Talk:Caucasus Campaign

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Whole page[edit]

Having read this page I'm firmly of the opinion that it doesn't meet the wikipedia rules regarding neutral point of view and should be scheduled for cleanup. Also the quality of the writing is often poor throughout; I often couldn't understand which side was attacking what owing to the garbled state of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecrm87 (talkcontribs) 01:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree in that the quality of writing is poor throughout. I know which side is attacking which, but if I did not, I'd have a hard time knowing what was going on. I also think that the article has a very Armenian point of view. That is not to say the Armenians did not play a significant role, but the article makes them appear as if they were the main actors. My primary sources are a book written from the Turkish POV by an American, and one from the Russian POV by a Brit and a Russian, so I realize they are not necessarily inclined to spend much time talking about the Armenian contributions or actions. Still, the article needs more about other nations and groups.

DanielCar67 (talk) 00:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Middle Eastern theatre of World War I[edit]

Please see Talk:Middle Eastern theatre of World War I#Rename? --Philip Baird Shearer 10:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

1917 - All is Quiet - (General Yudenich)[edit]

"The new government removed the Grand Duke from his command and reassigned General Yudenich to a meaningless position in central Asia (he then retired from the army)."

Excuse me, could you name that "meaningless position in central Asia"? As I know, Yudenich refused to start new offensive in the Caucasus and was fired by the Provisional Govenrment. RamBow 22:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this a personal attack??[edit]

I do not get what is going on with this page.. The editorials are become personal and one user makes editorial changes based on "I am switiching to this version by Khoikoi because Ottoman Reference did not provide sources and wrote up god knows what" Could someone help me to understand the logic behind these??? Thanks. --OttomanReference 03:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

By the way; I was just wondering the deleted section. The sections deleted do not even belong to me. If you look at the history of the article you can recognize that the text was in the article before my first edit... this version. I wish I was the guy who wrote those sentences than I could claim "god knows what" Wierd... --OttomanReference 03:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Mistake[edit]

This article is faulty in that the Iranian frontier consisted of basically western and northern Iran, not only up to Tabriz. See: Persian Campaign.Hajji Piruz 14:08, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The total redesign by a banned user[edit]

Hajji Piruz pointed out a problem that is reflected through out the article and its subsets. User user:Hetoum I is the banned user user:Hetoum. Either not really knowing the military terms and military history, s/he tries to turn this campaign into a front. Front is composed of campaigns and turning a battle and its military operations (sub-conflicts or coordinated battles into a military campaign) see her/his beginning edits move the century old battle into a campaign against a city.. He renames the articles using Russian terminology and not wikipedia naming rules. It is also true that he does not really understand why there is a Persian Campaign and tries to turn this campaign and its military operations part of "Caucasus Campaign". Most of the changes s/he performs are basic historical revisionism. I have had many problems with this user in the past. He does not listen, and he does not accept other views. he gets his resources from political propaganda sources, and tries to back them with citations from websites. What he is doing is wrong, but I do not see anyway to deal with him. Thanks. --OttomanReference 17:21, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Hetoum is not banned. Hetoum I is on vacation. OttomanReference you're in violation of WP:NPA, comment on the article not the contributor. --VartanM 17:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your response, I did not personally attach the user in line of WP:NPA. AS stated redefining "Caucasus Campaign" is the argument here, not him/her and it is a major issue. It is just not one article but all the battles are redefined. I was simply stating a fact that historically established facts are constantly modified by this user, such as presenting an operation against a city into a Campaign. And hope you as a user who claim that you have an WP:NPA, would understand the size of the problem. I personalty quit trying to present citations to this user. Thanks--OttomanReference 18:42, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
As I stated with the first message; I personally not going to take on this issue because of the given reasons. I wanted to remind you that ""there is no dialog between him/her and me"" and I'm not trying to establish one :-)). For the other argument I was simply pointing to check this. Thanks --OttomanReference 18:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Calling him banned user while he was never blocked,[1] [2] questioning his knowledge about military history, calling his edits historical revisionism, their all personal attacks. I'm not saying these to defend him, I just want you to understand the wikipedia rules. --VartanM 03:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Russianeda.JPG[edit]

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Image:Russianeda.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 23:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Georgian involvement on the Russian side???[edit]

I recall a few months prior, Georgia was listed as being on Russia's side...Did they give any troops to help the Russians and Armenians?

