Talk:Asashōryū Akinori/Archive 1

Archive 1

citation needed for the greatness claim

This one is a strange request - the whole article goes on to explain his greatness and backs it up with evidence, #5 all time for most yusho, the only man to win 7 yusho in a row, the only to to win 6 in a calendar year, the most wins in a calendar year, the near complete dominance he has had for the past 4 years: 20 out of 26 of the past tournaments. Why is a citation needed? the proof is right there. Do I need a citation to say Michael Jordan is one the greatest basketballers in history? especially if I back it up with proof? no I do not, the claim is indesputable. He is undoubtedly 'one of the greatest' sumo wrestlers of all time. Sekihiryu 12:12, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The request is for a reference: a web site or publication that confirms he has won 20 tournaments, etc.. How does the reader know the article hasn't been made up? --Auximines 16:46, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry - not sure how to edit the page properly so am just pasting - http://www.sumofanmag.com/content/Issue_5/Yokozuna.htm perhaps would be a suitable reference? Additionally for Auximines - http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/sumo.html does not need registration but the page will be updated shortly with the new basho - what's the policy about references to sites that need registration? If a (free) registration is acceptable, then http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ss20070120b1.html should be okay... Just found http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/sports/20070121TDY28003.htm which might be better as no registration is required... 220.34.6.253 13:09, 2 February 2007 (UTC) D Wolff

Thanks for that! Rather belatedly, I've added the first of these examples to the article. Pawnkingthree 08:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Um a bit late to the party but you most definitely need a citation if you are going to claim Michael Jordan is the greatest basketballers in history. And indeed if you look at the article, it doesn't say anywhere he was the greatest in history. Instead it just talks about his legacy which includes many awards, praises etc calling him the greates in history. This is the way things should be handled. Anything else is original synthesis Nil Einne 04:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

May I ask why this article STILL needs more citations? The list of citations is already tiresomely long. ONe gets the impression that when someone writes "Asashoryu has two hands and two feet" this needs citation. Henry Kaspar (talk) 15:19, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The rules are clear: any questionable statement has to be cited according to WP:BLP. Although the suspension section is indeed exhaustively referenced, other parts of the article are less so. Whether there's enough to remove that particular tag, I don't know, we'd need to get a discussion going. Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested Move

The proposed move reflects [[1]]; Akinori is a given name where Asashoryu is a "surname."Komdori 06:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree - It is confusing to have it last name first for sumo wrestlers in particular. For example, Daisuke Tochiazuma's first name is Daisuke, both in ring name and originally. It's confusing to reverse the names--sometimes his last name would be listed Daisuke, sometimes his first name would be listed Daisuke, and in reality you never would call him Mr. Daisuke. It's the same for Akinori.

Doing it just for sumo names inconsistent with both the agreed upon standards and common sense--how is a user to know when ONLY when they look up a sumo wrestler and not other Japanese names that it's reversed? If you were to write a paper which should be titled "Koizumi meets Asashoryu," it would be very difficult to get it right unless you knew that Wikipedia is not always consistent among Japanese names--it presupposes the user will know a great deal more about the specific situation than in reality they might. I propose that this change take effect, but a note be made in the article that he is generally referred to by his last name in the ring--Asashoryu. It doesn't matter that other sumo wresters are done incorrectly as well--they should also be fixed.

I believe the overriding motivation should be to avoid confusion--and I think that's the motivation behind always listing last names last. In cases where it might seem a bit odd to do so, the article should explain. Otherwise we have to explain in the opening paragraph, "By the way, Asashoryu is his last name. Even though it's listed in reverse order from 99.9% of the rest of Wikipedia. Including other Japanese entries." If you note on the talk archive page that mentioned below, the last comment also was in favor of consistency. LactoseTI 03:28, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Do not agree -- I discussed this on the manual of style and for Japanese stage names such as for sumo wrestlers the tradition of surname first was deemed to be appropriate. See Talk:[[2]] This current practice is given in the manual of style on psuedonyms where a sumo stage name is a psuedonym which is conventionally given "surname" first. I accept that it perhaps is less clear there, but have always shied away from editing that page as it is not really my area of expertise. This is also the consistent practice for other sumo wrestlers. If you feel there is scope for confusion I propose a redirect for "Akinori Asashoryu" to this page if it does not already exist. Nashikawa 23:58, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Further to my comments above, as a result of this I have requested further clarification on this point on the manual of style page [[3]]. Nashikawa 00:23, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

