Talk:Genocide of Indigenous Australians

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Section sizes

Section size for Genocide of Indigenous Australians (13 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	4,765	4,765
Historical context	6,261	6,261
Alleged acts of genocide	8,444	8,444
Particular instances	27	9,161
Tasmania	6,194	6,194
Queensland	2,940	2,940
Scholarly and popular debate	35	5,789
Scholarly debate	3,254	3,254
Popular debate	2,500	2,500
Legacy and recognition	3,077	3,077
See also	129	129
References	30	13,802
Works cited	13,772	13,772
Total	51,428	51,428

Utility of the article

Though I would have thought it goes without saying, I am anticipating that some editors on this site might argue against the benefits of an entry on this subject.

In anticipation of the argument that this page could be subsumed within the pages: Frontier Wars, or List of massacres of Indigenous Australians; this page addresses a conceptually distinct topic.

The Frontier Wars page doesn't fully address the topic covered by this article, as it is historically bounded, and primarily only addresses one form of genocide. The list page also isn't wide enough in scope, because it excludes acts of genocide commonly described as such, that aren't massacres; one example being the eugenicist policies of A. O. Neville. Jack4576 (talk) 16:09, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Genocides can not be covered in an article about massacres. The concept of genocide is not limited to killing. Per the main article, it includes causing serious bodily or mental harm to the targeted group, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Dimadick (talk) 20:47, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Jack4576 (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aboriginals

This rename from "Genocide of Indigenous Australians" to "Australian genocide of Aboriginals" and subsequent rewording of the lead sentence is problematic in that it uses "Aboriginal" as a noun, which is generally considered not appropriate, per Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia/Draft style guide1 and Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia/Conventions/Indigenous draft. It's also problematic in that "Aboriginals" (in the article title) excludes Torres Strait Islanders, but the article scope includes them. I'm not sure what the appropriate fix is (other than reverting). What are the "other articles" with "similar titles"? Mitch Ames (talk) 08:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It is problematic, and should be avoided/reverted. Additionally, there are Indigenous Australians that were subject to genocide (e.g. torres straight islanders) that are not generally identified by the term aboriginal. Jack4576 (talk) 11:43, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Denialism section

I see by the RFC at the main Australia article there is the old denialism reasonings....think we need a section to educate our readers/editors on how the academic world looks at this now.Moxy🍁 15:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draft

Draft;...working on sources.....some of these papers are huge

Genocide denialism is a widely recognized issue that has affected many Indigenous Australians.^[1] Despite overwhelming evidence of the atrocities committed against Indigenous Australians during colonization,^[2]^[3]^[4] there are still individuals and groups who deny or minimize the extent of the genocide that took place.^[5]^[6]^[7] One of the key arguments used by genocide denialists is the claim that the actions taken against Indigenous Australians were not systematic or intentional like other genocidal events.^[8] They often argue that the high death tolls were a result of mainly disease rather than deliberate acts of violence and the effects of dispossession.^[9]^[10] Another tactic is to downplay the impact of these atrocities on Indigenous Australians today.^[10] They argue that since the genocide happened in the past, it has no relevance to the current State of affairs.^[11]^[12]

According to Hannah Baldry, "The Australian Government appears to have long suffered a form of 'denialism' that has consistently deprived the country's Aboriginal population of acknowledgment of the crimes perpetrated against their ancestors."^[13] This includes ongoing debates about the interpretation of history, including calling Australia's national myth as an invasion or settlement.^[14]

