Talk:David Schwarz (aviation inventor)

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Birth place: Zalaegerszeg[edit]

Zalaegerszeg is in Hungary, there weren't Croatians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.185.112 (talk) 13:02, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and? The man spent almost his entire life in Croatia where he also died and was buried. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.234.10 (talk) 06:42, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

Sources for David Schwartz's airship are findable on the internet but vary in quality and tend to have contradictory statements. Here is what I could find quickly:

  • Peter J. Hugill, page 258, World Trade Since 1431: Geography, Technology, and Capitalism, 1995, JHU Press, ISBN:0801851262, "two unsuccessful airships in 1897, that of David Schwartz of Austria being important because of its aluminum structure and covering (Beaubois, 1976, 29-31)" [1]
  • John Dziadecki's site http://spot.colorado.edu/~dziadeck/airship/schwartz.htm quotes two sources:
    • George Whale (Late Major, R.A.F.): British Airships, Past / Present / Future, ISBN: 1426400748, BiblioBazaar (October 26, 2007) (and also gutenberg 1996 version) in CHAPTER II / EARLY AIRSHIPS AND THEIR DEVELOPMENT TO THE PRESENT DAY / GERMANY:
      • "David Schwartz, ... built in St. Petersburg in 1893.", "aluminium plates riveted to an aluminium framework. On inflation, the frame-work collapsed and the ship was unusable."
      • "1895 ... second rigid airship, ... built in Berlin by Messrs. Weisspfennig and Watzesch.", details of construction, two aluminium props plus one steering prop, "end of 1897 by a method of pressing out air-filled fabric cells", in 17 mph wind ascended into air, made little headway, belt broke, drifted down, little damage, but upon deflation broke up due to wind and spectator vandalism
    • Dr. Hugo Eckener: Count Zeppelin: The Man and His Work, translated by Leigh Fanell London -- Massie Publishing Company, Ltd. -- 1938 (ASIN: B00085KPWK):
      • pages 210-211 "David Schwarz, in collaboration with a far-seeing Westphalian aluminium manufacturer, Carl Berg, had constructed an alumunium airship, which in 1896 made an unsuccessful attempt to fly from the Tempelhof field and crashed." ... "Count Zeppelin negotiated with Herr Berg's firm for the purchase of the aluminium for his own ship", emphasis Zeppelin did NOT derive design from Schwartz, but aluminium and Carl Berg's experiences
  • The Airship of David Schwarz, Ante Sucur's 2008 site has two pages:
    • The Construction and Testing of the Airship
      • quotes Zagreb newspaper Obzor on September 11th 1896 quoting "a telegram sent by an amateur journalist".
      • photos of finished ship, aluminium lattice props, 16 hp Daimler engine, flying 400 metres above Tempelhof
      • "October 8th 1896" filling begins
      • Another Obzor quote "Yesterday, on Thursday, October 8th 1896, Schwarz's airship managed to lift only a few metres ..."
      • his wife, Melanie Schwarz, continued the work after his death and organised Tempelhof trial flight (400 metres, but crashed)
    • Technical Characteristics of Schwarz's Airship
      • "12 separate compartments", "total length was 38.32 metres, and it was 12 metres wide". "aluminium foils 0.18 - 0.20 mm thick", and details of lattice, filling openings, gondola
      • "16 hp and it propelled all four airship's propellers", weight "3, 560 kg,", lift "3, 800 kg"

-84user (talk) 11:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a very extensive list. Why not post it on the article as references (links) and remove the tag? Ron g (talk) 12:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I started doing just that, then I diverted myself into creating Carl Berg (airship builder) (his firm provided the aluminium), and now I think this one needs a complete rewrite, which I'm slowly doing now in David Schwarz (aviation inventor)/draft. Because the sources differ in details (different dates, propeller numbers, one says one airship another says two airships, claims challenged by Eckener, etc) I will try to phrase it in terms of who says what. The draft to be deleted when it or something better gets into the article. -84user (talk) 14:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