LactoseTI is sharing my thoughts on the matter, if Wikipedia does persist in keeping this style for sumo names, the articles should all have a disclaimer somewhere expressing that they are exceptions to the rule.Komdori 06:10, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

This issue is currently mainly being discussed in more general terms in the manual of style for Japan articles. [[4]] Please put your comments there and let us consider that to be the consensus for all sumo wrestler biographical articles. Nashikawa 22:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Previous discussion

There is a minor mistake in the article : the 5 tournaments won by Asashoryu were not consecutive and he was still an Ozeki when he won the first two.

Asashoryu has continued to dominate Sumo in 2005, winning the first five tournaments, and losing only five bouts all year.

Is this including his two losses in the September tourney? Or is it up to seven now? --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 07:45, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Article title, revisited

I'd suggest a move to simply Asashoryu, given that the NC is "common name". One could also argue via the "stage names" rule of thumb (as that's what shikona essentially are) that it should be at Dagvadorj Dolgorsuren, since that's not merely his birth name, but his actual, real, current name. Alai 01:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC) Asashoryu Akinori → Asashoryu — Common usage, and resolution of name-order inconsistency. Alai 16:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add  * '''Support'''  or  * '''Oppose'''  on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

• Oppose — "Asashoryu Akinori" is the full rikishi name, hence it's more encyclopedic. All rikishi articles in Wikipedia, including Akebono Taro and Takanohana Koji appear to follow this convention.--Endroit 10:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. No doubt many who want to look up this rikishi will simply look for "Asashoryu", but redirects are cheap. TCC (talk) (contribs) 11:18, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think it should stay at the correct professional name per the MOS discussion cited above. Dekimasu 11:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. According to the [MOS] it should be either Akinori Asashoryu or Akinori Asashōryū. Auximines 16:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

According to recent discussions, the page name should probably be macronned. However, as cited above (and reviewed for the case of the stage names of kabuki actors in October), professional names are generally to be listed in the order desired by the performer. Dekimasu 05:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. All sumo wrestler articles appear to follow the convention of last name, first name. Where's the inconsistency? Or are you comparing this with articles on other contemporary Japanese biographic articles which Westernize the name order? I'd say sumo wrestlers, by the nature of their profession, are exceptions to that rule. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 13:43, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

• This discussion should be taking place on the MOS, not here. Auximines 16:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
  • This is a naming conventions issue, not a MoS one. The Japanese MoS (insofar as it's a place to address naming issues at all) should conform to the general principles, not operate in isolation from it, or be quoted to "trump" them. In any case, I don't see any argument that the current title is is comformance with the cited MoS. Alai 23:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Box at bottom for previous and next yokozuna

Any information concerning previous and next yokozuna are misleading because there is no dynasty of yokozuna in the sense that one yokozuna follows the other. Rather, several rikishi can have this title at the same time. In fact, this is usually the case. Today's situations where Asashoryu ist the only yokozuna is, in fact, quite unusual. I suggest that box should be deleted. --82.135.7.10 15:59, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Clean Up

I've added paragraph headings and moved a few sentences around. Hopefully it now looks a bit better and it's ok to remove the clean up tag. Pawnkingthree 21:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

"a serious discretion"

"a serious discretion" - is that the correct translation? Corvus cornix 20:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

2007: Soccer controversy, suspension, etc...

