Talk:Ichigo Kurosaki/Archive 1

Spoiler?

Does part of this page warrant a {{spoiler}} warning? Since I'm not familiar with the series, I have no clue. --Mairi 04:55, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

tagged with spoiler now.--Mitsukai 18:20, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Ichigo's Sword

When he was transformed into a Shinigami by Rukia, he was using Rukia's power to become a shinigami, but he still manifested his OWN SWORD. Meaning that Zangetsu was already in his sealed form. Many people state that "We've never seen Ichigo's sealed form. The one he carried in the beginning was Rukia's blade, and when he transformed into a Shinigami, it was already in Shikai" or some randomness like that. Untrue. As such, I am reverting the edits by 138.88.27.207. -- Hobbeslover 03:06, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if you look at the crossgaurd, you see that it is the same as Rukia's. It was not Zangetsu. --MoChan

Or, you know, it could just be that it was a larger form of the normal crossguard that almost everyone has... speculation. --tjstrf 16:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, look at it closely. The same EXACT design, and nobody else has it. Normal no-name shinigami usually just have an oval for a crossguard, but this is rectangle with a design. It is exactly like Rukia's. --MoChan

It's clearly in appearance Sode no Shirayuki, yes, as all zanpakutou have unique tsuba... however, it's also unusually large, therefore indicating that it IS Ichigo's own powers being used and not just borrowed from Rukia... So one might say that effectively Ichigo is channeling his own powers through or by means of the borrowed powers from Rukia, and so the zanpakutou is, as a friend of mine once put it, "Zangetsu hiding in Sode no Shirayuki". --ACDragonMaster 02:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Or it could be really big because its HIS reiatsu fueling the sword and not Rukia's, but still is her zanpukto. Either one is plausible, but it is not Zangetsu, nor its unreleased state. MoChan 02:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

One theory I heard in the forums a while age was that when Ichigo faced the menos grande, he seemed to have unconscioulsy fired a getsuga tenshou or something similar. This would be the only time he would used Zangetsu's powers through Rukia's sword and could have been part of the reason why the sword started deforming right after. Anyway that doesn't matter. Facts seem to point to the fact that the huge sword is just a super-sized version of Rukia's and the only time any aspect of Zangetsu was manifested would be during the menos grande battle. Gdo01 02:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hm... don't have access to the anime of that ep, but in the manga, all I see is in chaper 49, Ichigo blocks the menos' attack, and then deflects it back at it. But it doesn't appear to be a shot made of his own energy. --ACDragonMaster 09:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

...well, yes, it IS his reiatsu/spiritual power fueling the sword. However, I seem to recall in his fight with his inner hollow, his hollow self claimed that both he and Zangetsu were Ichigo's power, thereby implying that a shinigami's zanpakutou is in fact a manifestation of that shinigami's powers. Zangetsu is Ichigo's power. Therefore, if Ichigo's power is fueling the zanpakutou that's in the form of Rukia's Sode no Shirayuki, that power is also Zangetsu, just not yet materialized in the form of Zangetsu. Also, when we first see Zangetsu's avatar in Ichigo's mind during Urahara's training of him, Ichigo asks who Zangetsu is, and Zangetsu replies "'Who am I?' What are you saying, I'm -----" with the name blacked out as Ichigo can't yet hear it. But this seems to imply that Zangetsu would have expected Ichigo to possibly know, therefore indicating that Zangetsu's always been there, just Ichigo was oblivious to his true identity. --ACDragonMaster 09:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

But, if you remember, that was after he already gained his OWN shinigami powers.And I made a mistake, it was his REIATSU powering the sword, not his own powers. MoChan 23:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Reiatsu is simply the term for the manifested force of a shinigami's power. "spirit presure" is the litteral translation of the kanji, it's the pressure or force of a shinigami's power. If his reiatsu was powering the sword, then his inherent spiritual energy was powering the sword. --ACDragonMaster 20:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

You guys are putting too much thought into this, mein gott. You should all have learned this by now: in a long series, early events only rarely will follow the rules of the universe as strictly as they are later defined. Barring an official statement from Kubo Tite, there is nothing to indicate that Ichigo's basic sword wasn't just a normal, standard zanpakuto. Maybe he hadn't thought of varying the tsuba yet. Maybe he was a genius who had the entire story planned years ahead of time and knew exactly what he was doing and included it as a subtle clue. Or maybe, just maybe, it's an unexplained plothole that we cannot make a conclusive statement on because it would be original research.

