Talk:East African Community

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 January 2019 and 1 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): KrystleW.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:59, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

New potential expansion

Recently there have been effort from Kenya's president to get Comoros to join the EAC according to this article:

https://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/tea/news/east-africa/ruto-woos-comoros-to-join-eac-4297102

Perhaps adding them to the list would be a good idea? ItzSyther (talk) 02:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

I have added it per your source. CMD (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

The Federal Republic of Somalia has been admitted as the 8th member of the EAC

It was announced via twitter https://twitter.com/jumuiya/status/1728042231095799858 that Somalia has been admitted. The wiki page needs to be updated to include this information. ItzSyther (talk) 13:43, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Some relevant updates made. CMD (talk) 14:14, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

This is either going to really help somali or shoot EAC in the foot ThyOfThee (talk) 15:17, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Note that Somalia has not actually joined yet. The EAC agreed to admit the country, but the treaty of accession still needs to be ratified. It was signed by Somalia in December, and Somalia has 6 months to ratify it in order to officially become a member state: [1]. TDL (talk) 18:12, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

There is this image in the slider on the EAC's official website: https://www.eac.int/images/banners/FRS_unveiling_new_EAC_Map.png

It seems clear that Somalia is in fact a member of the EAC. To be clear, there are countless reliable sources indicating this fact — a quick search shows that. Claims that Somalia is not a member require scrutiny, as they verge on original research. jhpratt (talk) 10:42, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Should the image on the article be changed to also show that too? The image of state members shows the Somali federation as a member still.92.236.211.53 (talk) 14:06, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I've corrected the map a few times now, but editors keep prematurly reverting it (based on the oversimplified headlines in the news).

I'm sure they will join in a few months, but it's better to stick to the facts here rather than jump the gun. For reference, after South Sudan was invited to join in March 2016, they didn't comlpete the procedure and join until September. TDL (talk) 06:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Are these page considered as original research? https://www.eac.int/overview-of-eac https://www.eac.int/eac-partner-states . An image could correspond to a mere projection of the future of EAC. The first document above is much more precise about the status of Somalia. Ydecreux (talk) 13:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Ultimately, there are a ton of reliable sources say that Somalia is a member right now. The EAC website obviously takes time to be updated, so it's plausible that many pages are out of date. Given that sources have to be weighed and that the EAC homepage includes an image (linked above) that says "Somalia formally joins EAC…on 15 December, 2023", it is reasonable to say that the burden would be to demonstrate that Somalia is not a member. Keep in mind that Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources|Wikipedia policy says "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." and "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." Basically, secondary sources are preferred over primary sources. jhpratt (talk) 22:50, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

This press release, dated February 15, 2024, says that EAC comprises 7 partner states and recalls that "The Federal Republic of Somalia is in the process of becoming a full member of the Community after its admission into the EAC bloc by the Summit of EAC Heads of State on 24th November, 2023." The same paragraph is added on all other press releases published on EAC website.

This other presse release mentions the 6-month deadline to deposit instruments of ratification and a roadmap for the integration of the new member into the organisation.

This press release in January 2024 specifically refers to "the integration of the Federal Republic of Somalia" into the EAC as a process that will start "once the nation deposits the instruments of ratification with the Secretary General."

I agree that other pages and sources indicate something different, so that we are faced with contradictory information. We may be transparent about it and say that some sources already consider Somalia as a member, but clearly it is not the case for most sources on the EAC website, including recent ones. A treaty is in force when it has been ratified, not when it has been signed. Visuals indicating that Somalia would be a full member correspond more to wishfull thinking or forward-looking communication.

Ydecreux (talk) 09:58, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Given that the situation is not 100% clear, this is where Wikipedia policy requires us to defer to secondary sources for interpretation (as I mentioned in my previous response). jhpratt (talk) 04:01, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Here a secondary source that confirms that Somalia has joined EAC (like other secondary sources do), and that membership will be official when Somalia has completed the ratification process: [2]. The problem of some other secondary sources is that they are incomplete. Ydecreux (talk) 08:23, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

That is one source. Personally? It would seem that Somalia is a member but not a full member at the moment. An overwhelming majority of reliable sources indicate that Somalia is a member. If you would like to make a distinction between membership and enjoying the benefits from the EAC, I have no objection to doing so. But claiming that EAC is not a member (as the article currently does) makes zero sense based on the totality of sources. jhpratt (talk) 23:04, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

No evidence has been provided that Somalia has formally completed the accession process to join. Even the article linked above only refers to joining in the headline, but that is not a reliable source (see WP:HEADLINE). The article text itself is clear, the state was admitted (ie. the EAC agreed to accept their membership application), but actually joining is still pending.

