Talk:Hemant Karkare

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Source[edit]

Here's a good article with some biographical details: [1] Rklawton (talk) 14:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pov-Push[edit]

Someone with bad grammar and an agenda had linked the murder to the Indian Army! I have reverted those edits since no sources were shown. And the comments were absurd. TheBlueKnight (talk) 06:30, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Conflicting press reports[edit]

A press report from the 28th is cited for the claim that Hemant Karkare died of three gunshot wounds while in action at the Taj. A later, more detailed, eyewitness account is cited for the claim that he died en route to aid Sadanand Date at the Cama and Albless Hospital for women and children. I suspect the earlier report may have conflated details of Sandeep Unnikrishnan being killed in the actions at the Taj, with reports of Karkare's death. In either case, we should obtain further confirmation from reliable sources. Alastair Haines (talk) 00:10, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The CNN Asia report, with the same date as the eyewitness account, confirms that account, while agreeing about the three lethal gunshot wounds. Alastair Haines (talk) 00:20, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
He dies outside the Cama hospital itself. He never reached the Taj. His bodies and those of 2 others were thrown out on the street. The cop car was then hijacked by the terrorists and then they fired at civilians outside the Metro Cineplex which is fairly close to Cama Hospital. TheBlueKnight (talk) 05:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Blue Knight. A man doing the right things and prevented by hostile action, that's war alright. I'm picking up the picture more clearly now. Thanks for your work at this page. Alastair Haines (talk) 09:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, no problem. I was less than 2 kms away then. It's the least I can do. TheBlueKnight (talk) 14:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of the merge proposal was no consensus to merge. -- Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 21:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since Karkare was involved with more than one incident (29 September 2008 western India bombings and 2008 Mumbai attacks), we need an article for him. His role in both incidents is noteworthy. --Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 14:02, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The editor adding the merge proposal gave the reason WP:NOTMEMORIAL but this article doesn't look like a "memorial" to me. This person might have gained popularity due to the terrorist incidents, but he had/has a separate notability (as required by WP:BIO) as he was the chief of ATS. This is not a WP:BLP1E. –Capricorn42 (talk) 14:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • OPPOSE I am gainst merging this article--Suyogtalk to me! 14:55, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The question is, does this individual pass WP:BIO. If you want to keep the article, you need to establish he does, this isn't a vote. The suggestion is specifically not to merge with Casualties of the 2008 Mumbai attacks but with Mumbai Anti-Terrorist Squad (which is stubby). The question is thus not, does Karkare have any notability outside of his death in the Mumbai attacks, but does he have any notability outside that of the collective notability of Mumbai Anti-Terrorist Squad. I am not saying he doesn't, i am saying that if he does, you need to establish the fact. I argue that if we remove th "death" section, there is nothing here that would justify a standalone article. If we begin doing articles on any member of any police force or swat unit who happens to be mentioned in the daily press, we will end up with literally thousands of "cop bio" articles. This isn't encyclopedic. --dab (𒁳) 16:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't disagree with your thesis or that the focus of the article is exclusively on post-death news articles as references. However, Karkare's notability is independent of the Mumabi Anti-terrorist Squad because of the controversies that surrounded the arrests following the malgaon bombing and because his death during the terrorist attacks is noteworthy in and of by itself. Both these are adequately (though neither elegantly nor cohesively) brought out in the article itself. While the referencing could be a lot better, I think it does establish independent notability for this individual. --Regent's Park (Boating Lake) 16:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Option of merging in to Mumbai Terrorist squad is also not a option because he was in that post for brief period (Compared to previous Chief) So it will be a unjust to merger Karkare's article in to Mumbai Anti Terrorist Squad( Unjust for Mumbai Anti Terrorist Squad)--Suyogtalk to me! 16:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hemant Karkare has been mentioned in the media several times, even before the Mumbai attacks[2](see the entries before November), more so in the local newspapers. He might not have done any notable work outside police or anti-terrorism but he was the chief of ATS. Besides, it doesn't look right to merge a biographical article asserting notability into an article about an agency. The thread about this at WT:BIO will hopefully reach consensus. Best, –Capricorn42 (talk) 22:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think Karkare's involvement (in his official capacity) with both the Malegaon and Mumbai attacks makes him notable enough for a biographical article. Note that his death was widely reported because he was one of the most notable person killed in the Mumbai attacks, not just another innocent bystander/victim. That said, the state of this article is shameful! I hope editors who feel strongly about the issue would devote more time writing a well-sourced and well-written article, instead of simply being satisfied that it is "kept". I'll do a bit of copyediting and clean up to get the ball rolling. Abecedare (talk) 07:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Karkare received coverage in reputable media sources even before 26/11. One can refer to this. The links are enough both for establishing notability as well as rewriting certain portion of the article. Thanks. Shovon (talk) 07:41, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Karkare was very well known before the Mumbai attacks and in his own right, not just as a figurehead of the ATS. There are many much less notable people who have biographies on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rosabibi (talk • contribs) 19:25, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I nomininate this sentence for removal[edit]

