Talk:Eggplant/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Solanum ovigerum

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Closed: there is no support for this merge. Swanny18 (talk) 18:46, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Nothing there what could not be treated here. Solanaceae Source considers them conspecific; S. ovigerum is apparently applied to "fancy" eggplant cultivars indiscriminately. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 01:25, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

That article is tiny, actually. However the two plants are not the same, they are only related. If we put every related plant in her hte article would be huge! Do not merge! Jubilee♫clipman 23:11, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree. I have no idea who suggested this merge, but a little more paying attention to what makes Solanum ovigerum an article on its own already is definitely needed. Do not merge. Pegasus Epsilon (talk) 16:21, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it is appropriate at this time to merge the two articles. While it is true that "S. ovigerum" was once used as a proper name for the Common Eggplant, this name is now used only for a particular plant with small yellow or white fruits, which is not a direct cultivar of S. melongena. This type of plant seems to have given the common name "Eggplant", but there is now disagreement as to relation between S. melogena and S. ovigerum. Some authorities do consider them conspecific (belonging to the same species), though in even in these cases there is disagreement of their relationship with the species; in any event they would likely represent different subspecies, not simply different cultivars. On the other hand, other authors clearly separate the two (e.g., a report from the University of Florida, [1]). It should also be noted that the fruit of S. ovigera is poisonous, unlike it culinary cousin. Until such a time as the scientific community reaches agreement on the relation between the two plants, the pages should remain separate. Secondarily, the link provided does not seem to function. At the page [2] S. ovigerum is listed as a synonym for S. melogena, but this is due to confusion between the two plants and their relation-- a confusion which persists. There are, in fact, ornamental varieties of S. melogena, some of which produce small, white fruits. However, these are much more recent cultivars. The origins of the true S. ovigerum predate the original description by Linnaeus in 1753. Do not merge. --Anthrakeus (talk) 06:51, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be no support for this merge proposal, so I'm closing it (doing the BOLD thing...) Swanny18 (talk) 18:44, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Propose change to neutral name

Since there are two commonly used names, each used exclusive to the other in different regions, a neutral name should be used. I propose moving the name to the Latin name for the plant, which both British and Americans can agree on. Arguments based on number of speakers and original page-name are invalid when either name choice is likely to leave the other confused.—Preceding unsigned comment added by FOARP (talk • contribs) 11:18, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

While I am inclined to agree that a neutral name should be chosen, I would have reservations about the article name as "Solanum melogena". While not always, generally the common name of food plants is used as the article name on Wikipedia, with the scientific name only being used for a second article when scientific data are split from culinary and cultural information. While I am an American English speaker, and thus have some bias, I would prefer the article name remain "Eggplant". The title "Aubergine" does redirect to this page, so that only minimal confusion should result. I wonder to what degree the use of the term "eggplant" by Americans, Canadians, and Australians is known in Great Britain. The use of "aubergine" is all but unknown in the U.S. --Anthrakeus (talk) 06:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

It's just not true that 'Aubergine' is unknown in the US - I've seen the name used in supermarkets from Hawaii to Connecticut. I have certainly seen it in regular use throughout Canada. DickyP (talk) 08:52, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Aubergine is the generally known and accepted culinary term. There is no usage of 'Egg plant' here. No-one in a good kitchen would call it an egg plant. Zen Cyfarwydd (talk)

S. ovigerumas described by Dunal [3]is not the Easter-Eggplant, S. ovigerum resembles blue witch nightshade. Further genetic test are being preformed to distinguish the true phylogeny of this hybrid. -C.Lofty Winthrop University

I'd usually argue for the British term, but "Eggplant" seems alright to me in this instance. It may be due to them seemingly appearing in US media only (bar food programmes and some Japanese games, including Ice Climber).

The article already indicates the term eggplant as having originated in identifying one particular variety of aubergine (the fruits of which were "yellow or white and resembled goose or hen's eggs"). It therefore follows that it cannot, and should not, be used as the generic term for all varieties of aubergine. A previous commentator wonders "to what degree the use of the term 'eggplant' ... is known in Great Britain" - the answer is "almost none"; when encountering this strange word (e.g. in a North American-originated recipe), one invariably has to turn to some reference source in order to confirm that aubergine is actually the required ingredient. Arguing that "The use of 'aubergine' is all but unknown in the U.S." does not make it wrong or inferior; it simply confirms that a large (but not authoritative) population is ignorant of (what many English-speakers believe to be) the correct name for this plant.Cupid1889 (talk) 10:17, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