Somalia's parliament itself only agreed to join in a couple weeks ago ([3]). Why would they be voting to do somethign that has alreadly happened?

Take a look at the last example of a new member state joining. South Sudan was admitted in March 2022, but did complete ratification of its treaty of accession until July 2022. What date does the EAC list as the date it joined? July 2022, as expected.

Somalia will likley join in the near future, at which point the EAC will put out a press release announcing that they are now members. That will be the date that they consider them to have joined. There's no need to prematurely state something on wikipedia that is not yet true. TDL (talk) 19:04, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

You're citing WP:HEADline, but the bodies of the articles say the exact same thing. All of these quotes are from the bodies of articles.

• "Somalia has been admitted into the East African Community (EAC). After ratification by the Somali Federal Parliament, the membership will become official." [4] Per your comment, the Somali parliament has ratified it.
• "Somalia has joined the East African Community … Somalia becomes the eighth member" [5]
• "Somalia officially joined the Community of East African States (EAC) on Friday" [6]
• "Somalia was on Friday formally admitted as the 8th member state of the East African community (EAC)" [7]
• "Some of these “very significant achievements” included … joining regional bloc the East African Community" [8]
• "Somalia has been admitted as the eighth member of the East African Community" [9]
• "The East African Community trade bloc admitted Somalia as its eighth member" [10]
• "Somalia was admitted on Friday into the East African Community (EAC) as the eighth member of the bloc" [11]
• "Somalia has formally been admitted to the East African Community (EAC)." [12]
• "President Hassan Sheikh Mohamud of Somalia made a historic move by signing the Treaty of Accession, officially marking the Federal Republic of Somalia as the eighth member of the East African Community (EAC)." [13]
• "The East African Community trade bloc admitted Somalia as its eighth member on Friday" [14]

That is my evidence. Is eleven sources insufficient? You are relying almost entirely on primary sources (the EAC itself) and your own interpretation. As I said in a previous comment, Wikipedia policy requires us to defer to secondary sources for interpretation: "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." [15]

How can you assert that Somalia has not been admitted as a member to the EAC? Being admitted to it and joining is the exact same thing. Six of the eleven sources explicitly state that Somalia is the eighth member.

Regarding why the Somali parliament would vote for something that has already happened, it is presumably provisional application of a treaty, which is extremely common in situations like this. In any situation, it is up to secondary sources to interpret, not us. jhpratt (talk) 05:37, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

I have added this to the dispute resolution noticeboard, as I think having an uninterested party with no prior knowledge may be helpful. [16] jhpratt (talk) 05:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Your list of examples above demonstrate some confusion in the concepts: being admitted and becoming a member are two different things. All these sources claiming that Somalia has been admitted as the 8th member of EAC do not mean that it is the 8th member. They just mean that the country has been admitted. Applying and being admitted to Harvard does not necessarily imply that one will study at Harvard. Your first source says explicitly that Somalia is not yet officially a member—you know it because I pointed it out to you—but you still try to use it to make your point. The fact that the Parliament has approved the entry into EAC does not mean that Somalia has ratified anything. Besides, Parliament approval may not be the only step to complete. The vast majority of your examples say exactly the same thing: Somalia has been admitted, because they are dated November 2023, i.e. before Somalia had even signed the treaty of admission. Ydecreux (talk) 21:05, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Parliament's ratification seem to be considered by some Somali national sources as an important step that has come earlier than expected [17]. It may imply that Somalia will deposit its instruments of ratification rather soon. When it happens, new sources will likely announce again that Somalia has become the 8th member of EAC, like others did in November and December 2023. Ydecreux (talk) 21:24, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

11 sources that supported your position would indeed be helpful. However, I agreed with Ydecreux that your conclusions are based on a misinterpretation of many of the sources due to conflating admission and joining as a member, which contrary to your claims are not the "exact same thing".

Additionally, there are plenty of secondary sources supporting the position that Somalia is not yet officially a member. Beyond the one that I've already provided above, here is another:

• "Somalia has until June to deposit the ratified instruments of the Treaty of accession at the EAC headquarters to become an official full-fledged member."