" The operation was difficult as it was dark and the terrorists had AK-47s, other automatic weapons, hand grenades, a surprise element on their side and were well trained"

It stinks to high heaven of after the event excuse making. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.203.122.157 (talk) 08:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mera jutha hai japani —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.210.129 (talk) 19:51, 21 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy section[edit]

Can u pls have a look at the latest developments at Hemant Karkare - i strongly feel they are WP:FRINGE; more so sources furnished are twocircles.net, hardnewsmedia.com etc. Just thought you would be the ideal guy for this. Arjuncodename024 07:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted those edits for the time being. --RegentsPark (talk) 17:47, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hello I noticed you just removed an entire section from the Hemant Karkare page. It's a very hot and debatable top I agree, but labeling it as WP:FRINGE is ridiculous! Deleting rather than editing is not going to help. Arjun appears to have a WP:SPA and has been constantly deleting sections from the Hemant Karkare page, coming up with some new weird reason each time.
As for the sources, HardNewsMedia is the South Asian partner of Le Monde diplomatique, Paris, France.
TwoCircles.net - a very respectable news website based in USA.
IbnLive - CNN-IBN is a partnership between Global Broadcast News (GBN), a Network18 Company, and Turner International (Turner) in India. If you like I can provide more sources! SuchiBhasin (talk) 18:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My reason for deleting the content was not because of the sources. Rather, the material takes a few news stories (the IBN ones are more like opinions and the twocircles is an interview) and then constructs a 'controversy' section by stringing these together. That is both WP:SYNTH as well as WP:UNDUE. I don't know much about the topic itself but, if the death of Mr. Karkare is considered controversial, then there must be more reliable sources (articles in magazines or leading newspapers) that make the same points. I suggest focusing on those sources. --RegentsPark (talk) 18:20, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
--------------------Above content is a copy-paste from User talk:RegentsPark--------------------

