Talk:Helmuth Nyborg

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Far-right

This edit added noteworthy information supported by reliable sources and should not have been reverted.[1][2][3] The IP that did so claimed that The www.information.dk source does not call Nyborg far-right, it only says that the far right has made use of Nyborg's research, and that Nyborg finds this unfortunate. Also on English Wikipedia, English language sources are preferred and This content is poorly sourced and probably violates WP:BLP; please don't edit war to re-add it, but:

Stram Kurs is unambiguously described as far-right in reliable sources, including the two added, and we have a source saying that Nyborg stood for election for them, so "far-right activist" in the lead is justified
English sources are only preferred when available and equal quality to non-English sources, which is not the case here
It is not a violation of the BLP policy to include noteworthy, reliably-sourced information in a biography of a public figure (such as someone who stands for political office), even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it (WP:WELLKNOWN)

Unless there are objections, I'll restore it. Courtesy ping @Throast:. – Joe (talk) 10:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if Stram Kurs is reliably described as a far-right party, the disputed content still appears to be original synthesis. This is a situation where source (A) says that Nyborg stood as a candidate for Stram Kurs, and source (B) says that Stram Kurs is a far-right political party. But for Wikipedia to call a living person a far-right activist, it seems it that should require a source directly describing him as one. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 11:04, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Absolute nonsense. Is there any doubt that Nyborg stood for Stram Kurs? No. Is there any doubt that Stram Kurs is far right? No. If someone stands for election on a far right political platform, are they far right? Yes. You could maybe debate 'activist' but I can't think of a better description for a political candidate that wasn't elected. – Joe (talk) 11:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about changing the lead to say, Helmuth Sørensen Nyborg (born 5 January 1937) is a Danish psychologist, former athlete, and politician who has stood as a candidate for the far-right party Stram Kurs? If the label "far right" must be included, that is a closer reflection of what the sources say. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 11:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fine by me. It also doesn't have to be in the first sentence, just not excluded. – Joe (talk) 12:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've adding the proposed wording at the end of the first paragraph. Although this wording is tolerable to me, I am still uncomfortable with using the label "far-right" in the absence of any sources that use it while discussing Nyborg. So if any others share my concerns about original synthesis I encourage them to comment here. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 14:22, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with IPv6. Deducing from these two sources alone that Nyborg can be universally described as a "far-right politician" is too big of a leap in my opinion, especially considering that we're talking about (potentially controversial) political affiliations of living people. Also, not a big fan of that essay since obviousness can be subjective. I've noticed that SYNTH is one of these policies that frequently gets brushed aside because editors find it inconvenient. The phrasing that's been agreed upon is a much better solution imo. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 15:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to this source he stood in the East Jutland (Folketing constituency) in the 2019 general election. He polled 1.51%. Several sources make clear that Nyborg supports the far-right policies of Stram Kurs including the article referenced on page but it seems 2A02 removed a second source documenting Nyborg's links to neo-Nazis and white nationalists including Greg Johnson; I will quote a relevant extract from the article:

Met with top people from the Alt-Right movement
In September 2018, Helmuth Nyborg appeared at the Scandza Forum in Copenhagen, where several international top people from the far-right milieu participated and gave presentations. A YouTube video showed that Helmuth Nyborg informed the assembly about his knowledge . Several people associated with the American Alt-Right movement, a so-called white nationalist branch of the extreme right, were also present at the gathering. During the Scandza Forum, there was a speech from the American Greg Johnson, a well-known anti-Semite and supporter of white nationalism. Greg Johnson publishes his views on the website counter-currents.com, where he is managing editor. Here he argues, among other things, that the chief responsible for the extermination of Jews during the Second World War, Adolf Hitler, simply acted in "self-defence" against the aggressions of the Jews.

From the same article, which mentions Nyborg attended another far-right conference in 2011:

When Helmuth Nyborg appeared at the Scandza Forum, it was not the first time he spoke to representatives from the most extreme part of the right wing. In 2011, he spoke at a two-day seminar organized by the Danish Society for Free Historical Research. Today, the company is history, but among other things, it set out to deny the Holocaust.

It seems rather odd none of this has been previously mentioned on Nyborg's Wikipedia article. It is well documented he was a candidate for a far-right party in 2019 and he occasionally attends conferences with white nationalists and neo-Nazis yet until today none of this was mentioned or even discussed. Instead the article came across as whitewashed and just said he was a scientist (albeit with controversial views on IQ) who did some Olympic rowing. No mention he is a far-right ideologue who speaks alongside neo-Nazis and stood for the most extreme right wing party in Denmark. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 15:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another source [4] "In 2017 he spoke to the white nationalist American Renaissance conference". So Nyborg has also attended American Renaissance events. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 15:33, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another source: Nyborg spoke at a far-right Traditional Britain Group conference in 2019. I also found a source on his attendance to the 2011 conference by the SPLC - there is a photo with Hyborg sitting next to ex-KKK leader David Duke... an extract from the article:

A private seminar on religion and politics entitled “Revolt Against Civilization” brought together some of the leading lights of U.S. and European white nationalism and anti-Semitism. Hosted by Christian Lindtner (far right) of the Danish Society for Historical Research, the seminar was broadcast in America by Connecticut-based Voice of Reason (VOR) Radio, which specializes in racist materials. Those attending included (from left) Tomislav Sunic, a Croatian author and frequent guest speaker at American extremist events; Alexander Jacob, whose academic work focuses on a return to “European ideals” to combat Jewish intellectualism; David Duke, the U.S. neo-Nazi and former Klan leader who won a majority of the white vote in his 1991 bid to become Louisiana’s governor; Helmuth Nyborg, a Danish psychology professor; and Kevin MacDonald, a psychology professor at California State University, Long Beach, who wrote a trilogy of books that attack Jews and are revered by neo-Nazis. VOR identified all participants as “doctors,” and they may all be. But Duke “earned” his doctorate at an anti-Semitic Ukrainian institution that’s been described as a “diploma mill” by the State Department. Despite his own heated attacks on Martin Luther King Jr. as a plagiarist, Duke is known for having cribbed large portions of a book from MacDonald’s trilogy, including 232 footnotes that exactly or nearly match MacDonald’s.