Discussion

Worth saying that this discourse takes place in the wider context of the culture wars [1]. Can the sentence The Australian Government appears to have long suffered a form of 'denialism' that has consistently deprived the country's Aboriginal population of acknowledgment of the crimes perpetrated against their ancestors be reworded such that it doesn't need attribution? There are plenty of sources that discuss this. You might find Taylor 2023, Manne 2001, and Tatz 2016 useful. Kowal2701 (talk) 16:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More accessible link for Tatz, I couldn't find a better link for Manne but he's written extensively on this. Kowal2701 (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to jump in and make any corrections or amendments. .... We have a long way to go to get it up to par with articles like Canadian genocide of Indigenous peoples. We need to explain somehow that reconciliation is far behind other Western Nations in Australia..... For instance still no treaties for indigenous people to refer to for legal and human rights help. There is current information in the article that should be incorporated into this paragraph or section whatever.Moxy🍁 16:41, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A comparison with New Zealand is especially stark. This could be due a sentence or paragraph in the denialism section, some sources: chapter 11 and this. Kowal2701 (talk) 17:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have made a bold rewrite of this section. The problem I had with it was that it was written like an essay trying to "prove" denialism. The term "denialism" is itself loaded because it implies that anyone who questions any aspect of the argument for genocide is the moral equivalent of a Holocaust or climate science denier. I think it is much better to separate the scholarly debate from the public and political debate about genocide and child removals in Australia that exploded from about 1997. We shouldn't suggest that those scholars who point out that most of the population decline was from introduced diseases or who question whether particular events satisfied the legal definition of genocide are the equivalent of the shock jocks who were trying to spark a culture war. We also need to be careful of the date of sources. Most of those citations supporting statements about "current denialism" are from 2003. The section still needs a lot of work but I thinkI have improved it. I also think we need to keep it short. The last thing we need is another article rehashing the "History Wars". Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 07:48, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have just replaced a paragraph which was very similar to one on scholarly debate in the "Legacy and recognition" section. I have moved the Legacy and Recognition section to a more logical place. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good ......agree Australia is not quite ready for full recognition yet. Give them a decade or 2 for historians etc associated with the Australian right to get caught up. Moxy🍁 13:26, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

References

^ Attwood, Bain (2001). "The Stolen Generations and genocide: Robert Manne's". Aboriginal History. 25. ANU Press: 163–172. ISSN 0314-8769. JSTOR 45135477. Retrieved November 10, 2024.
^ Tatz, Colin. "Genocide in Australia". The Koori History Project. Retrieved 2024-11-10.
^ Maynard, Professor John (January 26, 1988). "Genocide in Australia". The Australian Museum. Retrieved November 10, 2024.
^ Ryan, Lyndall (May 4, 2023). "Frontier Massacres in Australia, 1788–1928". The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Cambridge University Press. p. 461–480. doi:10.1017/9781108765480.020. ISBN 978-1-108-76548-0.
^ "Killing Without Murder: Aboriginal Assimilation Policy as Genocide". I-Portal: Indigenous Studies Portal. p. 4. Retrieved 2024-11-10. PDF
^ Tatz, C. (2001). Confronting Australian Genocide. Aboriginal History, 25, 16–36.
^ "The truth about white Australia: The genocide few talk about". CGTN. 2021-09-17. Retrieved 2024-11-10.
^ Dirk Moses, A. (2003). "Genocide and Holocaust Consciousness in Australia". History Compass. 1 (1). doi:10.1111/1478-0542.028. ISSN 1478-0542.
^ Moses, A.D. (2004). Genocide and Settler Society: Frontier Violence and Stolen Indigenous Children in Australian History. War and Genocide. Berghahn Books. pp. 15, 16. ISBN 978-1-78238-169-3. Retrieved 2024-11-10.
^ ^a ^b Havemann, Paul (2003-08-08). "Denial, Modernity and Exclusion: Indigenous Placelessness in Australia" [2005] MqLawJl 4; (2005) 5 Maquarie Law Journal 57". Australasian Legal Information Institute (AustLII). Retrieved 2024-11-10.
^ Davidson, Helen (September 22, 2014). "John Howard: there was no genocide against Indigenous Australians". the Guardian. Retrieved November 10, 2024.
^ Tatz, Colin (1999). "Genocide in Australia". Journal of Genocide Research. 1 (3): 315–352. doi:10.1080/14623529908413964. ISSN 1462-3528.
^ Baldry, Hannah; McKeon, Ailsa; McDougall, Scott (2 November 2015). "Queensland's Frontier Killing Times – Facing Up To Genocide". QUT Law Review. 15 (1). doi:10.5204/qutlr.v15i1.583.
^
Ried, James (30 March 2016). "'Invaded' not settled: UNSW rewrites history". The New Daily. Archived from the original on 30 March 2023. Retrieved 2023-03-30.
- Graham, Chris (30 March 2016). "Australian university accused of 'rewriting history' over British invasion language". The Telegraph. Archived from the original on 30 March 2023. Retrieved 2023-03-30.
- Lemarchand, Rene (2011). Forgotten Genocides: Oblivion, Denial, and Memory. University of Pennsylvania Press. pp. 12, 88. doi:10.2307/j.ctt3fhnm9. ISBN 978-0-8122-2263-0. JSTOR j.ctt3fhnm9. S2CID 266296715. The colonial genocide perpetrated against Aborigines produced within the colonial society a deep and enduring ambiguity about the fate of the original Aborigines and the role of colonists in generating that fate. This ambiguity consisted of a deep-seated moral unease about what had occurred and a culture of denial that was expressed in numerous ways, but most obviously in the myth of inevitable extinction.
- Allam, Lorena; Evershed, Nick (2019-03-03). "The killing times: the massacres of Aboriginal people Australia must confront". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Archived from the original on 21 April 2023. Retrieved 2023-04-21.