Leading publications like Economic Times and numerous RTI applications in Mumbai have questioned the death of Mr. Karkare. Kindly do not delete entire sections- if you have an issue, point it out where the synthesis is going wrong.- Cool hindu (talk) 19:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well yes it is controversial specially because of the missing bullet proof jacket and the findings that he wasn't killed by the terrorists. He had also received death threats a few days before his death. I see Cool hindu has reverted your edit. Don't know what make of it. If you will leave it like this for sometime I will try improving the piece. Its difficult because every time I log in, I find it gone! Also if there is a problem just point it out, flag it, removing the entire section doesn't really help. For the time being I will work on the sources. --SuchiBhasin (talk) 04:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The missing jacket issue and questions about his death are by no means fringe. They were widely discussed in the media and came from highly respected sources. SM Mushrif was an ex IG of police, the man who caught Telgi in the 30,000cr stamp paper scam. The jacket issue was raised by Kavitha Karkare, wife of the slain Hemant Karkare. Section blanking these each time they are posted are POV edits, if not pure vandalism.NMKuttiady (talk) 06:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(od) If there is a controversy surrounding his death, then we should include it. However, do note that currently the "controversies" section is half the article (more than half excluding the lead). The issues as always are (1) are we stringing together a bunch of news reports and using that to make a controversy salient, and (2) are we overstating a viewpoint that is fringe or marginal. Like I said, I don't know much about this but when we have excessive text on something that is self-reported as being "largely ignored by the Indian News Media", or text of the form a stunning conclusion which was largely ignored by the Indian Media was that according to ballistic experts Hemant Karkare was not gunned down by Pakistani terrorist Kasab and his accomplice that is attributed to a report in something other than a mainstream newspaper, then, with dues apologies to all of you, I'm sorry to say that this looks like a fringe issue that is being synthesized into something that is not accepted in the mainstream. However you choose to cut it. I suggest that the sourcing be fixed, the length of the controversies section be greatly reduced, and the language used in the section be made neutral. If this is not done, and since the onus for sourcing is on the person adding the material, I will remove the entire section and protect the page until an acceptable version is written. Regards. --RegentsPark (talk) 19:02, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is there some thumb rule at WP that in a biography, controversy section has to be 1/10 or so of the main article? Anyway, this NY Times article, should make you realise why the death of Mr. Karkare is so controversial. This article describes what Mr. Karkare as the Anti-Terror Squad chief, was investigating and what was the reaction. It was for the first time in India that terrorism was being link with the India's majority community, by an governmental investigative body. Khan.found (talk) 08:39, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the NY Times article reference. However, that article says nothing about bullet proof vests or about the manner of his death. About length: WP:UNDUE states It is important to clarify that articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more widely held views; generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. At present, from reading the wikipedia article, it would appear that there is a majority held viewpoint that Mr. Karkare was killed by someone other than the Mumbai terrorists (in fact, the current article appears to state that this is a certainty). All this may indeed be the case, but the current set of sources don't merit either the weight or the conclusion. Since this situation is untenable for an encyclopedia, I am removing the section and protecting the article. Please thrash out the text of this section on the talk page and, once there is a reasonable version of the controversies surrounding his death, that can be added back into the article. --RegentsPark (talk) 10:46, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The bullet proof vest controversy is all over. Covered by all mainstream newspapers, News Channels, agencies etc etc. You need to do better research on the topic before you come to edit any page. WP rules cant be generalised on all topics. So if you dont know the topic you should not edit it. Isnt there any WP rule on this? If not, WP badly needs it. Imagine, Tim Sebastian of BBC covering FIFA. Khan.found (talk) 11:46, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Controversies and protection[edit]

I have removed the controversies section and protected the article. Please thrash out the text of the controversies section on the talk page and, once there is consensus on that text, we can restore it. Regards. --RegentsPark (talk) 10:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. A regent just put some reagent to clear all the controversy. Now there is no controversy (Ostrich burying its head in the sand!). And if ever there is any controversy we know how to clean it! This is WP's editor's gift to Justice Tahaliyani hearing the Mumbai Attack case, as after months of hearing and hearing he could not find out "Who Killed Karkare?", but a discussion on a WP talk page for a few days seems to have! Khan.found (talk) 11:39, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just found that there is term for whats happening here. Its called Meatpuppetry —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khan.found (talk • contribs) 11:54, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Khan.found, you are welcome to thrash out a consensual controversy section on the talk page. If you're willing to work with other editors, I'm sure the Ostrich will pull its head out of the sand. --RegentsPark (talk) 12:00, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RegentsPark I am sure you had WP's best interests in mind, but how can we discuss, arrive at a consensus and improve if editors/deletors just come and remove the entire section. And that has been happening a lot on this page. How can we arrive at a consensus if one group of people refuse to acknowledge facts and keep calling it fringe? I tried discussing this Arjun and Asher, two editors who had been deleting this section, mostly its done by an IP, all I got was some vague fringe remarks from the former and nothing from the latter --SuchiBhasin (talk) 12:20, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, whatever sockpuppetry has appeard here, I was one of the main contributor of the "controversies" section and ,as a regular WP user, I would like to finish the work of sizing it to a more standard proportion, and put it in a form more suited to WP standards. And I see no reason to block an article just because another IP coming from indef user Hkelkar has showned up again. The controversy is real in India about the Karkare affair. Thanks. - TwoHorned User_talk:TwoHorned 12:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Before any rash decisions are made, I should point out that it was User:TwoHorned who added the part about the Israelis fomenting religious riots in India [3][4](and then edit-warring in order to keep it in). the absurd and conspiratorial language suggests bad faith editing. Furthermore, some of his sources are highly dubious, like this one, from a pro-Islamist website masquerading as a non-partisan news source (compare what they say about Zakir Naik[5], to what more reliable sources say about him [6][7]).117.194.193.101 (talk) 17:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Furthermore, here is a sample of the extremely conspiratorial rhetoric found in TwoHorned's "Flagship source", a book by an Islamist sympathizer titled "Who Killed Karkare?" Can a book containing this type of militant rhetoric be considered a WP:RS?