If we go by the number of people who use a particular name, Brinjal will be the winner, as it is referred so in all of Indian subcontinent, Britain, Singapore, & Malaysia. Also check Bt_brinjal. I suggest making Brinjal the main heading with Eggplant redirecting to this page. rams81 (talk) 16:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Support FOARP's proposal. Witness the tower-of-babble effect in this short discussion alone. One main idea of scientific naming was to avoid such messes. In response to Anthrakeus, I don't think most food plant articles are titled with their common names, only the most major - there are hundreds of minor food plant articles that are listed under their Genus epithet. Hamamelis (talk) 08:30, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Support FOARP's proposal, too. As far as my experience, a popular food plant will be titled under its best known epithet. But, if such a plant has several, it's better to go with the scientific name in order to mitigate the confusion. If there's no objection, we should redirect this page to Solanum melongena, as it is literally the most neutral term.--Mr Fink (talk) 13:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Oppose Going by the total number of people using this vegetable and a particular name, the most popular name would be 'Brinjal' as used by people of Indian subcontinent, and places like Malaysia and Singapore. The current status of all popular names redirecting to this article works fine and should be retained. rams81 (talk) 14:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Oppose. As this is the English language wikipedia, the word "eggplant" still is the most used by native English speakers. - Takeaway (talk) 15:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment American English, or British English? Americans universally refer to it as "eggplant," but British refer to it as "aubergine" (It's one way you can tell which country a cookbook is written)--Mr Fink (talk) 18:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The somewhat rambling post at the bottom of this page mentions that Google shows 21.7 million hits for aubergine, and 29.6 million hits for eggplant. As the word "aubergine" is also used in French, German and Dutch (together some 170 million speakers) and perhaps also in a few more languages, you would need to subtract some of the Google hits for "aubergine". This would give the word "eggplant" an even bigger lead over "aubergine" as most used word by English speakers, be they from America, Britian, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.. - Takeaway (talk) 19:35, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I thought egg plant was slang, anyway only a minortiy of people say egg plant so Aubergine would be better — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fdsdh1 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

"a minority of people" where? In the US, no one refers to the plant as an "aubergine." In fact, I'm not sure if Americans are even capable of pronouncing "aubergine"--Mr Fink (talk) 14:45, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

This all seems a pretty pointless argument - the current naming works well and redirects from various names. Moreover the name "aubergine" seems to be used solely to refer to the purple (where the color aubergine originates) variety of eggplant in most European shops and markets I've encountered. Many of the others are on sale and often go by separate names, whereas eggplant appears to be a catchall for all varieties. Ain't broke - don't fix it! DickyP (talk) 18:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense to prefer Eggplant due to a majority of speakers in the United States using it. By that logic, Brinjal is the the most common due to usage in the Indian subcontinent. "Native English" speakers is an arbitrary distinction. It is impossible to generalize to which country there are native speakers. The scientific name makes the most sense. It is globally accepted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.173.26.250 (talk) 06:45, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Any "neutral" term would violate Wikipedia article naming policy per WP:Common name. The 2 common names in English for this plant are very clearly "eggplant" and "aubergine". The U.S. uses the term "eggplant" almost exclusively. I have never even heard of "aubergine" before reading this article, nor have I ever heard the word spoken. Wikipedia policy is very clear on this point. Per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Retaining_the_existing_variety: "An article should not be edited or renamed simply to switch from one variety of English to another." There are many examples like this on Wikipedia. Sometimes the British word is used for the article title, and sometimes the American word is used. But the Manual of Style is very clear that you should not change an article title from one version of English to another once an article has been established. Rreagan007 (talk) 06:38, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons given above. An example of an article using the scientific name is Tilia (lime tree in England, linden tree in the U.S.). An example of an article using the British name is Aluminium (aluminum in the U.S.). People used to "aubergine" get the same surprise when the article redirects to Eggplant that Americans get when they search for "aluminum" and the article redirects to Aluminium. CorinneSD (talk) 18:50, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'm British, but we have to accept that these squabbles over regional names never get anywhere. Anyone who thinks the eggplant/aubergine dispute is worth pursuing should have a look at the rutabaga talk page archives. --Ef80 (talk) 19:42, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Advertisement should be removed

The comment about Stemulite appears to be blatant advertisement for a body building product. The reference quoted is a company website rather than scientific research to verify the claims made. IMHO it has no place in this article and doesn't add to a reader's knowledge about the topic. Madenningmojo (talk) 23:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Additional references - full access to articles necessary to expand the article

