Talk:Furman–Wofford football rivalry

Furman–Wofford football rivalry has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: October 29, 2022. (Reviewed version).

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A fact from Furman–Wofford football rivalry appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 31 March 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that rivals Furman and Wofford played the first college football game in South Carolina on December 14, 1889?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/March. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Furman–Wofford football rivalry.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 21:17, 24 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

)

... that rivals Furman and Wofford played the first college football game in South Carolina on December 14, 1889? Source: "Wofford and Furman renew SC's oldest rivalry"
- ALT1:... that the first college football game played in South Carolina was between Furman and Wofford in 1889, whose rivalry series continues to this day? Source: "Wofford and Furman renew SC's oldest rivalry"

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/The House of Yes (play)
Comment: Article created in userspace on 19 February 2020, moved to mainspace on 21 February 2020.

Moved to mainspace by PCN02WPS (talk). Self-nominated at 15:27, 22 February 2020 (UTC).[reply]

This article is new enough and long enough. The hook facts are cited inline and either hook could be used, the article is neutral and I detected no copyright issues (Earwig was down). A QPQ has been done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 07:01, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

Passed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:02, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Furman–Wofford football rivalry/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Lee Vilenski (talk · contribs) 19:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I am planning on reviewing this article for GA Status, over the next couple of days. Thank you for nominating the article for GA status. I hope I will learn some new information, and that my feedback is helpful.

If nominators or editors could refrain from updating the particular section that I am updating until it is complete, I would appreciate it to remove a edit conflict. Please address concerns in the section that has been completed above (If I've raised concerns up to references, feel free to comment on things like the lede.)

I generally provide an overview of things I read through the article on a first glance. Then do a thorough sweep of the article after the feedback is addressed. After this, I will present the pass/failure. I may use strikethrough tags when concerns are met. Even if something is obvious why my concern is met, please leave a message as courtesy.

Best of luck! you can also use the {{done}} tag to state when something is addressed. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)}

Please let me know after the review is done, if you were happy with the review! Obviously this is regarding the article's quality, however, I want to be happy and civil to all, so let me know if I have done a good job, regardless of the article's outcome.

Links

Prose

Lede

variously referred to as - variously is probably the wrong word. How about "sometimes"? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Done – changed to "sometimes" PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:29, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The links for the names - can we not have them in the body somewhere instead? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you referring to the references for the names the game is referred to or the links for the schools or their football programs? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:29, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Apologies, I mean the references in the lede. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not really a "rivalry game". It's an annual (bi-annual?) Football match. We don't need to say rivalry until we talk about the matches they've had. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Why do you say it's not a "rivalry game"? Are you disagreeing with the "rivalry" or the "game" part of the phrase? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:29, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - The phrase "rivalry game". That suggests it's a game designed to be part of a rivalry. If we look at other articles on "rivalries", such as the Old Firm or North London derby these are matches between two teams who share a rivalry. As an opening to an article, we should describe what the article is about, which in this case is a match that takes place (twice?) a year between two teams Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The teams have met on the football field 95 times - I'd be worried if they met somewhere else. What about The teams have played 95 times. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:29, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
with Furman currently leading the series, 55–33–7 - for a non-American, you'd probably be better off sayingFurman have won 55 matches, Wofford 33 and have tied on seven occasions. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Done with slightly modified wording. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was kind of expecting the lede to go into at least a little depths as to what makes it a rivalry. Two teams playing a lot does not make a rivalry. Everton F.C. have played Aston Villa have played 103 matches in England, but hardly have a Rivalry. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- College football rivalries are certainly not defined solely on number of games played but a lengthy history doesn't hurt. There are no black-and-white rules for which teams are rivals with which other teams; it really just comes down to who the schools consider their rivals to be and who the media report as having a rivalry. In this case, we have both. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:58, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On that - there's no info on what the matches are like - are they usually tight/rough or technical matches? I was expecting some reception. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:21, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Coaches and players change from year to year so there is really no consistent trend on the style of how the games are played or the characteristics of those games. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:58, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

General

according to rules that were developed before the start of the game, - I don't think this means what it's supposed to. This means that the event had pre-determined rules... Which should be always true. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- This references the fact that Wofford wanted to use one set of rules but the referee and others involved decided to use another set of rules; I have reworded this sentence in an attempt to clarify that without repeating it since it is detailed in the section for this particular game. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This uses "series" and "game" interchangeably. The 5-1 was a match score or series score? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- "Series" and "game" describe two different concepts, so the terms are not used interchangeably. American football does not format their season to play series in the same way that baseball and some other sports do; rather, a "series" between two teams is the overall all-time historical record between them. This section states that The series between Furman and Wofford dates back to December 14, 1889..., meaning that was the first time they played. The first game (which was the aforementioned Dec 14 1889 game) was won by Wofford, 5 to 1. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - Just for a non-American, how does a team score just one point in Grid Iron football? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:22, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - Ah, that is definitely a fair question. While scoring one point is technically still allowed by the rules (see here if you're really curious), for all intents and purposes scoring one point on its own isn't possible anymore. Scoring rules varied wildly in the early days of the sport and so rules may have been different from game to game. This led to some final scores that seem bizarre today, like 5–1 or 13¾–0. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:04, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
due to its status as the oldest rivalry in South Carolina. - cite? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Done PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:59, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the most notable of these occurred - not for us to say. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Done – reworded PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Major interruptions have also taken place from 1922–28, 1941–46 (due to World War II, neither school fielded a team from 1943–45),[1][2] and 1980–93, with the exception of one game played in 1989 - any info on why they didn't play during these times.Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunately I haven't found much of anything, but I will keep looking. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:56, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
located in Greenville and Spartanburg - this is commented on in the prior section but with no links. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Done – moved links to prior section. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
28.61 miles (46.04 km) apart, and a driving distance of 36.93 miles (59.43 km). - this is far too much detail. "Less than 50 miles apart" is plenty. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Done – reworded. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Do we need the lineup of the first game? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- I suppose we don't need it, but there isn't a ton of detail about the first game out there otherwise (at least that I can find). PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think it's too much detail - we don't have an article for any of the players, so it's just noise. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:22, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    - Done – fair enough, removed. I also did add a little detail about the different rules that each team wanted in that paragraph, just to clarify. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:04, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This resulted in the game finishing in favor of the Terriers, 14–12, for their first win against Furman since 1916. - cite? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:53, 15 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Done – added cite. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Review meta comments

I'll begin the review as soon as I can! If you fancy returning the favour, I have a list of nominations for review at WP:GAN and WP:FAC, respectively. I'd be very grateful if you were to complete one of these if you get time. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Lee Vilenski most suggestions taken care of and some comments/clarifications above. Thank you for the review! PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:59, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.