David Schwarz (aviation inventor)/draft now has a structure but most is still in German and I'm slowly adapting it. I decided to start from the German article because it had a good structure, but I'll be inserting whatever cites I can find. See the non-article notes at the end for my musings on the various sources. I hope to continue this tomorrow. -84user (talk) 17:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite in progress[edit]

I have just rewritten the whole article using a partial translation and adaptation from the German wikipedia article, together with extra sources that I have listed above. It is still not finished, so I added {{expand-sect}} where more is needed. I will take a break now, but if anyone wants to continue the mixed German-English draft I used is here. -84user (talk) 13:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The article already looks much better. Thanks. Ron g (talk) 13:20, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Hard to find sources[edit]

These are cited by other authors but are likely impossible to find online. Someone with access to a university's library might be able to get sight of them. I have not added them to the article, nor used them (instead I cited Dooley who cited Robinson).

  • Rotem, Cvi. David Schwarz: Tragödie des Erfinders, Zur Geschichte des Luftschiffes. Manuscript. Indiana University Printing Services : Bloomington, Indiana USA. 1983. (German biography by Dr. Cvi Rotem on Schwarz)
  • Robinson, Douglas H. Book Review "Daivd [sic] Schwarz: Tragödie des Erfinders: Zur Geschichte des Luftschiffes. Von Cvi Rotem, Manuscript in limited edition, 1983", from Buoyant Flight, March 1984. Lighter-Than-Air Society : Akron, Ohio USA. 1984.

These are archived online:

1/6
Luftschraube des „Tempelhofer Luftschiffes“
Die Luftschraube - zeitgenössisch als „Luftschnecke“ bezeichnet - ist neben dem originalen
Motor das einzige überlieferte Bauteil des nach den Ideen von David Schwarz erbauten, von
den Ingenieuren Carl Bergs konstruierten und von diesem Unternehmer auch finanzierten
Luftschiffes.
Aluminium
1897
200 x ∅ 2010
Zeppelin Museum Friedrichshafen – Technik und Kunst
    • Several entries are listed under "6. Carl Berg und David Schwarz":
      • paper sketches
      • 1896-06-20 card from Berg to Carl Niggemann asking about Schwarz with the result that Berg was convinced he had been swindled by Schwarz,
      • gondola blueprint,
      • 1987 model,
      • 2000 photoreproduction on cloth,
      • 1897 remains,
      • 1895 patent description,
      • 1892-11-18 Schwarz letter to Berg,
      • 1895/1896 Moritz von Watzesch sketch of gear,
      • 1896 Berg's main invoice to Schwarz;
      • 1911 Vienna book: hrsg. v. Hermann Hoernes, Band II, aufgeschlagen S. 261, ergänzt durch zwei Fotos der S. 262 und 263, from Universitätsbibliothek Düsseldorf
      • Illustrierte Aeronautische Mitteilungen, 2. Jg. (1898)
      • other books and journals from 1897 to 1898
    • Room: 7. Carl Berg und Zeppelin - der Durchbruch des Grafen
      • 1898-02-22 legal agreement between Berg, Zeppelin and Schwarz's heirs, from Deutsches Museum München, Archiv


-84user (talk) 12:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Self-assessment[edit]

I have finished the adaptation of this article, but it still needs better sourcing. I started with my translation of the German article but I gradually replaced most of it with material from verifiable sources. The German article may be more accurate but only cites one source, the 1926 book by Carl Berg's son, and has obvious inconsistencies with Dooley's account. I suspect the article also used the 2000-2001 Museen der Stadt Lüdenscheid exhibition as source, but if so seems to have inconsistencies with what I could check in that museum's contents list. I have put a sources needed tag on the German article and asked one of the contributors for help. Ideally, someone needs to get hold of the Cvi Rotem German manuscript and check the details, since Dooley used Robinson's review of that manuscript. Finally I left out some minor numerical inconsistencies from Dooley's account. -84user (talk) 21:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

AfD?[edit]

Can somebody delete the attached "draft page"? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 05:29, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Ehrengrab?[edit]

@84user: It looks like an unfortunately failed "original research" attempt. Either the website is inaccurate (in Austria?!), or it's NOT our guy: it indicates age at death 59 years old, and burial date 19 Feb. 1904. Unless they reburied him and had forgotten when he was born... Also, D.Sch. must have been a VERY frequent name, easy to misidentify.

