This is an archive of past discussions about Alex Morgan. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
The following discussion is copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. This seems a more appropriate place to discuss the deletion of Alex Morgan's soccer statistics, especially the deletion of statistics regarding her assists. There is no question that the deleted statistical information is from a reliable source, being from the official statistics published by the U.S. women's national soccer team and the National Women's Soccer League. The issue is whether assists should be included in wikipedia articles. I think assists should be included. Although it may not be true in Europe, in the U.S. assists are consistently and accurately recorded and are important indicators of a player's accomplishments. Opponents cite "guidelines" and "consensus" that statistics on assists should not be included in wikipedia articles. Additional comments are welcome.[[User:Smallchief|Smallchief]] ([[User talk:Smallchief|talk]] (talk) 00:27, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
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An editor raised concerns about the stats on the Alex Morgan. First, it's not in a statistics section. Second, it includes minutes played and assists and in one section, goals per minute. Third, it doesn't follow the formatting at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players. An editor, Smallchief (talk·contribs), stated that he likes the stats and insists that they stay. He pointed out that there were sources even though they're not completely provided. I discussed and found the problems and after explaining the situation, removed the superfluous content over five edits (I hate editing tables). They were reverted without actually reverting. I simply reverted the edit as not being in-line with the guideline and this community's consensus. I'm out of it now. Feel free to engage the activity or leave it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:03, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
I would point out several things concerning User:Walter Görlitz deletion of statistical material regarding Alex Morgan, specifically statistics on her assists for club and country.
First, Alex Morgan is one of the most prominent women soccer players in the world, and this article has been rated as a "good article" by various working groups. It has received that good article ratings despite having statistics on assists included in the statistical tables of her performance with the U.S. women's national soccer team (NWT) and the National Women's Soccer League (NWSL), as well as predecessors to the NWSL. That would indicate that the good-article reviewers had no problem with assists being including in the statistical material
The fact that Alex Morgan is rated a good article, would also seem to indicate that the concern Mr. Gorlitz expresses is a minority or fringe view.
Secondly, the source of the assist statistics are the web pages of the U.S. women's national soccer team (NWT) and the National Women's Soccer League (NWSL). They are official statistics and their sources meet the requirements of being reliable. As the NWT and the NWSL compile and publish such statistics, who are we, the editors of wikipedia, to contest their relevance in an article about female soccer players?
Third, It was Mr. Gorlitz who deleted the statistical material after giving an assertion that he was the authority of WP:Footy. That is questionable at best. And he deleted that material and refused to re-consider his deletion, even after another wikipedian User:Hmlarson intervened in the discussion offering to look for a solution.
Fourth, there was no consensus in the discussion on Talk:Alex Morgan that the statistics on assists should be deleted.
Fifth, I am not an argumentative or stubborn person. I believe in consensus and common sense solutions. I have devoted my 25,000 plus edits to creating and improving articles (and in this case preserving important information). I have never been banned or blocked. I am quite willing to work with other people on this subject, but the burden of proof before deleting statistical material from reliable and official sources should rest with Mr. Gorlitz -- the reverter. Let's start from there.
The question therefore is whether a male-dominated European group has the right to to dictate to Americans what is included in articles about American women players and American women's teams. You may have problems with different standards in Europe for calculating assists, We don't have that problem in the United States. The statistics we have for assists are official, consistent, and accurate.[[User:Smallchief|Smallchief]] ([[User talk:Smallchief|talk]] (talk) 22:21, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
And for the record, good article status means nothing. The review for good articles does not take into account the layout of the article except if some section like references is missing. So appealing to that is a waste of time. As a result, they are fringe and the consensus is mainstream. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:29, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Not sure why Smallchief is making assumptions on the makeup of the project, football is a global sport, and this is a longstanding consensus on the project. Unless the consensus changes assists should not be included. S.A. Julio (talk) 22:44, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Further, where did I indicate that I was the authority of WP:Footy? I simply pointed to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players and showed that assists, minutes played and goals per minute were not in the guideline. Your argument was the same as above. I responded that MLS records assists, but most MLS player stats sections do not because of the guideline. Nowhere do I recall indicating that I was the authority of WP:Footy, but I'd be happy to see the diff that shows where I made that claim. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:18, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Comment With no links to consensus discussion(s), it's just a repeating of Kante and S.A. Julio's perspectives. For more information about what consensus is, please see Wikipedia guideline WP:CONACHIEVE. It's not clear why the conversation was re-started here rather than kept on the Alex Morgan talk page where the issue was being discussed. I'd recommend keeping it there rather than posting in multiple places. For a more thorough and current consensus, please see the WP:CON policy for how that is achieved. Hmlarson (talk) 23:20, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
With no links to the consensus? I have linked you to the project. Check the archives of the discussion on the various talk page. Why in the world did you decide to copy the current discussion from the project to here? First, it has no edit history. Second, it's not sufficiently visible to those interested in the topic. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:33, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
File:Wendy Acosta; Alex Morgan.jpg Nominated for Deletion
Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.
