Talk:Bryndza

Etymology

I hid a very bad etymology for now. There is nothing in the sources that shows that bryndza has anything to do with brânză, that the word bryndza is derived from brânză or that any sort of Romanian cheese was a predecessor to modern bryndza. When you have some sources like this, then you can call it an etymology of bryndza. Right now, all it proves is that the Romanians have a word for cheese.  — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 13:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you had had a look at another source below (Exports of Slovak 'white gold' growing), you would have read that

Bryndza is believed to have originally been brought to Slovakia from Romania by the Valachs who settled in the northern parts of Slovakia from the 14th to the 17th century. The name bryndza has been recognized by the European Union as a Protected Geographical Indication since 2004.

Unless you have another source proving otherwise, it is vandalism to delete (or "hide") valid sources. Since the etymology is not yet 100% confirmed, I'll rename the section "Possible etymology". Mentatus (talk) 13:48, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not vandalism because you still only have original research, which is also prohibited (Wikipedia:No_original_research). The Spectator article only shows that the vlachs are responsible for bryndza (which is already mentioned in the article), not that the word bryndza came from the Romanian word brânză. Especially since the word brânză just means cheese and not any particular type of cheese, it seems rather dubious.

Note that synthesis is also prohibited by the original research policy. You have one reference that only says brânză is the Romanian word for cheese. The other reference says only that some people of Romanian heritage developed bryndza at least 500 years ago in the region of the Tatra Mountains. From these two you are stringing together the idea that bryndza came from brânză.   — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 16:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

For your convenience I'm providing a translation of the source No.4 (http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cvasmer&first=1&text_word=&method_word=substring&text_general=bryndza&method_general=substring&text_origin=&method_origin=substring&text_trubachev=&method_trubachev=substring&text_editorial=&method_editorial=substring&text_pages=&method_pages=substring&text_any=&method_any=substring&sort=word) confirming that bryndza comes from the Romanian word for cheese.

Original text: Near etymology: брындза "овечий сыр", укр. бри́нза, бри́ндза, польск. bryndza, чеш. brynza, слвц. bryndza. Заимств. через укр., польск. из рум. bri^nză -- то же; см. Брюкнер 43; ZfslPh 16, 205; Бернекер 93. По Тиктину (1, 224) и Брюкнеру (там же, 205), слово засвидетельствовано в Дубровнике уже в 1370 г. в форме brenc̨e "валашский сыр". Прежде его сравнивали с местн. н. Brienz в Бернском кантоне (Швейцария), что отклоняет Вендкевич (Mitt. Rum. Inst. Wien 1, 289) ввиду наличия dz.

Translation: Near etymology: брындза "sheep cheese", ukr. бри́нза, бри́ндза, pol. bryndza, cz. brynza, slov. bryndza. Transf. through ukr., pol. from rom. bri^nză -- the same meaning; see. Brookner 43; ZfslPh 16, 205; Berneker 93. According to Tiktin (1, 224) and Brookner (therein, 205), the word was recorded in Dubrovnik as early as 1370 in the form of brenc̨e "Valacchian cheese". Before it was likened to the name of the town of Brienz in the canton of Bern (Switzerland), but this has been disproven by Vendkevitch (Mitt. Rum. Inst. Wien 1, 289) due to the consonant dz.

It might be a good idea to have the translation checked by a native Russian speaker as the text is fairly technical, however the first sentence showing the etymological relation of the word is, in my opinion, quite clear. PeterRet (talk) 23:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Thanks to ChrisCapoccia for correcting the source link. PeterRet (talk) 23:50, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

what are the books it's referring to? i couldn't find any bibliographical info on the dictionary site. the sentence that starts: "Nowadays, the word is used also by the languages..." still needs to be improved so that it is clear that the romanian word is only used in romania. for example, bryndza is always called bryndza in slovakia and never brânză.   — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 00:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've somewhat cleared up the etymology section. As for the bibliographical info in the dictionary and the specific books it is referring to, I would guess that:

* Berneker = Berneker, Erich: Dictionary of Slavic Etymology. (Slavisches etymologisches Wörterbuch).

* Brookner = Brückner, Aleksander: Etymological Dictionary of the Polish Language, 1st ed., Kraków, Krakowska Spółka Wydawnicza, 1927; reprint, Warsaw, Wiedza Powszechna, 2000. (Słownik etymologiczny języka polskiego)

* Tiktin = Tiktin, Heimann Hariton: Romanian-German Dictionary. (Rumänisch-deutsches Wörterbuch)

* Vendkevitch = appears to be a Pole with the name of Stanisław Wendkewicz (or similar) active in the early 20th century.

Please, note that the transcription of the Latin alphabet into Russian cyrillics is phonetical, therefore relatinization of some cyrillized names might be ambiguous (e.g. the name which I originally transcribed as Brookner is actually almost identically sounding Brückner).