Now they are listed as being on Germany's side. That's because the German Expedition helped them become independent. But that was later.

Can someone please clarify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.234.131.220 (talk) 18:36, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

inconsistency[edit]

There are inconsistency in the article: “Erivan assigned 1th Division under General Christophor Araratov” 1th is not the truth. It may be 1st or it may be 4th, 5th ... It is possible that the number is wrong, or the “th” is wrong. I do not know what of that is wrong or true. It may be a typo of the th or a typo of the number, or it may be vandalism. Please check it. --Diwas (talk) 15:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

removal destruction & effect on Ottoman side by Armenian nationalists[edit]

The article is constantly sanitized by Armenians. It is based on Armenian views. It is an obscure claim that there was not Ottoman deaths and destruction on their cities. It is not just Armenian property and life is lost during the conflict, claiming so is rewriting the history!!! --Ahmet1992 (talk) 13:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

As opposed to what? Denying that they ever took place and laying the blame on the victims themselves? The massacres that took place in the Caucasus were vritually one-sided and carried out by the Ottoman authorities against a second-class population that didn't even weapons to defend themselves, let alone carry out any retaliation. Turkish state revisionism is unacceptable and foisting its propaganda here isn't going to work either. Those images are not backed by any reliable sources and will be promptly deleted. And do mind WP:AGF. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:19, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm saying removal of references regarding destruction & death on one the Ottoman side is wrong. Claiming there is no death and destruction on Ottoman cities and civilians is not factually correct. The remarks such as "another imagge for a turkish propoganda" does not fall into WP:AGF. --Ahmet1992 (talk) 20:32, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
I see no viable reason to remove Armenian Genocide or Russo-Turkish Wars from the See also heading. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:36, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Soviet destruction of the Democratic Republic of Georgia; Tiflis[edit]

The phrase "the soviet destruction of the Democratic Republic of Georgia" should be completely reworded. Not only is the neutrality of such phrasing questionable, but it is also misleading as it seems to convey the message that the Red Army completely destroyed the country, instead of what actually happened, which was a standard invasion and toppling of government. Also, next to it is a photo of soviet troops in Tiflis and the caption reads "The 11th Red Army destroyed Tiflis". Again, what kind of wording is that? Either someone demonstrates that Tiflis ceased to physically exist due to the "11th Red Army"'s actions or the caption is reworded. In the article of the Battle for Tiflis the same image has a much better, accurate and objective caption, something along the lines "The Red Army ocupies Tiflis". 189.181.69.42 (talk) 06:31, 8 March 2011 (UTC)ZK

Changes[edit]

There has been an increasing number of changes to this article to portray some kind of "Muslim Turkish Genocide" based on unreliable sources.

"Rudolph Rummel cites a figure of 500,000 Central Asian Turks being massacred by the Russian Army from Arnold Toynbee." Toynbee died in 1883, this statistic has nothing to do with WW1. In addition, a primary source this old on its own is no longer reliable.

Next, Rummel does not state "that 150,000 muslims were killed by Russian troops and Armenian irregulars during the period between 1914–1915" nor did he "further states a further 40,000 Muslims were killed by Armenian troops in the region occupied by Russian troops between 1917 and 1918". He just repeats the figures from "the Turkish statistician" Ahmed Emin, whom has no apparent credibility, and Rummel says Emin "was hardly sympathetic to the Armenians" meaning he's just another genocide denier that Rummel wasn't even stating was a credible source.

