Talk:Death and state funeral of Lech and Maria Kaczyński

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Should Maria be included in the title?[edit]

Should Maria Kaczyńska be included in the title? She seems to be part of this too and it is rare enough for a head of state to die with their spouse.

Death and state funeral of Lech Kaczyński >>> Deaths and state funeral of Lech Kaczyński and Maria Kaczyńska? --candlewicke 17:46, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
Support 208.120.174.204 (talk) 20:20, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Any other examples apart from the Ceaucescus? (I vaguely recall reading that a retired Communist era Polish politician and wife killed by burglars?) Jackiespeel (talk) 22:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Title revisited[edit]

The following is copied from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language (September 18, 2014)

Referring to a Polish husband-wife pair by a single surname

This article has had a few title changes, but I'm not sure we've got it just right yet. Originally it was Death and state funeral of Lech Kaczyński, then Death and state funeral of Lech Kaczyński and Maria Kaczyńska, and now Death and state funeral of Lech and Maria Kaczyńska.

The only mention of the surname is now the female version Kaczyńska, and that's only because Maria was mentioned last, being the spouse of the notable person. It seems odd for a male Pole to seem to be sharing his wife's surname, rather than the other way around. I don't know how the Poles would deal with this, but the real question is, how should English speakers deal with it? My hunch is to use the male version, if one has to be chosen. I think we'd be talking about "Vladimir and Lyudmila Putin", not "Vladimir and Lyudmila Putina", although Lyudmila Putina by herself of course takes the female version. I can't readily think of any similar cases for guidance. Any ideas? -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 02:55, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

This doesn't help for English, but the Polish version uses the genitive plural, which is the same for both masculine and feminine. Once again, noun declensions solve everything. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:26, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Jack's position, bolstered by the Putin example. There are two principles that support using the masculine version in this case: 1) When people from Slavic countries migrate to English-speaking ones, their children almost always simply use the masculine form of the surname. It is the unmarked version. 2) In this case, the more notable of the two is Lech Kaczyński, and the article title should facilitate web searches. People are more likely to be looking for information on the funeral of Lech Kaczyński than of his wife. Therefore, the article title should use Lech's form of the surname. To avoid antagonizing people who think that agreement should be with the last item in a series, maybe the article title should be "Death and state funeral of Maria and Lech Kaczyński". Marco polo (talk) 13:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the support about using Kaczyński rather than Kaczyńska, Marco. I'm not wedded to your last idea, however. We generally have a "ladies and gentlemen" order thing in our culture, but when it comes to specific couples being mentioned, it's always the notable person/VIP first and then their spouse who are referred to. For example it would be "Barack and Michelle/Mrs Obama" but (before ennoblement) "Margaret and Denis/Mr Thatcher". It would seem odd to see "Death and state funeral of Michelle and Barack Obama", so I don't favour that order merely to satisfy a problem of incompatibility between Polish and English orthography. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 19:38, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Consequently, I'll be changing Kaczyńska to Kaczyński in the article title. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:09, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Disruptions to planning[edit]

The article should mention the disruptions caused by the ash cloud, and how people cancelled because of it. The two short sections (not attending, not being delayed) don't seem to be enough.

70.29.208.247 (talk) 20:59, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


from Poland: Thank you all international delegations for coming to attend the funeral of President Lech Kaczynski. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.222.242.239 (talk) 21:17, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

New image uploaded[edit]

I uploaded an image relevant for this article to Commons. It's File:Lech Kaczyński funeral.jpg. Please feel free to add it to the article. — Kpalion(talk) 23:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Added. Thanks. --candlewicke 22:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Should the President of Kosovo be in the list of dignitaries[edit]

User:Voyevoda removed the president of Kosovo from the list of dignitaries with the edit summary "not a state". I reverted this change with the summary "The status of Kosovo is unclear - saying it is not a state over simplifies things - 66/192 UN states recognise it, importantly this includes Poland - please discuss on talk page before removing again." He then removed it again without giving a reason so I reverted and have now started a discussion here.

As I say in my edit summary the status of Kosovo is unclear but, in my opinion, the important thing here is that according to International recognition of Kosovo, Kosovo is recognised as a state by Poland and so, presumably, the president would have been treated as a head of state at the funeral. As this is a Polish topic it seems sensible to me that we let their position guide us and so the president should be listed.

The other way around this is to change state at the top of the table to something else but this, to me, seems a bit unwieldy and pointless. Dpmuk (talk) 13:19, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

In this situations, kosovo flag is removed, and {{kosovo-note}} will be added. This was agreed here and here, and on few other places. I will do this. --Tadijaspeaks 00:29, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Obama[edit]

Is it worth mentioning that President Obama caused some offence by playing golf on the day of the funeral, both in Poland and US? (79.190.69.142 (talk) 21:38, 31 August 2010 (UTC))

And other "world leaders" ... I wonder what the presidents of South Africa, Argentina, India, China, France and many, many others were up to on that day. Why is the non-attendance of president Obama (and whether he was playing golf) relevant at all? As for causing some offence, do you have a source for that? Astronaut (talk) 01:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

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