If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.
This is a horrible picture of her, she is really photogenic and deserves a better picture. Sadly Wikipedia's image use policy is very confusing and I cant find an image that fits the rules. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakhutch87 (talk • contribs) 17:54, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
What do you find confusing about the policy? If an image isn't free (as in speech), we can't use it. It's simple. PowersT17:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
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Thanks for the work on this article, well done. Pictures are good. Click on 'images' under a Google-search for more pictures. -- AstroU (talk) 22:21, 23 June 2015 (UTC) -- PS: I'll be 'watching' and helping edit.
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To whomever keeps changing her assists from 4 to 5 in this tournament, please do your research. If you add up all her assists in the Olympics from the Official Match Reports it adds up to 4 not 5. The article that you sourced has incorrect data and her assists were incorrectly mentioned on NBC by Bob Costas and various sources on twitter including the FoxSoccer handle. She tied for the team-lead with 4 assists and that is a fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indierinrin (talk • contribs) 22:29, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
With at least 3 references from newspapers around the United States (not just Oregon), it's notable. Strange that every other sentence in the article is not held to the same standard you are using here - particularly as it's not backed by any Wikipedia policy or guideline. Hmlarson (talk) 20:49, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
At least? Well then let's get that stand-alone article so we know that the award is notable and not just the individual for whom it's named. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't know if it's a consensus WP:FOOTY guideline, but we generally avoid listing honors that aren't official end-of-season awards of a competition or a governing body (the ESPY is obviously an exception that may be worth discussing). This is a regional award with kind of goofy criteria. The question I would ask is, does winning this honor set her apart from her peers in a significant way? Does this put her in a different class from others? I don't think so - as far as I can tell, this award may as we'll be renamed "If Not Alex Morgan, Then Megan Rapinoe Award",though I'm sure opinions may vary. Mosmof (talk) 00:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Is it just the Honors & awards section that you are opposed to listing it in? Would you be opposed to including it in the Thorns section? Hmlarson (talk) 20:49, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I wouldn't include it in the article myself, but I wouldn't have a huge problem with it being mentioned in the body. I do think Honors & Awards should be kept to national/league Player of the Year or Best XI honors. Mosmof (talk) 00:06, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
There's no reason to. There's no need to link the province. Where Cancún is linked, the state of Quintana Roo is not linked. Moenchengladbach is linked, but not North Rhine-Westphalia. The key here is that only when discussing the United States, which is a confederation of independent states, is it common practice to link the state. Canada is the actually the state. Finally, provinces and states are politically different. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:29, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
Stop pushing your pov. The format is clearly shown in wp:canstyle. Stop reverting. I am already at a point where I can report you for 3RR. Alaney2k (talk) 00:56, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
It's not violating the policy to revert the actions of someone who has violated 3RR. Now, if you want to move on, please read up. Canada IS a federation of states. They are called provinces, but they are basically the same as the states of the US. Alaney2k (talk) 15:13, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
That's the first time I've heard that excuse. If you want, you can take it to the edit warring notice board but be prepared to be blocked per WP:BOOMERANG. Canada is not a federation of states. I live here and I'm an active member on the Canada project. You keep trying to convince yourself you're right though. Provinces and states have very different political rights. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:05, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Whatever floats your boat, Walt. It's not a question of right or wrong. Your logic can also apply to the US states, but the US states are mentioned. It is just a convention. Canadian provinces and American states are mentioned. The only place it doesn't make sense is in a table where space is limited, and all provinces and states of all countries are omitted. Alaney2k (talk) 23:07, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
First, don't pretend you're my friend and not use my full name. My close friends know not to so.
Second, you had to make the US states the same as Canadian provinces so I made the all the same by reverting. And you gave me license by writing, "whatever floats my boat". I suspect you're starting a new edit war now. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:59, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
I came here from WP:3O, but I can't officially offer an opinion as I was just dealing with Walter Görlitz on another article. Nevertheless:
In Canada, the province is used in exactly the same way as the state is in the United States. Most other countries are different, including Europe, but Canada and the U.S. have this in common. It's also listed right here: Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Canada-related_articles#In_article_text. Saying that the U.S. is federated might be a distinction without a difference, as Canada is also a federation (See Canadian Confederation). What's important is the convention in use in those countries, which really is the same.