Historical context

Hello all

I have added content to this section with reliable sources. I have added some historical background to make the following sections easier to understand for the average reader who knows little about Australian history. I have tried to write the section from a more neutral point of view. I have added several works to the works cited section.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 06:52, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Torres Strait Islander genocide

Hi Moxy and Aemilius Adolphin – you've both recently added content to this article stating or implying that a genocide was carried out on Torres Strait Islanders. Can I ask what the basis is for this is, as I can't immediately find any evidence of any historians making this argument and my understanding is that the Torres Strait Islands were a lot more "protected" or stable than other parts of Queensland. I T B F 📢 07:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there

I actually tried to word stuff not to imply this because I have yet to see a single citation of a reliable source that states that acts of genocide were committed against Torres Strait Islanders. The problem I have is that the article title is "Genocide of Indigenous Australians" and in Australia Indigenous refers to both Aboriginal Australians and and Torres Strait Islanders. I added a small paragraph about Torres Strait Islanders for the benefit of overseas readers and to make it clear that they are a different people with a very different experience of colonisation. Unless someone can come up with reliable evidence of genocide against them I think the article should be renamed Genocide of Aboriginal Australians. But this article is still under development and I think we need time for people to add content on this issue. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 07:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

PS: Given that the Torres Strait Islands were adminstered by Queensland for a long time I wouldn't be surprised if there is some literature arguing that acts of genocide occurred. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 08:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tasmania and Queensland

Hello all

I have changed the heading "Black War" to "Tasmania". The Black War (1825-1832) was only one period in the colonisation of Tasmania. Most historians who argue that a genocide occurred in Tasmania are referring to the whole period from 1803 to 1871. I have also changed "Queensland Aboriginal Genocide" to "Queensland" as the words "Aboriginal genocide" are implied by the title of the article.

Happy to discuss

Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Acts of genocide

Hello all

I have added some definitions to this section to make the content easier to understand. I have removed some unsourced content and have reworded some content so that it more accurately reflects the cited sources. I have removed some content on "economic genocide" because the sources do not use the term. I have moved some of this content to the cultural genocide point.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:19, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scholarly debate

Hello all

I have further expanded this section to clarify the main points of debate. I have reworded some content to better reflect the content of the cited sources.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

Hello all

I have expanded the lead so that it better summarises the article and reflects the new content.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:45, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[f973-1] Attwood, Bain (2001). "The Stolen Generations and genocide: Robert Manne's". Aboriginal History. 25. ANU Press: 163–172. ISSN 0314-8769. JSTOR 45135477. Retrieved November 10, 2024.

[u516-2] Tatz, Colin. "Genocide in Australia". The Koori History Project. Retrieved 2024-11-10.

[v371-3] Maynard, Professor John (January 26, 1988). "Genocide in Australia". The Australian Museum. Retrieved November 10, 2024.

[l869-4] Ryan, Lyndall (May 4, 2023). "Frontier Massacres in Australia, 1788–1928". The Cambridge World History of Genocide. Cambridge University Press. p. 461–480. doi:10.1017/9781108765480.020. ISBN 978-1-108-76548-0.

