Talk:David Lloyd George
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His pre-peerage surname
Was it simply George, or was it the unhyphenated double-barrel surname Lloyd George? I’ve never been entirely sure.
- Case A (George): His mother’s maiden surname was Lloyd, so it may be that he was given the middle name Lloyd in her honour, and generally used his middle name rather than his first name David. Also, his daughter Megan was named “Megan Arvon George” (although she was later referred to as "Lady Megan Lloyd George"). These suggest his surname was George, although I’ve never heard him referred to as simply "George" (cf. Blair, Thatcher, Churchill et al).
- Case B (Lloyd George): His first wife was not just Dame Margaret George but Dame Margaret Lloyd George. His son Gwilym Lloyd George is referred to as "Lloyd George" in our article on him ("Lloyd George was MP for Pembrokeshire …."). These suggests his surname was Lloyd George.
We read about relations between "Lloyd George and Winston Churchill", and also between "Lloyd George and Churchill". The former supports case A, but the latter supports case B.
I’m sure I’m not the only person who’s ever been confused about this. Can some kind soul come to my aid? JackofOz 06:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Lloyd George was his surname(s). He is listed as David Lloyd George in the Law Society Finals successful candidates list published in The Times, on 26 Nov 1881. He'd have been about 25 then. Mind you, things were more flexible then about what you called yourelf. The full name of this chap for instance was Leone Sextus Denys Oswolf Fraudati Filius Tollemache-Tollemache de Orellana Plantagenet Tollemache-Tollemache.
- Roger 08:34, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you, Roger. So, how does this explain his daughter Megan being named "Megan Arvon George", not "Megan Arvon Lloyd George"? -- JackofOz 13:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe she wasn't officially called that ... The Times report of probate of Lloyd George's estate (Friday, Nov 09, 1945; pg. 2; Issue 50295; col G, Law Report, Nov. 8 High Court Of Justice, Probate, Divorce) calls her "Lady Megan Lloyd-George" and hyphenates it. Roger 13:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ah yes, but see our article on her, which tells us that she started out as plain "Megan Arvon George", and only later became Lady Megan Lloyd George. I’ve done a bit of googling (here and here), and it seems that his family name was just George. His father and brother were both called William George. However, DLG himself preferred to use the unhyphenated double-barrelled surname Lloyd George, and hated being referred to as “Mr George”. His wife also took his surname Lloyd George, as did some of their children, but their daughter Megan seems to have been an exception, being simply Megan George (initially anyway). Talk about confusing! JackofOz 13:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm. Thing is in those days you could call yourself pretty much what you liked. L-G had been calling himself Lloyd-George since at least 1881 (see Law Society above). It would surprise me if she turned out to be George and not Lloyd George. Have you seen the birth certificate? If not, for a few quid, you can get a copy here Roger 14:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- A glance at the article suggests Lloyd George is a relatively typical case of a man whose primary male relative (his uncle) was on his mother's side. Most double barrelled surnames arose out of a desire to acknowledge and preserve the mother's family name.
- Double barrelled surnames are also often inaccurately taken to be a sign of being amongst the upper classes and some people have not used their full surname or changed it - for instance Anthony Wedgwood Benn started using the moniker Tony Benn when he started moving to the left of the Labour Party. Often the double barrelled form appears and disappears depending on the context - every reference I've seen to Megan's political career calls her "Megan Lloyd George" (sometimes "Lady Megan Lloyd George" after 1945) right from her first entry into parliament. Why she was just apparently just called "Megan Arvon George" at birth is a mystery - it's not mentioned in her DNB article (which uses the spelling "Arfon") and I've removed it from her article as unsourced. Timrollpickering 19:30, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
In Edwardian times he was often called "George" by the Tories as a sign of contempt, presumbaly to infer that his double-barrelled name was an affectation. I also once read a charming story (?in the Grigg biog?) about how on foreign holidays his name was mistaken for "Lord George" and he was addressed by the waiter as "Milord". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 13:25, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
- In those days, and in these days, you can call yourself anything you damn well please in English (which includes Welsh) law - just so long as you don't do it to deceive. DuncanHill (talk) 05:57, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Germany and Her Allies Revision
I noticed what might be a error in the third paragraph of the introduction. The first sentence of the paragraph says...
