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I agree with the other editors who support keeping this article. It provides good encylopedic information on a notable subject. I oppose merging or deleting it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:53, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately it fails WP:V. No evidence was actually provided to show it was notable. Simply claiming it is without providing any sources doesn't actually make it notable. They've managed to find all of 2 trivial mentions of crack intros which sources all of 2 sentences, which means 99% of this is unsourced which means it can't stay here. Numerous people looked for days to try and find sources to defend it and that was all they could come up with. Unless you can provide sources to satisfy the policy requirements the article can't stay the way it is.--Crossmr (talk) 01:55, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
This article can help establisjh notability, but since it quotes Wikipedia we shouldn't use it as a source I think. --Apoc2400 (talk) 15:55, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
If it can't be used as a citation it can't be used to establish notability.--Crossmr (talk) 03:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
If you read through the AFD, you'll see that other sources do exist. In Crossmr's reality, they don't though. - hahnchen 18:13, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Then demonstrate them. Also read WP:NOTE under trivial coverage. The only 2 sources provided during afd (one in the afd one added to the article) contained a single sentence about crack intros. Neither of those are "significant coverage of the subject by reliable third party sources independent of the subject". Perhaps you should spend more time finding sources instead of trying to make personal attacks. A piracy based organization isn't really independent of the subject of something else also related to piracy, nor is it significant coverage of cracks intros. Its an interview with some guy named dubmood in which he seems to answer 1 question which talks about crack intros a couple times and name drops it a couple more times. Significant coverage has been traditionally held on wikipedia to mean a full article actually dedicated to the subject in question.--Crossmr (talk) 03:41, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
The article contains several external links dedicated to crack intros. While they can't be used as sources they demonstrate that this is a notable subject. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:50, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
No they don't, they're all self-published, fan pages, group pages, etc. none of those are capable of establishing notability. If a site can't be used a reliable source it can't establish notability. Even some sites which can be used as a reliable source can't establish notability (primary sources, secondary sources not independent of the subject, press releases and college/university news papers).--Crossmr (talk) 07:21, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't referring to the in-line mentions, there's more than that in the afd. Maybe you should spend more time looking at those sources, instead of patronising everyone by repeating definitions to everyone who disagreed with you as you did in the afd. - hahnchen 17:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
What Afd were you reading? This was the only reference provided during the afd: . This was the only reference added to the article during the afd . Both of those are trivial mentions and do not establish notability. In external links section none of them are reliable sources and can't be used to establish notability. People claiming notability without showing any proof doesn't count for notability either. So where exactly are all these sources that were provided to show notability? The two links provided in this discussion, 1 is not a reliable source and the other one is 1) not independent of the subject, 2) reliability is uncertain, 3)its still not significant coverage of the subject, so even if 1 and 2 didn't matter, the most important thing of all is that it doesn't provide any significant coverage of the subject. Those are all the links that have been provided. Outside of a couple random sentences in a couple reliaible sources there has been zero provided. If someone provided links somewhere, they certainly haven't pointed them out on this talk page, the afd or the article. In addition to that being the only link provided in the AfD, Neuro who was arguing for keep flat out admitted that he couldn't find any sources to actually support it. So the only thing the AfD proved was that some people like it but can't find appropriate sources to support the article per WP:V and WP:RS.--Crossmr (talk) 01:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
I say NO to the proposed merge. It would be like merging x86 into Computer, or to use a more esoteric example, it'd be like merging Operating Thetan into Scientology. Cracktros are a distinct topic independent of the demoscene. People may come across cracktros without knowing anything about the demoscene. The actual "demos" of the demoscene have become distinct and separate from cracktros (they're more a form of art... and more benign in that they're no longer strictly related to software pirating). Demos have their own article, and cracktros therefore deserve their own article. Someday this article will become more than just a stub. Fuzzform (talk) 08:24, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
And yet here we are 2 years later without a shred of notability added to the article.--Crossmr (talk) 11:08, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Merging into Demoscene is a very bad idea. Demo (computer programming) would have been the better choice. I removed the merge proposal tags because this topic is notable enough to have its own place on Wikipedia. --Ondertitel (talk) 20:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
I noticed you restored the references to crack intro. Per WP:V and WP:RS this is a self-published source and it's been challenged. It's up to you to demonstrate that the author is a published expert in the field, otherwise, you cannot use it as a reference. Randomly hosted text files and FAQs do not meet our threshold for citations. Whether your consider it to be an excellent FAQ or not is irrelevant. What matters is who created it and where it is hosted. If this FAQ has been reproduced by a reliable source, then you can cite that, if not then you need to demonstrate he's a published and recognized expert in the field. Otherwise you can't use. Same for the other FAQ you added.--Crossmr (talk) 00:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
These sources are fine: check the rules for the actual relevant part: WP:SELFPUB. Next time, for this article, don't delete text and tag the relevant sentences first. This is not an article about living persons. Don't blindly follow sheeple and use your brain. E.g. you deleted this sentence: "As a result, crack intros began to feature big colourful effects, music, and scrollers." while next to it is an actual image from that era showing it! It is trivial. I don't care that no one even tried in all those years to search for sources. I understand you deleted it, but now I'm here and it all starts from zero again: you tag what you think checked, isn't sourced.
For the future and to avoid much further discussion now:
There is a website of it: http://www.oldskool.org/demos/pc/explained/demos.html with this on it: "If you would like to use this website as a historical reference of the PC demoscene or a starting point for your own pages, feel free to do so as long as you give me (Trixter) credit somewhere."
Seems you haven't visited the Demoscene article in almost 3 years.
The Demoscene#Further_reading article has lots of references I haven't looked at, including books. I'm sure the remaining stuff can be found in there. Ondertitel (talk) 19:33, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Yes, you should read the relevant policy because it does not involve claims about third parties is one of the key parts of that. Neither of these sources is being used to source information about Thomas Gruetzmacher or Houman Ghahremanlou. These sources can only be used to source information about the authors of the content. Not claims about anything third parties includes subjects as well as people. The material has been challenged and under WP:V#Burden_of_evidence you are not to restore the material until you can provide adequate sourcing for the content. I've given you plenty of opportunity to find sources and I'm under no obligation to tag it and leave it in the article, please read WP:OWN. None of what you've written above satisfies the requirements for using these as sources. Someone saying "it's a good FAQ" doesn't meet our policy. Someone linking to it doesn't either. What would matter would be if any of the authors and subsequent holders of the document were published experts in the field.--Crossmr (talk) 22:34, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
I consider your "challenge" trolling/nut kicking/demotivational the way you did it. I said I would be adding the necessary references to the article. You did not give me enough time. One month would have been plenty for me for not thinking you are a demotivational asshole, hence the harsh words. I understand you deleted it two years ago, but even then no one bothered to search for sources. You may be right on the letter at some point, but for me you are violating the spirit. I don't like your attitude towards fairly new guys like me. A lot of people stop editing because of unnecessary bureaucracy. I started editing (mainly adding sources) because I saw notable stuff disappearing because "lack of sources". You also know we are talking about a computer underground article, right? You are right to tell me you want better sources, but not by removing and bending the rules by calling it "challenged".
Anyway, I think almost all the sources are there. Yes, even the reliable ones you want, however not attributed yet. I'm going to keep undoing your undos until you execute your threat and call an administrator that tells me to attribute it already and stop it. Or you just let it be for a while and I'll do it anyway. (how I hoped it to go in the first place) Or you act like how it's written: WP:PRESERVE, especially because I just gave you a big hint and haven't sensed any cooperation yet. Then everyone will be satisfied. --Ondertitel (talk) 00:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)