For some of the larger cities, such as Vancouver or Toronto, the province isn't strictly necessary, but the same can be said for New York or Los Angeles. In a list, the province/state should be included for consistency. I've reverted the latest change on the article and restored the province/state name. Bradv15:00, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
3O Response:WP:CANSTYLE does say to use the "City, Province/Territory" format. I don't think that the fact that it uses the word "subject" means it doesn't apply to "places where matches are played". However, in the discussion at WT:CANADA, a number of editors said that articles should be left whatever way they were written, that "City, Canada" or "City, USA" are by no means uncommon, and that as long as articles were consistent between the USA and Canada it didn't matter which format was used. Remember that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and that WP:CANSTYLE is "a summary of current styles and conventions", not a set of iron-clad rules. My recommendation, therefore, is that the original format should be used, if it was consistent between the USA and Canada. On the other hand, if the majority of US venues were in the "City, State" format, then it is appropriate to change all US and Canadian venues to that format. Scolaire (talk) 16:26, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Scolaire. Unfortunately, the article was not consistent. Edmonton's province WAS shown, but Toronto and Vancouver's was not. Most US states were shown, some were not. The article as it stands at this point is now consistent. Alaney2k (talk) 16:53, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
That would be inconsistent. It would follow US style but not Canada style. That would be US-centric and this is an international encyclopedia. It would be consistent if neither the US or Canadian locations had the state or province listed. But it's more informative and helpful to have the provs and states listed. Why does that go against your grain? Alaney2k (talk) 05:51, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
You're mistaken. There is no Canada style. What you call "Canada style" is about use of the terms in Canadian-related articles, and this is not that. It's not that goes against my grain. It irks me, as a Canadian, to see the province omitted, but that is the most common format. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:59, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Wait. It irks you to see the province omitted, but you're still fighting to omit it? You acknowledge that adding it is the preferred style in Canadian-related articles, but you still say it's not the common format? That's very hard to understand. Scolaire (talk) 09:36, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
My Edit
I made an edit on this article on a part that included the words "French side champion" and I tried to change it to "French Ligue 1 champion side". I think "French Ligue 1 champion side" sounds like a better phrase because at first the original text brought up some confusion to me until I knew that the team was the 2015-16 season defending champion. So my suggestion is that someone change it to "French defending champion side". I don't want to do it to avoid getting more negative messages that could possibly get me blocked from editing. Matthewishere0 (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
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It does not fit with the guidance of WP:Football/Players. I will remove the Assists, minutes played etc. unless there is a good reason for inculding them. Skybluecm (talk) 19:14, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
No, international history is on the national team pages. Under stats. NWSL Club states (2013-2016) are found in a publication called NWSL Almanac. 2017 stats can be found on NWSL website. There is no reason whatsoever that assists should be removed with the Wikipedia page. If US soccer and NWSL sees fit to compile and publish such stats, who are we to question their authenticity and importance? [[User:Smallchief|Smallchief]] ([[User talk:Smallchief|talk]] (talk) 15:47, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
There is no reason whatsoever that assists should be included on these Wikipedia articles without a reliable source to support them. As for who are we, we are WP:NOTSTATS, and that's an official policy. If you want to add all the stats another site includes, start a blog. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:06, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Three things further. @Skybluecm: was right to raise this and reference the guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players. That is a general WP:CONSENSUS and would require a new consensus to change. It would not be wise to go rogue on that. However, feel free to go to the talk page either of that guideline or the project itself to see if assists are acceptable or not. This talk page has a small audience, but those talk pages are more focused and will garner a larger, more interested audience. Be aware that they may argue that assists are not in the infobox either, so you might want to be prepared for that argument.
That the assists are incomplete is problematic and it shows that not all teams and leagues feel the same way about that specific statistic. If it can't be complete, it makes sense not to include at all.
The NWSL and the National women's soccer team both collect and publish statistics on assists. That makes those statistics both official and reliable and consistent. To erase them would be to delete relevant and important information. Taking away info on assists would damage the article. Why in heaven's name would anybody want to do that? [[User:Smallchief|Smallchief]] ([[User talk:Smallchief|talk]] (talk) 19:52, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Please learn how to indent. I'm tired of fixing your indent levels.
Did you read and understand my comparison of MLS keeping assist stats and the lack of those stats on player articles?
Did you read that you'll need to change consensus of the FOOTY Project to save these stats?