"He is best known as the highly energetic Prime Minister (1916–22) who guided the Empire through the First World War to victory over Germany and her allies."
Shouldn't it be "victory over Germany and his allies" since Germany is known as "The Fatherland." Just a thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 20:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- Germany may be the Fatherland, but in British English she is still a she, like all other countries. DuncanHill (talk) 05:25, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Welsh Church Act 1914
I think the wording in parentheses -- (though on the outbreak of War, postponed until 1920) -- is ambiguous. Is there someone who knows this history who could clarify this? What, exactly, was postponed until 1920? -- The introduction of the Welsh Church Act? The passage of the Act? Also, the phrase though on the outbreak of War is not completely clear. I would add a comma after though and form a complete clause with postponed until 1920 by adding a subject before postponed that indicates what was postponed.CorinneSD (talk) 22:31, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
- After reading the Wikepedia article on the Welsh Church Act 1914, I understood enough that I was able to fix this ambiguity myself. I added a comma after though and I added the actual putting in force of the Act was before postponed until 1920. I also changed War to war in upon the outbreak of war. There is no need to capitalize war unless it says the War, which it doesn't. (It's interesting that a special act called the Suspensory Act was enacted to postpone the putting in force of the Welsh Church Act and another act until after the war.)CorinneSD (talk) 23:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
There is nothing here about Lloyd George's apocalyptic beliefs. Was he a dispensationalist? A Seventh Day Adventist or something like that? There is a great deal written about his belief that he was working towards a second coming of Christ by invading Jerusalem. For example in Victoria Clark's Allies For Armageddon. IN the BBC series Clash of Civilizations programme 3, there were interviewees who talked about Lloyd George's ignorance of real geography, of how he believed that cities and places mentioned in the Old Testament were real and in place and demanded that the Army should secure these. There is no question that were he alive today he would be labeled as a Christian Zionist.--Wool Bridge (talk) 17:28, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- You will need better sourcing than that and there is every question as to what he would believe if he was alive today ----Snowded TALK 19:40, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Not asking what he would believe if he were alive today. But asking how he would be viewed. What church did he belong to? Other prominent British political zionists, like Balfour or Gordon Brown and Rupert Murdoch for example, have been Scots Presbyterians. Not sure what Orde Wingate and Winston Churchill were either and the Wiki pages on them do not cover the subject. I can try & look up academic writing on British Israelism & British zionism and see if there is a reference.--Wool Bridge (talk) 22:54, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
How about this reference?
Then-British Prime Minister David Lloyd-George was perhaps even more predisposed to the Zionist ideology than Balfour. Journalist Christopher Sykes (son of Mark Sykes, co-author of the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916), noted in his volume Two Studies in Virtue that Lloyd-George’s political advisers were unable to train his mind on the map of Palestine during negotiations prior to the Treaty of Versailles, due to his training by fundamentalist Christian parents and churches on the geography of ancient Israel. Lloyd-George admitted that he was far more familiar with the cities and regions of Biblical Israel than with the geography of his native Wales or of England itself.
Christians And Zion: British Stirrings
- YOu need to read up on WP:OR and WP:SYNTH your arguments above are good examples of both ----Snowded TALK 19:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
It says on WP:OR The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist- But here are published sources, Christopher Sykes son of Mark Sykes of the Sykes-Picot fame, his book, Two Studies in Virtue. And Donald Wagner's article is a university published source. Donald Wagner is professor of religion and Middle Eastern studies at North Park University in Chicago and executive director of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies. Are you trying to dishonestly confuse me or are you saying that anything you don't like or agree with or have not heard of before is OR and SYNTH ? --Wool Bridge (talk) 16:19, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Try not to over react. You have a source which says be might have been more predisposed to Zionism than Balfour and a source which says he knew more of Biblical geography as a result of his upbringing. That is all you have, the idea that he is therefore Christian Zionist is thus synthesis at best. As to "apocalyptic beliefs" there is nothing. Please read those policies again and the examples they give. ----Snowded TALK 19:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
In his book Christian Zionism: road map to Armageddon? Stephen Sizer writes on page 62 “David Lloyd George who became Prime Minister in 1916 was another self confessed Zionist sharing similar views to those of Shaftesbury. In his own words he was Chaim Weizmann’s proselyte. ”Acetone converted me to Zionism". (ref19) http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YtUsAQAAIAAJ&q=Lloyd+George#search_anchor
i.e Lloyd George is quoted in a publication, in his own words, that he was a convert to Zionism! Do you still want me to read Wiki policies? Also see: Albion and Ariel: British Puritanism and the birth of political Zionism Douglas J Culver ISBN 10: 0820423033 / 0-8204-2303-3 Publisher: Peter Lang Pub Inc
This is mentioned as well in Victoria Clark's Allies for Armageddon which I mentioned earlier.
