Talk:Cyanoramphus malherbi

Renaming

OK I want to point out that the name "Malherbe's Parakeet" is not used at all for this species in New Zealand. We use the name "Orange-Fronted Parakeet". Wikiproject birds advises: "use the formal common name for article titles" - well the formal common name is only Malherbes Parakeet according to Birdlife international. I've made this point before; so what if there's another species of bird referred to as the "Orange-fronted Parakeet"?; we call this article "Orange-fronted Parakeet (New Zealand) and create a disambiguation page. Seriously, what's wrong with this idea?Kotare 05:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Just move it then.--Gergyl 11:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

A consensus is needed first Kotare 12:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

While I have no objections against someone moving this page to "Orange-fronted Parakeet (New Zealand)", I would point out that it is not only BirdLife International that use Malherbe's Parakeet, but *all* major World lists which recognize it as a distinct species use that name (Clements, Howard & Moore, Handbook of the Birds of the World). Orange-fronted Parakeet is widely used for it in New Zealand, but not elsewhere. Rabo3 11:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested move 12 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Moved to Cyanoramphus malherbi per WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE; with only one editor arguing weakly to keep the article at its current title there is a consensus against doing so, but there is also no consensus on where to move this title to.

Of the proposed options, Cyanoramphus malherbi recieved the most numerical support, and the strongest policy based arguments, and so in the absence of consensus I have chosen to move this article to that title. Editors who disagree with this close are encouraged to open a new move request at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 14:51, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

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Malherbe's parakeet → ? – This bird is almost never referred to by this name in New Zealand, with usage tending to be split between Orange-fronted parakeet or Kākāriki karaka. I think that either of these would be a more suitable title, though orange-fronted parakeet has the issue of currently being a South American bird of the same name. That bird does have other naming options and so could be moved if this was deemed the primary topic for orange-fronted parakeet, but the Māori name (which also has a wide degree of usage) would alleviate this need for flow-on moves. Turnagra (talk) 04:02, 12 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 18:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• Question, can you offer evidence for the claim that other names are more common? 〜Festucalex • talk • contribs 16:43, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

  Do you have any ideas on the best way to do that? I can offer examples of sources which frequently use one of these names ([1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]) but I can't see how to do anything quantitative that would be even remotely reliable given the overlap with the other orange-fronted parakeet. Though I would note that even some sources which use the current name as their title ([7]) say things like usually known as the orange-fronted parakeet. Turnagra (talk) 06:38, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: If the name is the usual one in the rest of the world, as the lead currently claims, then I think it should stay where it is. Commonname doesn't mean local name. Furius (talk) 01:39, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  Are there many international sources which discuss this bird? The vast majority seem to be local sources which use one of the names I suggested or the one Nurg mentioned below, which on an overall level would suggest the common name (ie the one used most often by sources) would be a local name. Turnagra (talk) 06:39, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

  I think almost all of the sources cited in the article at the minute count as "international": two of them use Malherbe's parakeet (including BirdLife, which I understand to be influential), but the rest use "orange-fronted parakeet." So, the claim in the lead seems to be wrong... But that leans towards "Orange-fronted parakeet." The Māori names seem to show up only on NZ sources? Furius (talk) 09:39, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: There is another common name – "orange-fronted kākāriki". It's more common than "kākāriki karaka" for starters. More research needed, Turnagra. Nurg (talk) 23:11, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

  That was why I started this RM to be fair - Malherbe's parakeet seems unsuitable as a name but I'm not sure what the best option is. I'd be fairly happy with orange-fronted kākāriki as a name, which seems like it would be a nice middle ground and prevent the overlap. Turnagra (talk) 06:34, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Comment: - I just came across this discussion now. I'm aware that the general consensus over at WP:BIRDS is to generally use the names selected by the International Ornithological Committee, but that doesn't appear to be set in stone as it also states "Wikipedia bird article titles may diverge from the IOC list when the most common name in reliable sources is different from the IOC name" in the "Bird names and article titles" section. Iloveparrots (talk) 15:17, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, we've moved away from that a few times - particularly for New Zealand birds where the IOC names seem to be very rarely used, if ever. Moving "New Zealand pigeon" to Kererū was one such example, as the former was almost never used in comparison to Kererū. Turnagra (talk) 18:33, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Comment: "Malherbe's" is used by the worldwide IOC, Clements, and BirdLife International lists. As noted above, "orange-fronted" is the principle name of a South American species, leaving only the Māori name available (but it's extremely unlikely to have much use away from New Zealand). Craigthebirder (talk) 16:57, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