[8]

[9]

[10].117.194.193.101 (talk) 17:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So an IP address is more reliable than a former IG Police? 91.73.159.97 (talk) 11:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

News portals are already covering Hindutva terror stories- or some Wikipedians have their own agenda? [11] Cool hindu (talk) 06:28, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unprotected[edit]

I've unprotected the article. Hopefully everyone has calmed down a bit. Any addition of a 'controversy' section that is not properly discussed on the talk page and has not been shown to be consensual and/or contains fringe conspiracy material will be reverted and the editor(s) subject to being blocked. Regards. --RegentsPark (talk) 15:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From RegentsPark: //editor(s) subject to being blocked// - what is this: your personal preserve? Cool hindu (talk) 18:52, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please AGF on wikipedia. RegentsPark is an administrator. NMKuttiady (talk) 19:31, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do AGF, hence request RegentsPark to himself add in the following section, which is now recognized even by leading journalists like Vir Sanghvi: [12]

Now it transpires that even Karkare could have been saved. People have always wondered how the bullets penetrated the bullet-proof jacket he was wearing. The Bombay Police responded by saying that a) he was shot in the neck so the jacket was no protection, b) that the jacket was perfectly good but c) the file pertaining to its purchase had been lost and d) even the jacket itself had miraculously vanished.

Searching "karkare conspiracy" on Google gives 11,100 results :)- is that AGF ? Cool hindu (talk) 05:56, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand this correctly, there is a controversy about the quality of the bullet-proof vest that was issued to Mr. Karkare. If there is a consensus to add that, I'll go ahead and do it. --RegentsPark (talk) 12:16, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes thats a major controversy widely discussed in news media.NMKuttiady (talk) 07:37, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(od) I googled "Vir Sanghvi Hemant Karkare" and found this, which appears to be a blog. Based on this blog, I can envisage a sentence of the sort "In an investigation, Headline Today, an Indian news agency, found that a substandard bullet proof jacket had been issued to Mr. Karkare." being added to the Death section. Is there a reliable source that establishes that Headline Today found this? Also, are there other independent agencies that have assessed the Headline Today investigation? Could others weigh in here as well please? --RegentsPark (talk) 15:15, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See this Google cache- this page did appear in the Hindustan Times

@RegentsPark -Headlines Today is of India Today group and owns Aaj Tak. Cool hindu (talk) 17:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I guess that makes Headlines Today a reasonable source. Do we have an original article that reports the investigation? The Hindustan Times piece above is also an opinion piece (though I did do some research and apparently Mr. Sanghvi is a well respected columnist but a news report would be a better bet). Also, there must be other columns/news reports that report the existence of the substandard bullet proof vest? --RegentsPark (talk) 00:20, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
http://news.google.com/archivesearch?pz=1&cf=all&ned=in&hl=en&q=bullet+proof+vest+karkare&cf=all - NMKuttiady (talk) 06:21, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am only a beginner at WP, I would humbly request Regents Park to point us to other WP admins at the same level as him (preferably from India) so that we can have a better discussion here and come to an understanding of what constitutes a credible and respected reference/source. Cool hindu (talk) 17:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You don't really need an admin from India. All you need is reliable sources that verify any claims and clearly indicate that the subject is not fringe. Based on your sources, I tend to agree that the matter of the bullet proof vest is not fringe and can see that it should be added to the article. But, we need to source any statements appropriately. Anyway, I'll add the above sentence to the article, appropriately tagged, and let's see if the sources are forthcoming. --RegentsPark (talk) 01:06, 9 July 2010 (UTC) (Addendum. I just noticed the link provided by nmkuttiady and have incorporated the essence into the text.--RegentsPark (talk) 01:22, 9 July 2010 (UTC)_[reply]