PeterRet (talk) 03:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

well, the berneker books (3 volumes, i think) should be in the public domain since it was published in 1908.[1][2] if someone can find a copy to read the bryndza entry, it would probably make a very good source for the article.   — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 05:13, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

You really think the etymology is dubious or that the two words have nothing to do with each other? I think it's pretty clear that since Romanian is the only language that has the word 'brânză' as a general word for cheese, and it's known that Vlachs who spoke Romanian probably introduced it to Slovakia and Poland and that region, there is a connection. The Vlachs just referred to cheese as 'brânză' and the Slovaks that encountered them in their lands after they migrated probably heard this word and began associating it with their (the Vlachs') particular type of cheese, hence 'bryndza' as an adaptation of that word there ('brânză' used to be spelled 'brînză' in the old Romanian orthography, and that 'â' does not sound like an 'a'). It became popular over time there and its ultimate origins may have been obscured over the centuries. I certainly agree that it became more well known as the particular type of cheese in this article in Slovakia, regardless of its origins or the origins of its name. The particular type of cheese in the article is more of a thing in those countries than Romania, so some of the information that's weighing it toward Romania is a bit misleading perhaps. It's likely just mainly the etymology of the word and a sort of loose connection to migratory Romanian speakers of the distant past in its origin. For all intents and purposes it's primarily a Slovak cheese as we know it now. Word dewd544 (talk) 06:12, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

It is completely false to claim the origin of the word as Dacian, because the Dacians disappeared from the northern side of the southern range of the Carpathians in the 2nd century, 10-12 centuries before the Romanians appeared on the southern side.--Sziráki Tamás (talk) 10:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Article name

I don't agree. It should be named aither in Romanian, or in German, or other traditional language, closer to English. Waelsch 17:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There's no such word in English (www.m-w.com). Dpotop 18:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

This is not exactly true. The English-speaking websites like www.cheese.com or www.epicurious.com use the word bryndza. Google Scholar returns twice as much references to bryndza than to branza. And by the way, the word "bryndza" is not just a Slovak one, but it is used in the Slovak, Polish, and Czech languages. Tankred 20:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, my move was a bit rush. Maybe the true solution is to have 2 articles. One for the Romanian stuff, one for the Slovak one. Anyway, Branza means "cheese" in Romanian, there is no special type of cheese associated with it. Then, you have "Branza proaspata" (fresh cheese), Urda, Telemea, "Branza de burduf", etc. Dpotop 11:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I definitely disagree. I am a Slovak guy and the mentioned typed of cheese is known as Bryndza in whole Central Europe. That's the same case as Italian Parmigiano. There's no exact name in English for Slovak bryndza, so I think it should be kept untouched. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.60.56.187 (talk) 12:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Romanian weighting

Why is this article weighted so heavily toward Romania? According to a cheese.com article on bryndza, it is a Slovak cheese.   — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 13:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Because the Slovak "bryndza" originates from the Romanian brânzā (and I mean both - product and name - here). "Brânzā" is a Romanian trademark (protected designation of origin). Mentatus 13:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you, please, point me to an offical document stating that? --62.168.125.217 23:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Since Romania is an EU member state, I assume Mentatus can find some offical document on europa.eu showing either the application for or acceptance of PDO status for brânză like I've done with the citations in the article for Bryndza Podhalańska and Slovenská bryndza.   — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 16:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Romanian

The article says that bryndza is called brânză in Romanian, and then it says that it is a sheep milk's cheese. This is incorrect, in Romanian this word means cheese from any kind of animal ( see ro:Brânză). Therefore, any bryndza is brânză, but not the other way around. The words are not synonyms. It does say something about the bryndza in Romania, but the information in the first paragraph is still misleading, and I will remove it

Another thing that's wrong is that brânză is the word for all cheese, as i have never heard it used for yellow cheeses. Of course that could just be a common usage thing, as all of them get classified as brânzeturi. Ciobanica (talk) 08:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

PGI

It looks like Slovakia will get the Protected geographical indication for Bryndza.
Vilikovská, Zuzana (2008-04-08), "Bryndza sheep cheese to acquire European trademark", The Slovak Spectator {{citation}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)CS1 maint: date and year (link)
  — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 04:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's the application for "Slovenská bryndza":
"Publication of an application pursuant to Article 6(2) of Council Regulation (EC) No 510/2006 on the protection of geographical indications and designations of origin for agricultural products and foodstuffs". European Council. 2008-04-10. Retrieved 2008-04-24.
  — Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 05:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

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Bryndza vs Brânză

Bryndza refers to a Polish PDO or Slovakian PGI.

Brânză is the word for cheese in Romanian.

The Romanian refferences should be somewhere else.

Ableci (talk) 21:44, 16 April 2014 (UTC)