Wow, I thought this story would have made the English version of Wikipedia by now, but I guess not. There's probably a dearth of English-language sources to cite, and I'm still trying to make sense of the Japanese, but these days Asashoryu is making headlines every day as this controversy unfolds. I'll do my best to find something! --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 00:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, there's more here than I realized. I wonder if the generic "Criticism" category should be split up? The older complaints are very distinct from the current situation. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 04:40, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm certainly happy for this section to be reorganised. I think Asashoryu's suspension is partly a result of all his other trangressions over the years, with the soccer incident just being the final straw. I wonder if it's worth doing some sort of timeline listing them all, so the reader can see that a two basho ban didn't just come out of the blue.Pawnkingthree 08:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

At this point the big story isn't so much the suspension, but the way he's reacting to it, and the fact that Takasago-oyakata seems to have less influence over him than some of his groupies. The head of his supporters' organization has been saying some truly bizarre things about him. We may be better off not updating all that quickly until what's really going on becomes apparent. TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:23, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I've retitled the section and moved it higher up the article to make it more noticeable. I haven't made any significant alterations to the content however.Pawnkingthree 16:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

this page sucks. suspension sections is torturous to read. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.86.233 (talk) 07:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Quarrel with Davaajargal

Dagvadorj states that Davaajargal apologized to him for the incident in May 2008:

Даваажаргал бид хоёр ойлголцсон. Аварга надад ахаа уучлаарай гэж хэлж байна лээ. Хүний ёсны халуун дулаан юм байх ёстой шүү дээ. Байдаг.[5]

If there is any confirmation of this from other sources, it might be worthwhile to include it into the article. As it is now in the article, it sounds just the opposite. G Purevdorj (talk) 09:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the section about this alleged feud (although the bit about the bout itself remains) as with a year's hindsight it doesn't seem that notable now.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:32, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Asashōryū Akinori/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Overall, this article is good, though I have found some issues:

• Refs #3 and 26 (the two from Japan Today) are dead links.
  • Replaced the links.
• "Asashōryū became the first wrestler to win five tournaments in a year since Chiyonofuji achieved the feat in 1986, and won his ninth Emperor's Cup." Citation needed
  • Citation added.
• "Asashōryū now stands alone with seven, cementing his place as one of the best ever." Citation needed
  • To be honest I was never really happy with this sentence and I don't really think it's necessary - that achievement speaks for itself. So I've deleted it and rewritten the paragraph slightly.
• "In January 2007, Asashōryū posted a 14-1 record, capturing his 20th career title, and fourth straight since returning from injury." Citation needed
  • Done. I've also emphasized that he was only the fifth man to reach 20 titles.
• "...marking only the fourth time in modern sumo that two Yokozuna with identical records fought for the title on the last day of two consecutive tournaments." Citation needed
  • I found a cite that said it was the only fifth time in the last 30 years that two yokozuna have fought for the title on the last day (which I think might also include cases where one yokozuna was a win behind the other) so I've altered the statement to reflect this.

Pieces and parts of the article feel slightly POV with the language use as well. (i.e. many uses of impressive, disappointing, which shouldn't be overused) At the same time, given his accolades the use of the language is probably acceptable in this case. Citations are rather slim for the career section, though this is general is not a problem so long as the proper things are cited. (though adding in a few more if you find any questionable to an outsider doesn't hurt) I'll put this on hold and give you a few days to fix it. Wizardman 03:48, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I've removed some of the impressives and disappointings, although I think it is fair to describe a 10-5 score as disappointing as yokozuna are basically expected to win at least 12 every tournament or else they will probably be criticised by the Yokozuna Deliberation Council for a below par performance. I've also added more references to the career section, mainly tournament reports of the final day. Let me know if you need me to do anything else.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The article now looks much better, and as a result I'll pass it. Wizardman 21:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Info on how he was given his Japanese name.

Could someone please add info on how he was given the name "Asashōryū Akinori?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.124.76.192 (talk) 21:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, only just saw this. all foreign wrestlers are given traditional Japanese names or shikona by their stablemasters. I'll add a bit to the article on this one in particular.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

In the trouble again

He hit a guy in the pub. Now he's up to give up. Any news? --Bilderling (talk) 11:51, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

It's in the article, under "other controversies." Now that he's reportedly reached a settlement with the alleged victim, it may blow over. I'll wait until the Sumo Association decides on a punishment before deciding if it deserves its own section.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I guess it didn't blow over, since he retired. I put in a retirement section, and put some other things around, then you guys who made it into a good article can clean it up from there. XinJeisan (talk) 09:46, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I really thought he'd wriggle out of it. I certainly didn't think he would jump before he was pushed. Good work on rearranging the different controversies - reads better now.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