I have spelled and formatted. --DescriberOne (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC).[reply]

Hemant Karkare[edit]

Hemant Karkare become famous after Maharashtra ATS which he was headin, accused and arrested people belonging to Hindu radical associations for terrorism. HE linked them to Malagaon Blasts. On 12th December 2010 i.e. 2 years after his death it has become public that he was friend of Anti Hindu Congress leader Digvijay Singh. Digvijay Singh has become bitter critic of all Hindus after losing his CM position to BJP in 2003. HE even termed BJP leaders as Hindu. This proves Karkare's motives in Malagaon Blast investigation. The references provided are for Karkare's friendship to Digvijay Singh and Digvijay's hate towards Hindus.

Regarding his failure whole world knows that in Mumbai attacks more than 200 people died and Taj Hotel alone lost more than USD 200 million worth of goods. As head of ATS his prime responsibility is to protect Maharashtra from terrorist attacks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mghori (talk • contribs) 09:11, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pls cite sources ( "whole world knows" is not enough for wikipedia ) that specify :
  • Karkare's rise to fame was after any particular incident ( Like any news article/obituary anything that say something like "Karkare rose to fame after he caught XYZ".)
  • Karkare had other motives for arresting Malegaon blast accused
  • Karkare failed to protect Mumbai. ( Any news article/oped anything relevant as a reliable source saying : " Karkare failed in his duty to protect Mumbai" or anything similar. )
Digvijay Singh, Congress Party and their attitudes and policies are not subject of this article. Anything related to him should go in Digvijay Singh,Indian National Congress etc if relevant as per the rules of Wiki.NMKuttiady (talk) 10:13, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Karkare was a fool to go and fight Terrorist taking few officers. It is like a football coach going to the field with the players. What he achieved ? Did he kill any terrorist? why is he revered? User:sameerpawar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.96.232 (talk) 18:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]


What you have here , Mghori is called personal opinions and original research. Simply adding a ref tag does not make it a reference. Your reference has to actually say the same thing that you have written nameley:
  • Hemant Karkare was a close friend of Digvijay sSingh
  • Digvijay Sing is anti-hindu
  • that he became famous only after the Malegaon blast.
  • that he failed to "do his duty".

YOu are making inferences , not providing references. Anyway you have violated the three revert rule and will be taking the incident up with the admins. --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 10:39, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Heres the link to the 3RR noticeboard, for the benefit of everyone else:[13] --Deepak D'Souza (talk) 11:16, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dalit voice cannot be ignored,it is influencing people,one guy has put up sources and given proof that writings of dalit voice were responsible for 2010 kashmir violence that nearly led to separation of kashmir from india,dalit voice must be banned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.201.34.142 (talk) 09:08, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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I nominate to remove this sentence which shows bias[edit]

The police arrested Muslims alone for these `Malegaon blasts', despite the fact that the victims were all Muslims and the bicycles on which the bombs were placed bore Hindu names. Knaig (talk) 09:29, 19 April 2019 (UTC) This sentence shows heavy bias. Do you expect terrorists to always sign their own names when they blast bombs? Or the idea that muslims attacking muslims is unheard of? It appears the author is trying to make the case that it was a highly unjust action to arrest muslims for this act.[reply]

Conspiracy theory?[edit]

Contested statement in the lead: "However it is not known who exactly killed him as there is no conclusive evidence."

In support of this claim, an archived version of a news article[[14]] has been cited. However the article seems to be highly disputed and erroneous. No any other mainstream news source supports the veracity of the statement of the lead. The arguments of Kasab or his lawyers cannot be presented as facts in the lead. The editor of the article is just reiterating the claims of Ajmal Kasab's lawyer while it erroneously attributes the claims to the court.

Here are some other sources that suggest the statement "there's no conclusive evidence..." belongs to Ajmal Kasab and his lawyer.[[15]][[16]]


And here are some sources that state that the court rejected conspiracy theories that had claimed Karkare was not gunned down by terrorists, and they also seem to suggest that according to the court he was killed by the terrorists who attacked Mumbai.[[17]][[18]] Stormbird (talk) 17:25, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:40, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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