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|WikiProject Biography / Actors and Filmmakers||(Rated C-class)|
Alexander Ludwig's Parents
I reverted some edits that added some information about Alexander Ludwig’s parents. They were great additions. Unfortunately, they fail several Wikipedia policies. Because the wikiarticle Alexander Ludwig is a biography of a living person, it must satisfy all of the following policies and guidelines: WP:BLPCITE, WP:BLP, WP:V, and WP:RS.
There was no citation provided that indicated the mother’s maiden name, an addition which would certainly add depth to the wikiarticle. Unfortunately, without a verifiable and reliable citation, it cannot be added. That means that we cannot use it for his mother’s maiden name.
The citation regarding Harald Ludwig does not indicate that he is the same Harald Ludwig that is the father of the wikiarticle’s subject, Alexander Ludwig. Thus the statement and the accompanying citation fail each of WP:BLPCITE, WP:BLP, WP:V, and WP:RS. Also, in a small Google search, I could find no source that connected the Harald Ludwig that is a principal of Macluan and Lions Gate Entertainment and our wikiarticle’s suject, Alexander Ludwig. This is unfortunate because having a father who sits on the board of directors and is co-chairman of a large enterprise within the entertainment industry would certainly be an important piece of info on an article about an actor. — SpikeToronto 22:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
- If you were to research long enough, you would see that on IMDB it lists the actress Sharlene Martin as his mother. The private school he attends in West Vancouver, Collingwood, has his parents' names on the lists of Gold $100,000-$250,000 donors. There is also photographic proof of him in a photo with a younger sibling. I obviously do not provide links to their addresses in respect to their Ludwig family's privacy. There are articles about Harald Ludwig being his father that can easily researched. Considering that he lives in West Vancouver like Harald Ludwig, it should be a bit understandable that is his father. Sharlene S. Martin is listed as his mother as well, because that is her maiden and she fits the profile on both ends. Being from Vancouver, married to Harald H. since 1991, owner of the same home in W. Vancouver. Sharlene Martin & Sharlene Ludwig own the same property at an address in Whistler, BC as businessman Harald H. Ludwig. That is enough proof as interviews mention Alexander vacationing in Whistler often and his mother being a former actress. Her maiden name in legal listings is Martin. Here is photographic proof of Macluan chairman Harald H. Ludwig with actor Alexander. Here is the Macluan chairman by himself under an elaborate business profile. I hope that helps.126.96.36.199 (talk) 06:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Let me break this down:
Internet Movie Database (IMDB)
If you take a look at WP:RSN, the place at Wikipedia where one queries the reliablity of sources, you would discover a dichotomy where IMDB is concerned. If you look through the archives at RSN, you will note that the consensus seems to be that while IMDB is acceptable for the purposes of an actor/actress/director/producer/etc.’s filmography, it is not acceptable for biography. Thus, Wikipedia articles cannot use IMDB’s biographical information as a verifiable reference/citation.
The Rest: Synthesis & Original Research
When you read WP:SYN and WP:OR — Wikipedia’s policies/guidelines on synthesis and original research, respectively — you will understand why the rest of your comment cannot be applied to this article. While I would probably draw the same inferences from the same data that you have regarding everything you have said (and yes, I have seen the same Collingwood brochures and lists), we are not allowed to draw inferences in writing wikiarticles because doing so violates WP:SYN amd WP:OR.
By the way, why don’t you at least use the Collingwood reference to add a comment to the article about the school he goes to and any added information their sources may provide such as sports, drama, clubs, etc.
I think that the points and the conclusions you draw from the photo are also correct, and may not run afoul of WP:SYN and WP:OR. However, I am just not sure how one can go about using a photograph as a reliable source at Wikipedia. Perhaps you should enquire at WP:RSN.