History section

• "Ancient chinese literature reveals pathways of eggplant domestication". Annals of Botany. 102: 891–897. 2008. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |authors= ignored (help)

Earliest record of the eggplant documented in ancient Chinese literature was in a work from 59 BC (Wang Bao in his work Tong Yue as well as by Yang Xiong in his famous A Rhapsody on Metropolitan of Shu (Yang, 1st century BC to 1st century AD)

• Wang B. Tong Yue; Xu J; et al. (eds.). 59 BC. Chu Xue Ji / Entry into learning (in Chinese). Beijing: Zhonghua Book Company. pp. 466–467. {{cite book}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |editor2= (help)
• "The Cucurbitaceae and Solanaceae illustrated in medieval manuscripts known as the Tacuinum Sanitatis". Annals of Botany. 103(8): 1187–1205. doi:10.1093/aob/mcp055. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |Year= ignored (|year= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |authors= ignored (help)

Tacuinum Sanitatis, the Latin translation of an 11th-century Arabic manuscript known as Taqwim al-Sihha bi al-Ashab al-Sitta contained illustration of Solanum melongena.

General

• Vegetables. Plant Resources of Tropical Africa (Program). 2004. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |Author= ignored (|author= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |Publisher= ignored (|publisher= suggested) (help)

Sanskrit etymology

Needs a cleanup. Article explains that aubergine + brinjal are rooted etymologically in Sanskrit. It specifically refers to vātiga-gama, confirmed by Wiktionary: वातिगगम#Sanskrit -- वातिगगम. However, Wiktionary relates brinjal to a different Sanskrit word Wiktionary:brinjal#English -- भण्टाकी bhaṇṭākī. Which is it? Maybe it's both. Does anybody know? --NinetyNineFennelSeeds (talk) 14:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

The article cites inaccurate entertainment-class articles as sources for the etymology. Are there better sources? The melon- root comes from a Sanskrit (to perhaps Persian but likely directly) to Greek to Medieval Latin path, it never meant mad or bad. The other root is also from Sanskrit via Persian and Arabic to Spanish. This is likely because domestication of the fruit occurred in two different events in Southeast Asia. So basically the etymology section has to be improved to support the assertions of the rest of the article.68.37.168.37 (talk) 15:27, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree that the etymology section can be improved. In particular, what ever happened to Sanskrit vātingāna? Table Matters is not a top academic journal, but it's not "entertainment-class" either. See their About page. Still, its aubergine < alberge is bogus; let's check their source. OED s.v. aubergine indeed gives that etymology, but s.v. brinjal gives the more usual etymology from Sp. berengena < Ar. bāðinjān. I guess an example of the phenomenon that the 'A' volume of the original OED was not as solid as later volumes. I'll make some improvements. --Macrakis (talk) 16:58, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Bitter taste

I came across this statement on Eu-sol.net: "Wild eggplant is so bitter that it is almost inedible for humans." I think that's an interesting observation, since the bitterness of eggplant is something that most of us eggplant cooks must deal with from time to time; however, I'd like corroboration that it is not just an anecdotal comment.--NinetyNineFennelSeeds (talk) 15:14, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Baingan/Bengan

User:117.196.218.125 has added the above names. In which Indian languages do these words mean "eggplant"? If an Indian is speaking English, would he use "baingain" or "bengan", rather than "brinjal" or "eggplant"? btw in "Cooking", there is a reference to the dish, baingan ka bhartha.--NinetyNineFennelSeeds (talk) 12:39, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I've removed these, because they are not English language names of the plant. 87.84.103.101 (talk) 20:06, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

1902 source

I'm curious about Nachtrieb BJ, Pederson D. 1902. Historia Colonici Australiae. 512p. Neither "Nachtrieb BJ", nor "Historia Colonici Australiae" get a single google hit. I've also searched amazon, a rare book store, the library of congress, national library of Australia, and a number of other book databases, and could not locate this book anywhere. I want to assume good faith, but I'm a little concerned that this is a fake source. Is there any way to confirm this book exists? Does any library contain it that lists it's catalog online? Thanks. -Andrew c ^[talk] 15:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The claim is fantastic and the existence of the source cannot be confirmed so the claim should be removed. Qemist (talk) 21:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Bt Brinjal

This source (quoted in the article) states the moratorium is indefinite, while this source states it's for six months. Can anyone clarify? Greenman (talk) 13:34, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Parmigiana not a stew