As outlined above though, we can deviate from that if sources use a different name - which it seems like they do here with orange-fronted parakeet. Could we use orange-fronted conure for the South American species, or potentially orange-fronted kākāriki here? Outside of database lists, Malherbe's parakeet seems to be far less common than some of the other names we use. Turnagra (talk) 18:23, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

The IOC really seems to hate the term "conure", for some reason. I'm not sure why - it's no more paraphyletic than "parakeet" and is in fact *more* specific, in that it refers to small, long-tailed parrots within Arini (tribe) (the others being "macaws"). I actually once considered requesting some pagemoves (e.g. sun parakeet > sun conure), but then I read the talk page to see how heated arguments over that name have gotten in the past and decided not to bother... Iloveparrots (talk) 10:34, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

If we were to rename this article to "orange-fronted parakeet", I would think that the easiest thing would be to disambiguate with brackets by genus and then we could worry about the name of the South American bird on its own merits (especially if conure is controversial!); it seems like a bad idea to tie the two issues together any more than is necessary. Furius (talk) 11:21, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

What about Orange-fronted parakeet (New Zealand) and Orange-fronted parakeet (Central America)? That might work. Iloveparrots (talk) 11:53, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Sure! You know more about what's normal for the titles of bird articles than me.

On that note, might you have access to reliable parrot sources that would give us a better idea of what the common name for the-bird-officially-known-as-Malherbe's-parrot might be? So far the discussion (by all of us, certainly including me) has been very impressionistic. I think we need a bit more data. Furius (talk) 20:47, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

As an interim, I've gone through the first five pages of non-citation google scholar results for Cyanoramphus malherbi and looked at what they refer to the bird as. Of the ones I could access, this is how it came out:

• Orange-fronted Kākāriki - 4
• Orange-fronted Parakeet - 27
• Malherbe's Parakeet - 11
• Kākāriki karaka - 1 (used in conjunction with orange-fronted parakeet)
• Cyanoramphus malherbi - 2 (no other name used)

As a quick side note, I'm grouping sources together where their name differences are minor. For example, I'm grouping "orange fronted parakeet" and "orange-fronted parakeet", as well as kakariki or kākāriki. I'm sure there's a better way to go about it than this, but hopefully that can be a starter at least? Turnagra (talk) 21:52, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for that. That's all I would have done myself, to be honest. I'm not really an ornithologist, as such - I just like pet parrots. That's where my editing interests are, mainly. For what it's worth, the New Zealand Department of Conservation website refers to the species as "orange-fronted parakeet/kākāriki karaka". Iloveparrots (talk) 12:45, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Cheers both. I think these numbers are clear enough (and they tally with what I found when I went through the sources cited in the article above). I would then support moving this article to Orange-fronted parakeet (New Zealand), with the first line of the lead noting that it is known to the IOC etc as "Malherbe's parakeet" and in Māori as kākāriki karaka; Orange-fronted parakeet would move to Orange-fronted parakeet (Central America). Furius (talk) 16:11, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting, after a request to undo the close was made on my talk page. BilledMammal (talk) 18:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Cyanoramphus malherbi or leave it where it is: The Latin name and the current name are more concise and "natural" than Orange-fronted parakeet (New Zealand). Using a scientific name is a conventional practice when there isn't a single well-accepted and unambiguous common name for a species. Per WP:NCDAB, "Natural disambiguation that is unambiguous, commonly used, and clear is generally preferable to parenthetical disambiguation". Per WP:NATURALDIS, "Using an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title, is sometimes preferred." Google Scholar finds 252 results for "Cyanoramphus malherbi", 149 for "Malherbe's parakeet", 31 for "Kākāriki karaka", and 22 for "orange-fronted kākāriki". Google Advanced Search finds 9,000 results for "Cyanoramphus malherbi", 3,000 for "Malherbe's parakeet", 4,500 for "Kākāriki karaka", and 1,700 for "orange-fronted kākāriki". "Orange-fronted parakeet" does seem more popular, but it's ambiguous. Per WP:NCFAUNA, "if it isn't clear what taxon the common name refers to, use the scientific name." —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:49, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

  Okay, fair enough. I'd support moving it to the Latin name, if that's the accepted guideline. Should orange-fronted parakeet also be moved to its own Latin name at the same time? Iloveparrots (talk) 20:49, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

  perhaps it's worth doing a similar assessment of scholarly articles around that one, to see whether orange fronted parakeet is actually the common name for it? if another name is more common (conure etc) it may be a non issue and we can avoid using the Latin names. Turnagra (talk) 21:14, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.