenge, but now it is bunched up with monthly wrestling updates when that should be under "The Miz (wrestling gimmick)."JudgeJudyCourthouse25 (talk) 14:24, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Are you the one who is gonna create an article for every gimmick a wrestler had? Like Bret Hart (character) and Bret Hart (wrestler) or Ronda Rousey (character)?Or Nic Nemeth (wrestler), Dolph Ziggler (character) and Nicky (character)? Or 4 articles, like Tom Budgen, Tommy End, Aleister Black and Malakai Black? Also, what kind of information would have these articles? Batista is a character who won 6 world championships and had several feuds / Dave Bautista is a former pro wrestler who won 6 world championships and had several feuds... pretty much the same information, but with more ayfabe and in-universe. Also, what's the point if even reliable sources like CNN call wrestlers by their ringname, not their real names (like Seth Rollins and Becky Lynch)? --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 17:22, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Only their most notable gimmicks would warrant their own articles, otherwise just be mentioned briefly on their autobiographical page with nothing in-depth about them. Most wrestlers don't have more than one or two noteworthy gimmicks, so not a lot of work. In rare cases, as with Mick Foley and Bray Wyatt, it would require a little more work as they have had a few notable gimmicks. The performer's autobiographical page would briefly cover all the varying characters they transitioned into, as in Glenn Jacobs becomes Mike Unabomb (<--no wiki page, not an link), then Isaac Yankem (<-- no wiki page, not an active link) and then struck it successful when he became Kane (<--link to wiki page describing the fictional character, his entrances, his varying looks, his matches, etc, etc, etc) then move on to other stuff in their career as far as the autobiographical Glenn Jacob page like his political run. This carries the same logic in how varying skits on The Carol Burnett Show are covered. The notable skits have become their own articles, as shown with Went with the Wind! and with The Family (sketch). Less common one-off sketches were never made into their own articles. It's also already common practice outside of the wrestling wing of wikipedia in terms of fictional TV characters, as shown with actress Betty White (autobiographical article) separate from her Rose Nylund character on the Golden Girls and Sue Ann Nivens character on Mary Tyler Moore. And yes, "Bret Hit Man Hart" should have a separate article from "Bret Hart." "Randy Orton (Viper)" "Randy Orton (Legend Killer)" should be separate articles from "Randy Orton." The Viper and Legend Killer are his only two noteworthy gimmicks as Randy's face gimmick back when he used the theme song "Burn in my Light" was negligible. JudgeJudyCourthouse25 (talk) 20:41, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I see no reason to create separated articles. No reason to have 3 articles about Randy Orton or Bret Hart. You have a section called pro wrestling style and persona" where you can write about their characters. As I said, most wrestlers are presented by their ringname. What's the point of talking about Bret Hart (son of Stu Hart, Brother of Owen, trained in the Hart dungeon and multi-times world champion) and Bret Hitman Hart (son of Stu Hart, Brother of Owen, trained in the Hart dungeon and multi-times world champion)? Their ringname works as his stagename. [2] [3] Also, here says, for example, Malakai Black and Zelina Vega are married, which isn't true. Bugden and Trinidad are married, not the characters, but they are named by their ring names. Even when The Undertaker makes out-of-character interviews, he is presented as The Undertaker, not Mark Calaway. Even when wrestles passed away, they are called by their ringnames. Randy Savage, roddy Piper... When news are written about Jaleel White, not about Steve Urkel. When Jaleel White makes an interview, he is not presented as Urkel. But when news and interviews are about Stefani Germanotta, she is presented as Lady Gaga, a WP:STAGENAME. --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 22:20, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

I nearly forgot to respond to your objection as I got wrapped up with one of the articles you sent yesterday. But anyways, your point is well taken as relates to WP:COMMONNAME. Though if we're to be so strictly adhering to this policy, somebody might want to get on it and address the following Wikipedia articles that aren't presented in accordance with this policy: Phil McGraw, Sean Combs, Mehmet Oz, Laura Schlessinger, Judy Sheindlin, Omarosa Manigault Newman, etc. Also, I think the trouble in comparing WWE entertainment (what is essentially a scripted soap opera that resolves conflicts with choreographed wrestling) to a singer like Lady Gaga is that those singers truly see themselves as the person they are portraying so that there's an element of reality to it. Thus, a singer is very unlikely to change their stage name, but for rare cases. In direct contrast, the vast majority wrestlers will experiment with altering wrestling names and gimmicks, even once they are established (Sid Eudy, Viscera (wrestler), Big Show, Dustin Rhodes, etc) or just move on from the wrestling gimmick altogether (Glenn Jacobs, Terri Runnels, Tommy Lister Jr.). The end result is a lot of article name transitioning. Combined with that, a lot of subjective arguments on talk pages as to which gimmick name is most popular. JudgeJudyCourthouse25 (talk) 00:46, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, WP:COMMONNAME - "the name that is most commonly used" - is not Tommy End. McPhail (talk) 11:46, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

It's a multiple choice. Do you also opposed Malakai Black? (Bes2224 (talk) 15:20, 8 September 2021 (UTC))

I'd say it's probably WP:TOOSOON for Malakai Black. McPhail (talk) 18:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. As per HHHPedrigree. IW. (talk) 14:27, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose for Tommy End as he was well known under that name for many years on the independent circuit but received far more coverage under the name Aleister Black. Strong Oppose to Malakai Black which is a variation of his WP:COMMONNAME that he's only used for a few months. ♡RAFAEL♡^(talk) 21:08, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose as he as best known as Aleister Black. PedigreeWWEFigz87V2 (talk) 00:08, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

His AEW release

So why hasn't the page been updated since he left the sh!thole known as AEW? 50.102.204.4 (talk) 20:36, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

It hasn't been officially confirmed yet. He's still listed on the AEW roster on the official website. So far it's rumoured and "reportedly". There will probably be an official confirmation shortly. — Czello 21:15, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Boy, this comment aged well. Bes2224 (talk) 07:30, 1 August 2023 (UTC)