Talk:Château Pape Clément

Connection with Bertrand de Goth

How the connection with Bertrand de Goth and the precise date 1300 is known is the most interesting fact to a generalist, missing from this account. --Wetman (talk) 15:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

How? Well I suppose like most ownership details, it is from French historical records. His ownership shows up in a variety of sources, including Hugh Johnson's "Vintage:The Story of wine". From his bibliography on that section he refers to his list of sources...

• Roger Dion La Création du Vignoble Bordelais (1952, Anger)
• C. Higounet Cologne et Bordeaux-Marchés du Vin au Moyen Age (1968, Revue Historique de Bordeaux)
• M.K. James Studies in the Medieval Wine Trade (1971, Oxford)
• J.B. Marquette La Vinification dans les Domaines de l'Archevêde Bordeaux à la Fin du Moyen Age (1978, Géographie Historique des Vignobles)
• E. Penning-Roswell The Wines of Bordeaux (1969, London)
• R. Pijassou Un Grand Vignoble de Qualité: Le Médoc (1980, Paris)

As for online sources, while unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a scanned copy of ownership records available for view. The connection between de Goth and the estate is mentioned repeatedly in a variety of places with this site probably being one of the best. Hope that helps. :) Agne^Cheese/^Wine 15:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Obviously "google search" is not the most reliable scale of context due to variances in use of accents, names and spellings. But for convenience, here is the results of a couple other searches.

• Estate's connection to Pope Clement V
• Bertrand de Got, alt spelling

The immediate thing that jumps outs is how prevalent the connection is used, in a variety of mediums from retail sites, to histories, to magazines over several languages and apparently years of sources. I also tried to look for any sources that dispute the ownership claim but so far could not find any. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 16:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't fully understand User:Wetman's request, but the source I based the initial stub on, is fairly matter-of-fact. Bertrand became archbishop in 1299, received vineyards as gift from brother and planted in 1300. That documents exist to date this I don't find farfetched. What isn't elaborated upon is exactly when the succeeding archbishop officially gace it the name, which would be a suspicious date to offer. This source, Peppercorn's Bordeaux. His source again, a biblio too heavy to mention (some of the above), but frequently cites Cocks & Féret. MURGH ^disc. 17:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Château Pape Clément/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Je me permets de vous signaler une inexactitude concernant les proprietaires de Pape Clement,le propprietaire etait mr Cinto,qui etait argentin,son gendre Maitre Maxwell batonier du bareau de Bordeaux ,citoyen Francais d'origine Irlandaise et non pas Anglaise,lui a succede et s'est en effet occupe du domaine , il a ete president du syndicat des graves,y a habite avant la 2 e guerre mondiale; Mon pere James Maxwell,s'y est d'ailleur marie! Quant à l'opinion de l'auteur sur la "negligence du proprietaire ",elle n'appartient qu'à lui et n'est pas a mon avis à porter ni à son talent ni a ses connaissances !!! Cordialement David Maxwell maxwellma@numericable.fr

Last edited at 06:15, 29 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 11:45, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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