"Ehrengrab" and "Grabmal": if indeed there is any, maybe it's a cenotaph, i.e. an empty tomb with a memorial monument of some kind? So far it's highly dubious.

PS: At the top of the talk page smb. claimed he was buried in Zagreb. Makes sense. Reburied or still in Croatia? ArmindenArminden (talk) 14:48, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I agree this grave finder result cannot be this David Schwarz; it also has Marie Schwarz of the same age buried there, and Melanie was supposedly our Schwarz's wife. I don't recall checking that Ehrengrab claim beyond the URL link working, maybe there was no search function at the time.
I've never seen any more sources about memorials than are here; even the German wikipedia repeats the claim but with no citation. FWIW the deutsche-biographie has his burial in Wien, Zentralfriedhof, Israelitische Abteilung. (jüdisch).
Re your PS, I cannot see any mention of Zagreb, did you mean Zalaegerszeg? I'm pretty sure I ignored that comment.
His birthplace has always been in dispute, the deutsche-biographie publication gives both: Keszthely oder Zalaegerszeg.
Biographical details for Schwarz will always be murky, but I think the 1852 birthdate arose from a few sources, one likely was this which has both 1850 (also from [2] (printed in 2007 scan here) and unclear Hebrew sources[3]) and 1852 (and from [4], and Rotem Z his biographer), sourcing the National Library of Israel (just errors?). In cases like this I remember giving both dates with a footnote explaining the disputed facts. I doubt we as wikipedia editors can claim any one date is correct, history has no doubt eaten the truth.
The adoption of the Gregorian calendar might explain the 7 December - 20 December discrepancy.
There might be a little more background in the German article's talk page - I was the 84 IP address user there. -84user (talk) 11:22, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Nationality dubious[edit]

In the Birth date and nationality section I've changed the {{dubious}} parameters by adding "1=talk page" and "reason=" to make it link here.

I've never seen any convincing cites for his actual nationality, other than birth place. I doubt the concept was as important then as it appears to be today. As to passports, I suspect hardly anyone used them back then. I also agree the disputes are mostly empty talk, but there are editors that want to see something in those fields. -84user (talk) 12:19, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Wow, that's a way of linking I wasn't aware existed. Just to make sure it works both ways, here is what I put into the "dubious" tag:
"Pls. explain. Nobody understands nowadays the difference between Austro-Hungarian administrative "nationalities". Didn't they all have the same type of citizenship, passport, and duties/rights? What did it mean, if anything? How did it change between Schwarz's birth year 1850, the 1867 Compromise, and his death year 1897? How is it relevant to his identity, since he was at least born Jewish? What were his main languages? Any census date or alike re. how he self-defined? Lacking all these, it's rather empty talk."
I read up now and you're right about passports, exactly in those 3 decades before WWI they were put aside due to the introduction of railroads (no time to check at the border), but I used the word in an attempt to keep it slightly shorter in that tag, meaning: identity papers, police file or whatever they used to identify the subjects of this or that monarchy. Anyhow, I read that he had trouble being accepted by the German army staff as he was Austro-Hungarian (and Jewish, I might add, whatever his probable conversion might have meant to his contemporaries). They knew quite well whom to arrest as enemy alien in case of war, to conscript or to tax. Terms aside, it looks like a typical misplaced nationalistic attempt from several different sides to claim the man & add his fame to one's flag & pantheon. Too bad he didn't know this might happen one day, or he would have left some note in his last will about it. But he might have chosen to write "I'm an eternal admirer of Kaiser Joseph II", which wouldn't have helped the zealots in Budapest, Zagreb, or Jerusalem any further; maybe just those in Vienna, who tend to know their history a bit better.Arminden (talk) 19:20, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

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