- Thanks! I think I understand what you mean now. I get why Wikipedia dislikes original research and I'll use discretion when editing. They are very private people understandably due to their status and I've found a lot of this information I know, wouldn't be something that most people, who don't personally know or interact with him have awareness of. It was by coincidence I connected all three people: Harald, Sharlene Martin, and Alexander. Most of the father's articles make no mention of him being Alex's father. The mother being an actress unusually has little information about her personal life. Alexander has mentioned he goes to Collingwood and lives in West Vancouver. He never said his father owns/at seniors pos. in $1 billion worth of businesses in the world. He has only modestly mentioned his father being a businessman and his mother being an actress. For someone that is the eldest child of a very powerful & wealthy couple, I found it odd no one had that information listed on Wikipedia and wanted to make that known about his background. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 04:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- I’m glad we were able to help you get a handle on Wikipedia’s myriad rules. I must admit that it took me some time to get to understand them myself. As for why Alexander Ludwig may not mention his parents much, and his father’s position in particular, I think it may be because (a) we live in an era of the green-eyed monster and knowing that he comes from such wealth might turn not only fans against him, but casting directors as well, and (b) if his father is indeed the co-chairman of Lions Gate Entertainment (see here), this might again lead to jealous claims that his career was benefitting from a nepotism boost. Thus, I can understand a desire to shield certain details from public view so that the kid’s career/work can be judged on its own merits and not filtered through a sieve of other people’s jealousy and envy. In any event, we still have not come across anything establishing that the Harald Ludwig that is Alexander Ludwig’s father is the same Harald Ludwig that is connected to Lions Gate, etc. — SpikeToronto 08:27, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Beach House Restaurant
I reverted the edit that added information regarding the Beach House Restaurant in West Vancouver. While this would be an interesting addition, Wikipedia policies require a verifiable, reliable source. A private source, to which only the wikieditor adding the information is privy, does not satisfy WP:V. Moreover, because this is a biography of a living person, statements must — in addition to WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:CITE — also satisfy WP:BLPCITE and WP:BLP. The statement about the restaurant, unaccompanied by a verifiable reference/citation, does not satisfy these policies. Finally, ownership of businesses and properties are matters of public records. Thus, private records do not have to be relied on in the first place, especially as they would not satisfy the policies mentioned earlier. — SpikeToronto 22:14, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
- Duly noted. I did find a much easier and more public way of displaying the property he owns and since it's not a private residence I will release it. The restaurant is only 5 km from their main home, so it makes sense it's his property if listed as such.184.108.40.206 (talk) 06:38, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
- I've removed it again. That statement is not supported by the source. All that source says is a person named Herald Ludwig is the president of Beach House Restaurant in West Vancouver. It could be any Harald Ludwig. For it to be considered for inclusion in the article a reliable source would have to explicitly state that Alexander's family owns the Beach House Restaurant at Dundrave Pier. - kollision (talk) 12:28, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
- (responding to message on my talk page) Firstly, I have nothing against IP editors and actually look forward to them contributing constructively. However, the statement you added cannot be included simply because it is not supported by the source. Saying, a source states that Alexander father is Harald Ludwig and another source states that Harald Ludwig is the owner of the Beach House Restaurant is unacceptable. That is synthesis of published material that advances a position since neither source states that the Harald Ludwig which owns the restaurant is the same as the Harald Ludwig who is Alexander's father. So, what you did violates two of Wikipedia's core content policies verifiability and no original research. These two policies, along with neutral point of view, are core policies which have been around for more than seven years and should be followed at all times. I have nothing against the readdition of the statement as long as a reliable source which explicitly states that Alexander's family owns the Beach House Restaurant at Dundrave Pier is provided. - kollision (talk) 01:28, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Kollision. The problem with the source provided is that while it does indeed show that a Harald Ludwig owns the Beach House Restaurant, and other sources tell us that Alexander Ludwig’s father’s name is Harald Ludwig, the source regarding the restaurant does not tell us that the two Haralds are one in the same. What we need is a source that tells us that the Harald Ludwig that owns the resto is the Harald Ludwig that is Alexander Ludwig’s father. For instance, if you could find an interview with Alexander in which he mentions his family’s restaurant, by name, then you could re-add your sentence and provide the two citations, the one that says that Harald Ludwig owns the resto, and the other wherein Alexander says his father owns the same named, restaurant. That is not synthesis and would not violate WP:SYN. But, using two unconnected refs — one in which we learn that Alex has a dad named Harald, and another that says a Harald Ludwig owns the resto — in such a way can be construed as both synthesis and original research, violating both WP:SYN and WP:OR.
Alternatively, if you could find a single article from a reliable source that says that this is the family restaurant of Alexander Ludwig, then bingo! you could put the statement in to the article citing that source.
I am sorry that Wikipedia seems so bureaucratic and rule-bound, especially as relates to biographies of living persons (BLPs), but these rules and guidelines are what makes Wikipedia an encyclopedia and not a tabloid. Readers need to know that everything written in a wikiarticle, and especially BLPs, is supported by verifiable references/citations. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 06:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oh okay. Thank you then. I realize that the initial way of knowing this information from private legal Canadian records can't be released on a public encyclopedia. By private searches, he shows up as the only Harald H. Ludwig in Vancouver, CA. He is connected to the ownership of several large and small businesses in Canada. That restaurant was listed as one of them. The only thing is that I can't provide such sources to Wikipedia or I could spark a lawsuit. The publicly researchable sources are useless and prove to not be enough for Wikipedia guidelines, so I might well forget them. The thing with actor is that he is very mum about his parents careers and lifestyle when interviewed, so for that reason there's not enough "publicly listed" legitimate information. The fact he's not even in a project or has finished in the last 6 months tells me that a new interview is highly unlikely to hear anything. I'm sure when it's said in an article, I'll provide info.220.127.116.11 (talk) 04:01, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
Edit request on 4 June 2012
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, please state the exact wording you want to see inserted and the location where you want it inserted. Rivertorch (talk) 06:11, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 7 January 2013
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
I would like to add a bit more information. Instead of just "In 2012, he played Cato in The Hunger Games." I would like to add in "the male tribute from District Two" So it would look like this if my edit was successful "In 2012, he played Cato, the male tribute from District Two, in The Hunger Games." X-Random Girl123-X (talk) 07:34, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- According to WP:BLP, "any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source". IMDb and EthniCelebs are not reliable sources. Edenc1 • Talk 01:22, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
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