51.6.193.169 (talk) 15:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ps, I have found at least once source describing Nyborg as "radical right". Seems accurate considering his repeated attendance at far-right gatherings and his controversial writings on eugenics and immigration:

Last May, British journalist and conservative commentator Toby Young attended what he called a “secretive” conference on intelligence and genetics, the London Conference on Intelligence. Those associated with the conference include Richard Lynn, a white nationalist who argued for a self-conscious effort to “phase out inferior cultures,” and Helmuth Nyborg, a Danish radical right figure who has lamented the effect of immigration from the Middle East on Denmark’s gene pool.

51.6.193.169 (talk) 15:57, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some final stuff I found:

Nyborg wrote a few articles in 2012-2014 for the white nationalist site VDARE. source
Arktos the far-right publisher recently published A Tribute to Helmuth Nyborg (paperback) on 7 Jun. 2024. source. Among articles in this volume are by white supremacists including Emil Kirkegaard. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 16:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

51.6.193.169, I think you've just given away who you are. (The geolocation is another clue.) It's been a few years since you last evaded your ban here, but I'm familiar with your antics at RationalWiki. I'm waiting for you to call Emil Kirkegaard a "child-rape activist" next. 2A02:FE1:7191:F500:1D68:AEEA:EBA5:D751 (talk) 17:17, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect. I work as a researcher for The Guardian. A lot of my research is on far-right figures and I hardly edit this website. I am guessing you are another banned sock-puppet associated with the OpenPsych journal. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 17:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, there are plenty of mainstream sources calling Kirkegaard a "white supremacist" which also document his abhorrent views on child pornography. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 18:02, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of these sources can be used in the article body. I'm not sure if they are enough to support the "far-right activist" descriptor in the lead sentence. MOS:ROLEBIO says that the lead sentence should describe the person as they are commonly described by reliable sources. IP, what do you say about this edit that IPv6 made earlier? Isn't that a good compromise? Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 20:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that Nyborg is attending another major far-right conference and there is expected to be media coverage about this. I have no issue with what has been put there for now. A wait and see position would be best going forwards until the new sourcing has been published. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 23:51, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't imagine that would change things very much. What we could do is add something like, Nyborg has frequently attended/spoken at far-right conferences and stood as a candidate for the far-right party Stram Kurs to the first paragraph. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 09:37, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are several sources I found that say he is an advocate of scientific racism [5], [6], [7], this is more than enough to put into the lead. 51.6.193.169 (talk) 09:29, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now, remember that Wikipedia articles should be written from the bottom up, i.e. things that aren't already covered in the article body shouldn't appear in the lead section. The lead is supposed to be a summary of the article, see MOS:LEAD. Please make sure that everything you want to include in the lead is covered proportionally in the body. Also, I don't appreciate you editing the lead while this issue is still under active discussion. You should wait until there is a consensus. Throast ^{{{ping}} me!} (talk | contribs) 09:42, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just chiming in here to note that the article as it stands is indeed written from the bottom up, since there is a section on his right-wing activities. The mention of right-wing in the lead is DUE per reliable sources, as Joe and the 51 IP have argued. Generalrelative (talk) 16:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a strong opinion at this stage about whether the label "far-right" is well sourced or not, but like Throast above, I object to it being added without any effort to reach a consensus here. Initially, the newest attempt to restore this phrasing in the first sentence was made without commenting in this discussion at all. I'll ask Throast to give his opinion about it again, and then maybe we can reach a consensus. 84.212.187.87 (talk) 16:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Throast has said that he still thinks this label should not be included in the first sentence. [8] Not including it in the first sentence also is my preference, and the discussion previously agreed on the compromise I proposed here, so there is still no consensus to include it in the first sentence. I'm soon going to follow Throast's advice in the linked comment, and remove it again. I strongly recommend reading his comment if you haven't already. WP:BLP policy is clear that material like this should not continue to be restored unless there is a positive consensus for it. Also note:

First, this article has already been posted at the Fringe Theories Noticeboard, which is what brought it to Throast and Joe Roe's attention. [9] Raising it at a noticeboard a second time after the first noticeboard thread did not produce a consensus for the change, as you suggested to do in your most recent edit summary, would be Forum shopping.
Second, you had never previously edited this article, or its talk page, before your edits re-adding this material in the first sentence. You followed me to this article only to revert me and restore disputed BLP material. This is similar to what you were recently warned for in your user talk, [10] as well as the attention you've received at external sites. If even the comment about your reverts from Throast isn't enough for you to change your approach, this is getting close to WP:IDHT behavior. I would say this in your user talk instead of here, but you removed the warning there from Biohistorian15 so fast that it seems unlikely you read it.

Please acknowledge what several people are saying about your own behavior being the main issue here, not someone else's, and address that issue. 84.212.187.87 (talk) 04:10, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to take your conduct concerns to WP:ANI. Generalrelative (talk) 09:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we should waste many more bytes on calling someone a "far-right politician" vs a "politician for a far-right party". His views are far-right, and the political party is too. Polygnotus (talk) 16:34, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Far-right is well sourced and covered in the main article so no problem with citing in the lead. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:55, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]