"Parmigiana di melanzane" or "Melanzane alla parmigiana" (eggplant/aubergine parmigiana) is not a stew like ratatouille. The fruits are deep fried (after dipping in egg batter in some variants) and then baked in the oven. I suspect moussaka is made similarly. I will edit the main page if I see no objections. Rikypedia (talk) 03:50, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Aubergine/Eggplant

I didn't know Aubergine had a diffrent name in English , let alone called "Eggplant" (lol)

Aubergine Google search result: 21,700,000 Eggplant: 29,600,000

brinjal: 1,610,000

hmm, very close there. Allsow,in the article:

The popular name eggplant is used in the United States, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. It derives from the fruits of some 18th century European cultivars which were yellow or white and resembled goose or hen's eggs.

Different varieties of the plant produce fruit of different size, shape and color, though typically purple. There are even orange varieties.

I belive Aubergine is the most common word (atleast in Eu/the west in general & Eng-cooking shows,resturant world etc) for this vegetable, maybe not used by a small majority in English-speaking countries's , so not change it today, but someday, not so distant near-future.

A tip to those who want to try and eat this vegetable for the first time:

It taste allot better if it's roasted a lil bit. I know, it sounds wierd, but it really does taste better a lil roasted then when it's raw.

search for it, im sure there's some recipes out there. (seen it on tv,read and tried it myself.) --109.58.54.160 (talk) 21:19, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The word "aubergine" is also used in a few other languages such as French, German and Dutch. This would inflate the amount of Google hits for aubergine. The word "eggplant" is only used by English speakers. - Takeaway (talk) 21:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

More on allergies?

The article doesn't have much on allergies, and only mentions mild allergic reactions, not severe ones. Nothing about struggling to breathe for more than a day after low-level exposure. 173.66.211.53 (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

If you have articles and or other references about severe allergic reactions due to eating eggplants, and are able to tie it into the article, then please feel free to do so.--Mr Fink (talk) 17:23, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't have access to most journals, so I'm afraid I can't do that. 173.66.211.53 (talk) 20:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Not even with scholar.google.com and Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request‎?--Mr Fink (talk) 00:35, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Arabic text

Hi guys, I'm using the Opera browser, who does better than my other browsers when text mixes rtl and ltr. However it's got an issue where this text is: "then by Arabic as (al-)bāḏinjān" -- the ref part ([5]) is being split across the Arabic word, I suspect because of the weakness of the 5 ] and . characters. So I'm going to try to see if, when editing Wikipedia, I can add in any of the special HTML character entities LRM or RLM. More about these characters: http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/#lrmrlm 80.101.169.16 (talk) 09:18, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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🍆

Given the redirect from 🍆, should there be a mention of the common semantics of U+1F346? This particular emoji is also often used crudely to represent the male genitalia[4] --176.2.76.10 (talk) 09:00, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Phenolics in pulp

User Caftaric added the section below which I removed twice per WP:NOTJOURNAL. The text does not require the chemical details of all the phenolics defined to date; a simple reference would be sufficient. --Zefr (talk) 19:53, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Removed content and references

Chlorogenic acid (5-O-caffeoylquinic acid) is the most abundant phenolic acid in the pulp of the fruit. Its 3-O-, 4-O- and 5-O-cis isomers are also present. Other phenolics fall into different groups, including 3,5- and 4,5-dicaffeoylquinic acid isomers, amide conjugates and 3-O-acetyl esters of 5-O- and 4-O-caffeoylquinic acid. N-caffeoylputrescine, N,N-dicaffeoylspermidine, as well as quercetin-3-glucoside, quercetin-3-rhamnoside and myricetin-3-galactoside in trace quantities, are also detected.

Should the name at the top of the infobox match the page title?

I understand that the various regional names for this fruit may lead to people being confused, however I think that the name at the top of the infobox should match the name of the article. The content in the article clears up the fact that it's called different things already. Torma616 (talk) 08:04, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that this is necessary. (Personally I'd only ever have the scientific name there; this is a box summarizing taxonomic information, not vernacular names.) Whether "brinjal" is worth including there is another matter. When I do a Google search I get about 31 million hits for "eggplant" and about 22 million for "aubergine" but less than a million for "brinjal", so there's a case for excluding it. But it should be in the lead, in my view: it's widely used worldwide; I've frequently seen it on menus in Indian restaurants in the UK and elsewhere. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:03, 10 December 2015 (UTC)