And? Have you noticed that I'm also one of the most active editors on Wikipedia. I make a lot more edits than the average editor and follow the community standards in a higher percentage of my edits than you do. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:55, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Question@Walter Görlitz: when you write "reference the guideline at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players. That is a general WP:CONSENSUS" - can you point to the consensus discussion? Personally, I'm fine with the assists being provided given appropriate references are included. Hmlarson (talk) 20:36, 22 September 2017 (UTC) The club summary table there doesn't look like the one here upon comparison. Will you be fixing Morgan's to match? Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players doesn't include any International tables. Would you be interested in working together to get those implemented in the "suggested layout"? Hmlarson (talk) 20:41, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
I won't be fixing Morgan's, no. The discussion at the project has happened over time. Check that talk page and the talk pages at the project. As for an exact match, not yet. Too much effort involved in that and I don't have the time. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:55, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Not making a comment on whether or not I would delete them. I will state that assists, minutes played and goals per minute are not part of the guideline for a stats section. The lack of refs is simply the most egregious problem. That you won't find them for the Olympique Lyonnais season is another problem. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:28, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
There's no reason to ping me either. This article is on my watchlist to prevent vandalism to the article. I'll see any comments left here. And bullets are nut used for talk page discussions. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:30, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
@Walter Görlitz: (including ping so other editors know who I'm addressing) what "guideline for a stats section" are you referring to when you say "assists, minutes played and goals per minute are not part of the guideline for a stats section"? Can you provide a link? Hmlarson (talk) 23:33, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
I just archived the ignorant copy of the discussion of a FOOTY guideline because it does not belong here. This is not where footy guidelines are discussed. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:34, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
Why has the subsection "Controversy" detailing Alex Morgan being forcibly removed from Epcot on October 5, 2017, for "aggressive" and "highly impaired behavior" been removed from this article?Ronsword (talk) 15:37, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
This is the entry: On Sunday, October 1, 2017, Morgan was one of a group of fellow athletes visiting Epcot in Orlando, Florida, who were described in an incident filed by police as being "impaired and verbally aggressive....toward staff and around guests". The group, including Morgan, were removed from the park for "trespass" and no charges were filed. According to a deputy, Morgan was "yelling, screaming and....appeared to be highly impaired". The athlete later posted an apology in a Tweet which read, in part, "I will learn from this and make sure it does not happen again".[1]Ronsword (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
Glad to help. Thanks for the addition. It was well-written! I'm not great at prose, but can work with style and similar. This worked well. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:10, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Please note that I have accidentally typed in the 'enter' key during the latest edit. It should have said something like this:-
/*top*/ Soccerway says she has played 29 total games for Orlando Pride'
I'd like to update the International Goals section to match those sections for other players. Specifically, I'd like to add a column for who gave the assist. I would plan to just overhaul the entire table to match the one here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallory_Pugh#International_goals
This would be a pretty big endeavor so I don't want to do it if someone has an objection to it. WoSoFan (talk) 18:01, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, I did read through that discussion, but I guess I thought this was different because I'm not trying to report the number of assists Alex Morgan had. I'm just trying to include the person who was credited as giving the assist to Morgan's international goal. That information is documented in the match reports. And about Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players, the template page doesn't include a table for international goals. So I'm not sure what the guidelines are on the international goals table. If anyone knows, can you share where that template might be? Are you suggesting that the international goals table should be entirely removed from these international players? WoSoFan (talk) 01:13, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
It is different. We attempt to make articles look similar which is why there's a manual of style. Take a look at a larger article, such as Lionel Messi#International. It attempts to honour that layout. A slightly different approach at Mesut Özil#International and the following section. Those are the two most common layout styles. You should raise the fact that there is no international section in the layout guide. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:23, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Already done, but thank you. —Nizolan (talk · c.) 01:40, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
3O Response: WP:CANSTYLE does say to use the "City, Province/Territory" format. I don't think that the fact that it uses the word "subject" means it doesn't apply to "places where matches are played". However, in the discussion at WT:CANADA, a number of editors said that articles should be left whatever way they were written, that "City, Canada" or "City, USA" are by no means uncommon, and that as long as articles were consistent between the USA and Canada it didn't matter which format was used. Remember that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and that WP:CANSTYLE is "a summary of current styles and conventions", not a set of iron-clad rules. My recommendation, therefore, is that the original format should be used, if it was consistent between the USA and Canada. On the other hand, if the majority of US venues were in the "City, State" format, then it is appropriate to change all US and Canadian venues to that format. Scolaire (talk) 16:26, 23 November 2016 (UTC)