[e948-5] "Killing Without Murder: Aboriginal Assimilation Policy as Genocide". I-Portal: Indigenous Studies Portal. p. 4. Retrieved 2024-11-10. PDF

[6] Tatz, C. (2001). Confronting Australian Genocide. Aboriginal History, 25, 16–36.

[x233-7] "The truth about white Australia: The genocide few talk about". CGTN. 2021-09-17. Retrieved 2024-11-10.

[i713-8] Dirk Moses, A. (2003). "Genocide and Holocaust Consciousness in Australia". History Compass. 1 (1). doi:10.1111/1478-0542.028. ISSN 1478-0542.

[s089-9] Moses, A.D. (2004). Genocide and Settler Society: Frontier Violence and Stolen Indigenous Children in Australian History. War and Genocide. Berghahn Books. pp. 15, 16. ISBN 978-1-78238-169-3. Retrieved 2024-11-10.

[t904-10] Havemann, Paul (2003-08-08). "Denial, Modernity and Exclusion: Indigenous Placelessness in Australia" [2005] MqLawJl 4; (2005) 5 Maquarie Law Journal 57". Australasian Legal Information Institute (AustLII). Retrieved 2024-11-10.

[k596-11] Davidson, Helen (September 22, 2014). "John Howard: there was no genocide against Indigenous Australians". the Guardian. Retrieved November 10, 2024.

[w765-12] Tatz, Colin (1999). "Genocide in Australia". Journal of Genocide Research. 1 (3): 315–352. doi:10.1080/14623529908413964. ISSN 1462-3528.

[13] Baldry, Hannah; McKeon, Ailsa; McDougall, Scott (2 November 2015). "Queensland's Frontier Killing Times – Facing Up To Genocide". QUT Law Review. 15 (1). doi:10.5204/qutlr.v15i1.583.

[14] Ried, James (30 March 2016). "'Invaded' not settled: UNSW rewrites history". The New Daily. Archived from the original on 30 March 2023. Retrieved 2023-03-30.
Graham, Chris (30 March 2016). "Australian university accused of 'rewriting history' over British invasion language". The Telegraph. Archived from the original on 30 March 2023. Retrieved 2023-03-30.

Lemarchand, Rene (2011). Forgotten Genocides: Oblivion, Denial, and Memory. University of Pennsylvania Press. pp. 12, 88. doi:10.2307/j.ctt3fhnm9. ISBN 978-0-8122-2263-0. JSTOR j.ctt3fhnm9. S2CID 266296715. The colonial genocide perpetrated against Aborigines produced within the colonial society a deep and enduring ambiguity about the fate of the original Aborigines and the role of colonists in generating that fate. This ambiguity consisted of a deep-seated moral unease about what had occurred and a culture of denial that was expressed in numerous ways, but most obviously in the myth of inevitable extinction.

Allam, Lorena; Evershed, Nick (2019-03-03). "The killing times: the massacres of Aboriginal people Australia must confront". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Archived from the original on 21 April 2023. Retrieved 2023-04-21.

[15] Graham, Chris (30 March 2016). "Australian university accused of 'rewriting history' over British invasion language". The Telegraph. Archived from the original on 30 March 2023. Retrieved 2023-03-30.

[16] Lemarchand, Rene (2011). Forgotten Genocides: Oblivion, Denial, and Memory. University of Pennsylvania Press. pp. 12, 88. doi:10.2307/j.ctt3fhnm9. ISBN 978-0-8122-2263-0. JSTOR j.ctt3fhnm9. S2CID 266296715. The colonial genocide perpetrated against Aborigines produced within the colonial society a deep and enduring ambiguity about the fate of the original Aborigines and the role of colonists in generating that fate. This ambiguity consisted of a deep-seated moral unease about what had occurred and a culture of denial that was expressed in numerous ways, but most obviously in the myth of inevitable extinction.

[17] Allam, Lorena; Evershed, Nick (2019-03-03). "The killing times: the massacres of Aboriginal people Australia must confront". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Archived from the original on 21 April 2023. Retrieved 2023-04-21.

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