Also, you didn't respond to the point about South Sudan's accession. Based on your position on Somalia becoming a member as soon as the other states voted to admit it, I presume you believe South Sudan became a member in March and not July 2022?

In the end, Somalia will likely join in the near future. There's WP:NODEADLINE, so rather than rushing to prematurely report something and misinform our readers, it's far better to wait until it's actually true. TDL (talk) 03:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

The article currently says "Somalia was formally invited to join the bloc as a full member on 24 November 2023". Literally every source says it was admitted. As I said before, I have no problem if the article were to indicate that Somalia is not a full member, as sources indicate, but saying that they were merely "invited" is incorrect. This idea was not addressed, yet I still feel this is the best way forward until there is absolute certainty. The source that you link says "full-fledged membership" is in the future, which I have never disputed. My assertion is that there is no reason to distinguish full-fledged membership from membership if they are one in the same.

Regarding South Sudan, I did not address it because it is a separate situation. However, the EAC lists "16 April 2016: The Republic of South Sudan joins the EAC.", followed by "becomes a full member" in September. (emphasis mine) [18] jhpratt (talk) 05:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Somalia was invited to join on 24 November 2023. It does not mean that it became a member on that day; only that it is the day the invitation was issued. Ydecreux (talk) 10:57, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Not a single source I have found indicates that they were "invited" on that day, but rather that they were "admitted". jhpratt (talk) 00:14, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I thought that you were quoting an external article. I modified the wording. Ydecreux (talk) 07:57, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah, apologies for the confusion. Are you open to replacing "membership" in the same paragraph with "full membership"? jhpratt (talk) 04:15, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Most sources only mention "membership". The phrase "full membership" would require additional clarification to be used. I added a new secondary source confirming that the process had not been completed mid-February. Ydecreux (talk) 09:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Looks like Somalia will submit its instrument of ratification, and thus become a member of the EAC, on Monday: [19]. TDL (talk) 02:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

And there are now tons of articles indicating that this has happened. It looks like the basics of the article have been updated, so any issue is now moot. jhpratt (talk) 02:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Ethiopia set to potentially join

Peninah Malonza, the cabinet secretary for Ministry of EAC, Arid and Semi-arid lands and regional development stated this while leading a food distribution drive and mentioned that talks between Ethiopia and the EAC summit heads are in the last stages and 'soon' Ethiopia will be apart of the bloc.

[20]https://www.kbc.co.ke/ethiopia-set-to-join-eac-cs-malonza-says/

I brought this up so someone could add it into the potential expansion section regarding Ethiopia :) ItzSyther (talk) 17:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it to my attention—I'll add it sometime in the next few weeks to this page and the EAF page. CatsThisTime (talk) 07:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Added. CatsThisTime (talk) 19:22, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

CatsThisTime edits

I've done a lot of edits recently so I thought I'd start a thread where people can lodge complaints or ask questions or ask for intent. I'll try to respond within a few days. CatsThisTime (talk) 07:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this thread and for the edits. Broadly I would comment that this article should avoid doing too much in Demographics, Geography, etc. where it ends up being just "The demographics is the demographics of Kenya+Uganda+etc.", although much of what you added comes from sources which do include the EAC context so that seems very reasonable. CMD (talk) 14:24, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree, I feel like that much more belongs in the East African Federation article (which is why I massively expanded the geography section there). A lot of my edits have been moving things about because when I was first researching into the topic with the intent of an encapsulating understanding of the history/trajectory of East Africa, I was constantly switching between the two articles and wondering why things were organized in the way they were. I added to the geography section of this article because I saw it was there and essentially a stub without really thinking if it should be there. Since the EAC is primarily economic, I think it's wise to focus mostly on history, economic, and integration issues. There is a strong argument for entirely moving demographics and geography to the EAF article, although I did try to keep the geography section on the EAC article short and mostly focus on what pertains to the economic of it. CatsThisTime (talk) 15:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Added information detailing the DRC's possible (and in my opinion, somewhat likely) exit from the EAC. Need to add Somalian section to "Issues" detailing the current war against terrorist groups in the country and the issue of Somaliland and Puntland. Somaliland has acted independently for decades while Puntland earlier this year declared itself temporarily independent until the constitution reforms that concentrate power in the executive are approved nationally via referendum. Considering that the majority of Somalia is either controlled by terrorist groups or various governmental organizations, having a section on this is important because it'll affect Somalia's ability to integrate in more than de jure. CatsThisTime (talk) 19:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)