Talk:Devadasi

Sexual exploitation

This article is missing info about the prostitution and sexual exploitation many of these girls and women face. You can't just omit this info from wikipedia and hope the problem goes away. Iamextremelygayokay (talk) 01:24, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Broken Sentence

3rd paragraph, 1st sentence:

During British rule in the Indian subcontinent kings who were the patrons of temples, thus the temple artist communities lost their power.

This sentence is broken imho, probably a part is missing. What happened to the kings? Should that read:

During British rule in the Indian subcontinent, kings who were the patrons of temples lost their power, thus also the temple artist communities. --79.201.84.43 (talk) 13:42, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Info on sexual exploitation in lead

I saw that the information was removed with the claim that it was "irrelevant for lead, and cherrypicking". Please discuss this first before removing it - the information was sourced from news reports and had been modified by multiple editors already. Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 06:15, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Both are news sources. First is from 2001 and does not mention any "exploitation". 2nd one talks about "Jogini" in Telangana (only) and mentions "Devadasi" only once, and also mentions that "families often turn their daughters over to the ritual without invoking its name. In 2019, she told ThePrint, the organisation rescued a few pregnant teenagers who were “silent victims of this practice".[1] This is far from claim that "there are reports they are sexually exploited by the community in modern times". Srijanx22 (talk) 06:43, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

First report quotes "The devdasi system is a form of open prostitution" and second report "‘jogini’, or the victim of an illegal practice that pushes women into sex slavery under the veil of faith" and "Men of all age groups call us names and say our whole life is about taking care of their sexual needs". Jogini is a regional name for the term Devdasi and it is already mentioned in the current wiki article - "Devadasis were also known as jogini, venkatasani, nailis, muralis, and theradiyan". If the concern is that we don't have non-news sources then please raise it in Talk before removing the otherwise accurate statement outright. Also, please help fill in gaps by adding sources if you have any. Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 06:52, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

And that is completely false, because "during the colonial period, the British outlawed their activities. They got beaten up, arrested, locked up and brutalisation continued. This dried up their traditional source of livelihood, and women had no choice. They ended up in prostitution"., per Al-Jazeera. Now see WP:EXCEPTIONAL and WP:IRS. You have still not addressed how your sources support that "there are reports they are sexually exploited by the community in modern times". I am not going to 'fill in gaps' for your problematic edits. Are you claiming that it is WP:DUE to state that a practice has been banned but it continues? This is the same as just any other crime. Srijanx22 (talk) 07:12, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

How does WP:EXCEPTIONAL apply here given that the claims are present in multiple mainstream sources? Of course if you want more sources can be added to support the points. Moreover the claim never was that they have always been exploited like this so I don't see how the history of the practice applies to it - the statement is clearly about "modern times". If you think the positioning of the statement is incorrect then please suggest a more appropriate location. The reason for putting it at the end of the lead is because it is the most "recent" discussion/reporting around the subject. Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 07:26, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

It does, because your claims are false and don't match the scholarly view on the subject. Your confusion of "Jogini" with "Devadasi" also tells that you are not aware of the meaning of these terms. Read this:

"Here one important point to be noted is that there is much difference between Devadasi system and Jogin / Basavi system. The argument says that Devadasi system is not confined to a particular caste. Unlike Jogins, the Devadasis are not treated as untouchables. The doors of every temple ( both great and little tradition ) are open to them. They have, in fact, been honoured in the public in the past, and even offered seats alongside the figures of royalty."[2]

Can you tell now that why do we need your sources when they don't understand this subject? Srijanx22 (talk) 07:35, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, current information on the page does not seem to distinguish between the two systems. If you have good sources (like you have shared) then please add those clarifications. In the mainstream however for purposes of the claim both the systems are same and that is reflected in the language used. I have added 2 more citations for the claim - one from a scholarly source and one from another mainstream publication. Both use the term "Devadasi" for the specific instances and statistics of sexual exploitation they are talking about. This is just to reiterate that the statement does not meet the criteria for WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Also the statement added and the sources referenced are not original research - I am merely adding to Wikipedia what is already out there in present discourse (including news and academia). Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 07:45, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Human Rights Watch also uses the same terminology. If you are suggesting that the systems are indeed unlinked (enough to make the statement in question inaccurate) - then suggest a fix. Please consider all the counter evidence I have presented - all from the mainstream. Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 07:52, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Srijanx22. Unless you have sources that confirm that there are cases where the girls are working as 'devadasi' and also indulging in prostitution, then only you should come up with them. Instead of relying on sources which say "daughters into prostitution, insisting that it is part of the community`s tradition", and "people dedicate their daughters to the system in the name of appeasing the gods". This is far from a confirmed case of "devadasi" but prostitution where someone is somehow trying to relate to Devadasi without having any clear affiliation. Wareon (talk) 08:41, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