I tried to see if there were any other figures from reliable sources claiming ~150,000 Ottoman Muslims were "massacred". Stefan Ihrig's "Justifying Genocide: Germany and the Armenians from Bismark to Hitler" explains this hoax, where from pages 168 to 170 he reveals that this figures comes from German newspapers that were covering up the Armenian Genocide and tried to portray it was a rebellion being put down; it's just the standard genocide denial.

This needs to be removed. Neither Muslims nor Turks were victims of organized ethnic cleansing like the Armenians and the only people who claim such are revisionist genocide deniers. A similar thing is done by Holocaust deniers. As Taner Akcam said best, "The reason for this call is not only the scale of the Armenian genocide, which was in no way comparable to the individual acts of revenge carried out against Muslims." Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:17, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Arnold J. Toynbee.Slatersteven (talk) 17:26, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I self-reverted only to tell you that the article links to his uncle. Regardless, Arnold J. was referring to "500,000 Turkish-speaking Central Asian Nomads of the Kirghiz Qazaq Confederacy". What does Kyrgyzstan have to do with the Caucasus? This is a huge distortion of a source that was probably done intentionally. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:45, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
This was published in 1946, the book cited by Rummel was published in 1922. They maybe the same book, they may not.Slatersteven (talk) 17:51, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Please check the citation of the 1946 source I provided. It is cited to the 1922 publication (see: The Western Question in Greece and Turkey, pp. 339-42). At any rate, this discussion is moot. Central Asia and the Kirgiz people have nothing to do with the Caucasus so it shouldn't even be on this article. 18:00, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
This is the original [[3]], and does refer to events in Turkmenistan, not the Caucasus. But please do not block delete, just undo this one passage and lets discus the rest.Slatersteven (talk) 18:01, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Yup, this is an article on the Caucasus, not Central Asia Turkestan. I'm glad I stepped in to fix this mess. I also can't believe this kind of misleading and off-topic material has been in this article for this long. And I've already discussed the rest in my initial comment on the TP. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:05, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Yes, but you need to get agreement to remove it.Slatersteven (talk) 18:09, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
For example your second suggestion is about ignoring what the RS says, "Which enables me to calculate the massacre's total (line 101), which I get as 128,000 Muslims killed. In consolidating this with the 600,000 figure I very conservatively raise it to only 150,000 ". So yes Rummel, explicitly, says the 150,00 figure is his "conservative" estimate.Slatersteven (talk) 18:13, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
First off, see WP:BURDEN: "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." I am removing material that fails verification. Please, do not add unverified material. For example, we should not have material about Turkestan in this article until we look into the sources that verify the claim before allowing the readership to read up on it. Otherwise, we will be guilty of adding false and misleading information wherein which this article has been doing for quite some time now. The same can be said for the 150,000 estimates. So again, you did not respond to Ahmed Emin's concerns of bias. He was not a "sympathetic" person towards the Armenians, hence why his figures are not reliable. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:22, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Ahmed Emin "was not a "sympathetic" person towards the Armenians". Isn't the criteria for adding information based mainly on if the source meets wp:reliable and wp:secondary, not whether someone is sympathetic or not to a people or causes. You need to provide more sufficient information about this as to what you mean. Otherwise it is more on the wp:idontlikeit side.Resnjari (talk) 18:37, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
As I already pointed out, these aren't Rummel's estimates but the estimates of a Turkish nationalist named Ahmet Emin. As Rummel says: "Still, only one possibly good source and one very questionable one underlies this estimate". Which is a problem with this figure as a whole. There are barely any sources for it, and of those few sources they are all almost a hundred years old and many are made by Armenian Genocide deniers. Ahmet Emin was one such denialist and a staunch Turkish nationalist who went even further to say that the massacres of Armenians were initiated by the Armenians themselves (page 18). He is hardly a reliable source. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:45, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
Ok, understood.Resnjari (talk) 18:48, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
And as i pointed out that is not true, he says he used Emin's figures to come to his own "conservative" estimate. Also it does not matter, if an RS gives a figure we repeat it, we do not analyse or second guess sources.Slatersteven (talk) 09:03, 7 July 2017 (UTC)