This is the man who ordered the conquest of Jerusalem and insisted on the smashing up of the Ottoman Empire leading to a hundred years and more of sectarian fighting & war in the territories. I think we need to know why.--Wool Bridge (talk) 23:16, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- Sizer is writing from within the evangelical tradition about an issue that is fractious within that tradition. It is not the place of WIkipedia to allow articles such as this to be hijacked into those sort of conflicts. Even then your quotation does not support wat you want to say. So yes I do think you should read wikipedia policy, possibly also more widely on this subject. Its always dangerous to look at history through one factional lens ----Snowded TALK 04:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
Sizer has found a quote from the old boy himself and has a reference. Are you saying this is false? To dismiss his work and say it is not acceptable to Wikipedia because you don't like the tradition in which he has come from is really something new. And what objectionable tradition has Victoria Clark come from that you don't accept her book as a reference? She is a neutral historian respected in both Israel and the UK. And Douglas Culver's Ariel and Albion, an academic book which is sympathetic to zionism, has commited which sin to be excluded by wikipedia policy? I am taking a screen shot of this conversation to show to my students as a prime example of British self righteousness and denial of history, excellent example of 'what I don't know isn't knowledge'. Should send a frame to Jimmy Wales himself so he can see the abuse of Wikipedia Policy by people like you.--Wool Bridge (talk) 09:34, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
- Wool BridgeSnowded I don't recall seeing directly on "Christian Zionism" in this book, but the fact that the article contains not a single mention of Zionism would seem to represent a gaping flaw. As you can see, ths book contains an entire chapter on the subject, which is reviewed by the NYT here. --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 04:56, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
I have reverted a partial delete from Kdebem who states "I have never heard that LG saved Poland from the Bolsheviks. Could the author give examples just how exactly he did that?" retaining the part that was critical of Lloyd George. It seems to me as if the author has provided properly sourced content. Either that content should be retained in whole or deleted in whole. To delete part or all should not be determined by the extent of knowledge of one particular user. I admit that the author uses a strange wording to present the issues surrounding Poland in 1919 but this may be true to the source that the author was using.Graemp (talk) 08:48, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I've done a little work tidying and expanding this section, but it could do with more work. We could do with articles for all the acts mentioned, and it might make sense to group the reforms, e.g. constitutional, employment, rent, education, and so on. Some of them were of course not actually post war - coming in the last months of the war, but it seems to make sense to keep them here rather than split them out into the war stuff. Thoughts and improvements welcome! DuncanHill (talk) 19:14, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- For those who have time, K.O.Morgan "Consensus and Disunity" continues to be the best account of the 1918-22 government, but is a dry read. The recent Travis Crosby biog covers it as well. Grigg and Brinkerhoff Gilbert both died before getting that far.Paulturtle (talk) 03:05, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Talk page archiving
I have boldly archived a lot of old threads - my target was end 2012, as I feel that was long enough ago for threads to be regarded as stale. The archive is at Talk:David Lloyd George/Archive 1. If anyone feels that I have archived anything I shouldn't have then please do say so. DuncanHill (talk) 19:40, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- I've added an "Archive search box" at the top of this page (should shew opposite to Table of Contents) - this includes both a direct link to the archive, and a search function to help you find things. DuncanHill (talk) 19:48, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
When reading Stephen Spender's World within world, in a Dutch translation, my attention was drawn to Lloyd George. Stephen tells about his father Harold Spender, who wrote a biography (according to some critics a hagiography) on Lloyd George in 1920. Stephen also mentions his uncle John Alfred Spender, but in this lemma something is wrong; J.A. Spender has different parents and they seem not related. Could someone take a look at this? J.A. Spender has strong opinions on Lloyd George; his lack of knowledge in geography, history and economy. This is why I got interested. Taksen (talk) 06:52, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- @Taksen: According to our articles both Harold and J. A. have the same parents - Dr and Mrs J. K. Spender (Mrs J. K. Spender is Lillian Spender, the traditional way of referring to a married woman is to use her husband's intials or first name in formal speech). The Dictionary of Liberal Biography, by Duncan Brack, confirms J. A. and Harold were brothers. DuncanHill (talk) 07:37, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Upbringing and early life
I have a concern about the fourth and fifth sentences of the first paragraph in the section David Lloyd George#Upbringing and early life. I will copy the first few sentences of the first paragraph here. I've numbered the sentences for ease of discussion.