I did exactly that. All the reports (4 of them) linked are explicit in the statement that these girls working as Devadasis were also pushed into prostitution and were exploited sexually. The Hindu one also mentions how sexual exploitation is part of the initiation ritual itself - "The practice of “offering” girl children to Goddess Mathamma thrives in the districts of Chittoor in Andhra Pradesh and Tiruvallur in Tamil Nadu, forcing the National Human Rights Commission to seek report from the two States. As part of the ritual, girls are dressed as brides and once the ceremony was over, their dresses are removed by five boys, virtually leaving them naked.".[3] The article from The Print is also explicit in the claim that they are sexually exploited - "According to D’Souza, due to the constant sexual abuse, joginis are three times more prone to getting HIV than other women, and 10 times more likely to die from it."[4] The article from Zee News does the same "She and her three sisters, who were dedicated to the temple, are all now in trade. She, presently, lives with her three sons and a daughter and practices prostitution." [5] Even the research paper cited does the same "The paper focuses on female devadasi temple prostitutes (Child sex workers but popularly understood as temple prostitutes in the name of dedication to deity) children in South India and the provision of support to integrate devadasi girls into the community and improve their psychosocial situation." [6] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk • contribs) 09:03, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

The Print as already mentioned is talking about Jogini, not Devadasi. The examples you cited are from South India and they do not represent thousands of Devadasi, thus your broad generalization of devadasis is misleading. Srijanx22 (talk) 12:20, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Firstly - there was no broad generalisation in the statement itself - it talked about reports of Devadasis being sexually exploited. Secondly The Print report also has the following sentence in it - "In the early days, the primary duty of a jogini — also known as ‘devadasi’ and considered property of the temple". Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 12:58, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

See WP:NOTACTIVISM. You need to stop citing sources that depend on the accounts of activists. You still haven't provided any justification that how this 'crime' is any different than any other 'crime' which occurs even after being banned. You should also tell that how this profession is different than any other profession where 'sexual exploitation' does not happen. Again, see WP:UNDUE. Srijanx22 (talk) 08:50, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

WP:NOTACTIVISM. You need to stop citing sources that depend on the accounts of activists. - that's not what that rule states from my understanding. The only requirement is that edits be WP:NPOV and that there should be no self-promotion, advertising, etc. The info added met all these rules. The language used was a summary of the articles cited and was not an attempt for advocacy or anything. Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 09:07, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

You haven't answered my 2 questions. When more reliable sources disagree with your sub-standard sources then you should give up adding your sources and accept what reliable sources say. Your edits  violate WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE and have nothing much to do with the subject directly. Devadasis are known mainly for dance, and economic marginalization after British rule.[7][8] The article is already clear about it. Srijanx22 (talk) 12:20, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

What you claim to be a more reliable source (you only provided one relevant to current discussion) is only stating that the generic term Devadasi should not be confused with the term Jogini because Joginis refers to a particular group that is confined to a particular caste. That however does not counter the 4 separate articles cited in the claim originally as they are each talking about different groups of Devadasis in different states. The research paper itself is talking about all Devadasis. You have not specified how the edit is violating WP:NPOV or even WP:UNDUE - the statement was an apt summary of what all the cited sources were claiming and all the cited sources were from mainstream media + 1 research paper. Since we are basically at an impasse regarding this I am raising an RfC for uninvolved editors to weigh in. Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 12:58, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

References

RfC: Should article reference reports of sexual exploitation and prostitution in the modern day

Should the article include a statement on the fact that there are several reports on the sexual exploitation of Devadasis and them being forced into prostitution in the modern era. Previously included statement on this that has been reverted - "But there are reports they are sexually exploited by the community in modern times." A discussion was started at Talk:Devadasi#Info_on_sexual_exploitation_in_lead but has reached an impasse with me and the other editor disagreeing on whether the statement was supported by the citations provided for it. Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 13:09, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Update: Statement proposed to be reverted back to - "There are reports they are sexually exploited by the community in modern times." This statement was previously included on the page. Check version here - [9]. Supporting citations - [10][11][12] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk • contribs) 16:16, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion

• Ujwal.Xankill3r, please state the precise content that is being proposed, along with full citations. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:41, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, will do right away! Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 16:10, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

• The proposed line is grammatically poor. I suggest you to read both Davesh Soneji and Lucinda Ramberg, before proceeding. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:37, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Thank you for the suggestion. I'll take a look at the books Given to the Goddess and Unfinished Gestures - assuming those are the works you are referring to. Ujwal.Xankill3r (talk) 06:36, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
    • Yeah - those 2 books. (I might edit this mess of an article, if I get some time.) TrangaBellam (talk) 10:29, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: India in Global Studies

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2023 and 12 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Swayam6153 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Swayam6153 (talk) 05:04, 3 May 2023 (UTC)