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@Ceoil: I understand why you deleted Barbara Holper; at least now a redirect exists. What I would ultimately propose is that this very incomplete article on Albrecht Dürer the Elder be moved to a Family of Albrecht Dürer article, where information on his mother and siblings could also be found (avoiding the need for duplication). I understand that the information exists in other places, but if you are looking for biographical background, rather than artwork-related commentary, there is no place to find that currently. UpdateNerd (talk) 22:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fine but please create a coherent article that stands on its own, and not a muddled copy/paste fork of existing content. How familiar are you with the sources. Of course, relatively little is known, so maybe first start to add to the main bio. But you are right...we do now have a redirect. Ceoil (talk) 22:36, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ceoil: I restructured and moved the article as proposed. Hopefully more information will be forthcoming. One loose end is the categories; I'm not sure it's appropriate to keep those which are exclusive to one member. UpdateNerd (talk) 23:22, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose this move. Right now there's material that's been copied from other articles without attribution. Let's at least get consensus through a move request or however it's done. Furthermore the copying issues need to be sorted out per Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia.Victoria (tk) 23:47, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I was careful to include citations. Could you be more specific? Oops, I see what you mean now. I'm happy to rephrase and find additional source if needed. UpdateNerd (talk) 23:52, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I also oppose this move, for many reasons, including careless lack of regard of the way wiki structures articles around major artists, the total disregard for attribution (right now you are basically plagiarizing), fear of setting precedent, bla. This all is very hard to take from somebody who had the gall a few hours ago to tell Johnbod, who wrote the Durer bio, how to conduct his business. Ceoil (talk) 23:56, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are sentences here that are directly copied from other Wikipedia articles. Please read Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia carefully and understand that attribution is always needed when copying from one article to another. Victoria (tk) 23:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC) After edit conflict: rephrasing doesn't fix it because it's now in the history here. Taking from one article that someone or more than one person has written and copying to another without attribution isn't allowed. My advice would be a. to get some better sources (Ceoil nicely linked a fabulous source today); b. slow down; and c. do the reading. That will cause fewer problems. Victoria (tk) 23:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I was honestly not aware that Wikipedia articles could not copy text from other articles without attribution; I guess that would be a Creative Commons stipulation. Note I have amended it to not do so so blatantly. Ceoil seemed agreeable to the move above; maybe the Family of Albrecht Dürer article should be separate, preserving Albrecht Dürer the Elder (which again, seemed rather bare bones and not a problem to overwrite in an attempt to restructure more coherently). I understand that reading and adding sources in an original manner is the best way to expand articles, but I found it problematic there being no central biography of Dürer's mother. And incidentally, I did not think I was telling anyone (whose time with the article I was previous ignorant of) how to conduct their business, merely making points and listening to counterpoints. It's everyone's right to do so, as long as we remain civil. Unfortunately this mode of discussion is limited in several ways, so just focusing on articles and avoiding discussions is really the best. Thanks everyone for contributing, and sorry for clashing by being abrupt. UpdateNerd (talk) 00:09, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ok Update, I take it now that you are acting in good faith, and worse things happen at sea. But there was a series of blunders, so please be more careful in future. Ceoil (talk) 00:32, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