- (1) Lloyd George was born to Welsh parents on 17 January 1863. (2) He was raised as a Welsh-speaker and was to become the first (and thus far only) Welsh politician to hold the office of Prime Minister. (3) His birthplace, however, was in England, at Chorlton-on-Medlock, Manchester. (4) His father, William George, had been a teacher in both London and Liverpool. (5) He also taught in the Hope Street Sunday Schools, which were administered by the Unitarians, where he made the acquaintance of Unitarian minister Dr James Martineau.
The first three sentences are about David Lloyd George. The fourth sentence is clearly about David Lloyd George's father, William George. The fifth sentence starts "He". I have several questions about this sentence:
1) Is it perfectly clear that "He" at the beginning of the fifth sentence refers to William George? If there is any ambiguity at all, either the name should be used instead of the pronoun or this sentence should be combined with the fourth sentence.
2) Let's assume that it is the father who taught in the Hope Street Sunday Schools. I can understand briefly mentioning the occupation or occupations of the father, but
(a) putting his Sunday school teaching job in a separate sentence like this focuses attention on it, and I'm not sure Sunday school teaching should be treated with as much emphasis as his regular teaching job, unless there is a particular reason for that; and
(b) I do not understand the reason for providing so much information about the Hope Street Sunday Schools, including the fact that that is where he (assuming "he" is William George) "made the acquaintance of Unitarian minister Dr James Martineau", unless this has a direct bearing on David Lloyd George's upbringing. Perhaps it does, but the article does not say this. It does not even say that David Lloyd George met Dr James Martineau or any Unitarians. Also, neither Dr James Martineau nor Unitarians are mentioned anywhere else in the article. If Dr. Martineau and/or the Unitarians had an influence on David Lloyd George, I think this should be mentioned and made clear. Otherwise, I don't see why they are mentioned regarding the father. CorinneSD (talk) 20:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Is it correct to label him an agnostic? I think nonconformist is adequate enough to describe his religious fate as archive footage of his religious funeral would seem to suggest he was leaning more towards the belief God did exist by the time of his passing. Tomh903 (talk) 20:31, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
Involvement in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922)
D.L. George was heavily involved in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) in favor of the Kingdom of Greece, and even suggested that Constantinople be emptied of Ottoman citizens at the conclusion of the Great War (this was rejected). He is known to have been an instigator in encouraging Greece/Venizelos to invade Asia Minor (which proved to be folly). In the section of reshaping Europe I believe that these historic events deserve mentioning. --Nikoz78 (talk) 16:52, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
- I think these issues relating to the Greco-Turkish War should be covered in the article about the war, not in this particular article. It seems to me as if these issues are in fact already in the war article and done so providing the reader with a link to the DLG article. I would be against the unnecessary duplication of content across articles. Graemp (talk) 17:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Some duplication of information across articles is unavoidable, the same as with books. The emphasis needs to be a bit different though. Friendliness to Greece and hostility to Turkey were certainly major preoccupations of Lloyd George, so much so that biographers have flagged up the Great Eastern Crisis of 1876-8 as an intellectually formative experience of his mid teens. From the point of view of a biography the relevant matters are the endless intrigues around Salonika during the war, and then the Chanak Crisis which precipitated his fall. Not going to do it at this instant though.Paulturtle (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2015 (UTC)