It was totally surprising that he retired. On Asahi's main page last night, other than the top headline saying Ozawa wasn't going to be prosecuted, the subject was only Asashoryu. I'm sure more will come of this in the next week or so, because it seems totally out of character for Asa to just up and quit like that. Just have to wait and see, I guess. XinJeisan (talk) 23:55, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure there's more to come out. According to this article, the Yokozuna Deliberation Council were going to press for his retirement anyway if he hadn't made the decision himself.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 02:44, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Also, because he never took Japanese citizenship, he cannot become an oyakata, so after retirement, he's out of sumo for good. This will probably have to be mentioned in the article once there are decent sources for it. I looked briefly but couldn't find them. Even though both Akebono and Wakanohana both left the JSA, it was after their retirement ceremony. I'm pretty sure he is the first foreign yokozuna, or really, the first successful non Japanese rikishi -- to have not taken Japanese citizenship. This is all going to be very unique, I guess, and all things to look to adding to the article in the next few weeks. XinJeisan (talk) 06:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Tourney Box

I don't know if it was done before or after, but I copied what they did at the Japanese Wikipedia to show that Asa both won and retired in the same basho. You can see what it looks like here and then change the language however you wish. XinJeisan (talk) 10:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

I like it. Of course it's possible they've already prepared the March banzuke, in which case he might appear on it as a 0-0-15, but I guess it's unlikely.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Banzuke doesn't come out until two weeks or so before a tournament, so no way will he be listed. I guess the solution at present is OK, but I'd rather his January yusho be unmodified. As it stands, the chart suggests he retired in January which isn't the case. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 14:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

If he's not on the March banzuke then technically he did retire in January - the intai date is the last banzuke on which you appear.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:12, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

He's officially off the March banzuke, so while I agree that what we have in the tourney box isn't ideal, we really can't add a 0-0-15 in for March if he's not listed.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I didn't really like a yusho not showing up as a green box, but I understand the other arguments as well. I decided to fiddling with a compromise. I edited it in rather than trying to explain my idea. I think it's a preferable compromise. Anyway, take a look, and if someone doesn't like it, we can revert. FourTildes (talk) 21:00, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Asashoryu's Hometown

I think we should change some terms in Russian style like Ulan-Bator to correct one: Ulaanbaatar. God bless, our great Yokozuna.--Enerelt (talk) 06:19, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I looked at the Ulan Bator/Ulaanbaatar/Ulan-Bator wikipage, and this seems to have been a point of debate. It seems appropriate to that this page reflect whatever consensus is at Ulan Bator. With the understanding that language and transliteration issues are a major concern, consensus seems to have been decided in favor of Ulan Bator, so I would think that this page should respect that consensus, as well. XinJeisan (talk) 07:20, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Mongolian: Долгорсүрэнгийн Дагвадорж

Should not that say "cyrillic" instead of "mongolian"? Norum 08:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Only if you think English names should be described as "Latin". Jpatokal (talk) 11:04, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's so simple, since while Asashōryū Akinori is from Mongolia so it's natural to use Cyrillic, but there are multiple writing systems that can be used for the Mongolian language and you can't say some are more valid then the other. The Mongolian language article itself uses Cyrillic when giving the name in Mongolian with the Cyrillic script. Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be an alternative Mongolian name for the Cyrillic script when used to write Mongolian the way there is for Jawi script for example, at least not that I noticed. Nil Einne (talk) 13:43, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

You certainly can say that Cyrillic is more valid than any of the rest, in fact it was (and possibly still is?) decreed by law as the sole official writing system in Asashoryu's home country of Mongolia. The homebrewed Mongolian script is used only in the Chinese province of Inner Mongolia. Jpatokal (talk) 15:38, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me appropriate to call it "Cyrillic" instead of "Mongolian", since that's what it is and Mongolian script is not.--Gibson Flying V (talk) 14:24, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism

Someone is vandalizing the article! Can anyone do anything I don't have much experience... I removed the extra vandal lines added at the top. LebanonChild (talk) 08:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)