This is not a concludable issue, stop wasting time arguing over it.--tjstrf 00:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Though as far as that goes, possibly worth mentioning that in the title page for chapter 1, the sword in Ichigo's hand does NOT have the same tsuba as Rukia's/his in the first part of the story. It has some similar markings, but is still noticably different. --ACDragonMaster 21:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I just looked at the cover for volume one and compared it to Rukia's in chapter one, detail for detail. And anyway, since this topic can't be concluded, the sentence should be removed from the article.

Actually, Ichigo's sword still was the same size (and had the same hilt design) after he was operating on his own powers, using zangetsu. So the statement that his unreleased sword was giant holds true regardless of what the plothole means exactly. --tjstrf 23:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Where do you get that? I mean, his sword is cleaved apart and then Rukia's powers removed from him by Byakuya, and then when we next see him, using the sword under his own power, is when training with Urahara, at which point Zangetsu assumes the released state that it then has stayed in to date in the storyline. --ACDragonMaster 09:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Prior to his permanent assumption of the shikai form, he was using the remnants of his previous sword. At the time, he no longer possessed Rukia's shinigami powers, and was drawing on his own. (chapter 64, pages 12-13 shows this for the first time) Additionally, Zangetsu explicitly refered to the sword Ichigo was drawing directly prior to that scene as "me" (chapter 64, page 1). If Zangetsu calls Ichigo's giant unreleased sword "me", I believe that is sufficient canonical confirmation that, regardless of artistic plotholes, it was intended to be Ichigo's sword. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 10:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd guessed you were probably refering to that. The thing is, we never actually see the tsuba of the sword that Ichigo is drawing in Zangetsu's presence. As for the sword he carries on the later pages in that chapter, that's simply the leftover physical remnants, which is then cleaved to pieces by Urahara's Benihime until Ichigo actually calls on Zangetsu and releases his own zanpakutou to shikai. Which he then never seals. Those physical remnants seem rather like a leftover shell and nothing more at that point. --ACDragonMaster 10:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

As it seems this debate is in effect unconcluded, (and even if it was it would be original research) I feel that whole paragraph be removed or edited accordingly. MoChan 22:43, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not up on the manga (only been watching the anime), so forgive me if the two are different in this point, but during Ichigo's training to get his powers back for the soul society arc, Rukia's powers were gone from him at this point, yet the Sword hilt he draws is still the same as it was initially in the story. So, at this point it has to be his sword since it's his power driving it, meaning that the original unreleased one was also his since it's the same hilt. Derekloffin 19:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Note Urahara's speech when he was slicing up that sword. He stated something along the lines that the sword was only a shell, there was no reiatsu in it and that's why he was able to casually cut through it like butter. Gdo01 01:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

But he also says it's Ichigo's sword, and the comment is more about his lack of control of it's power rather than any question of who's sword it is. As well, when Ichigo finds the blade in the boxes, Zangetsu says 'you did well to find me', and 'Pull me out already!' Although you can't see the guard in the box, you can clearly see the handle is identical to his original sword, and nothing like the unsealed form. Now again, this is anime so maybe the manga is different, but it the anime it is quite clear that even his original sword was Zangetsu not Rukia's (unless perhaps Zangetsu was originally Rukia's blade, and she got a new one when she recovered). Derekloffin 20:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No Zangetsu was always Ichigo's blade, somewhere i remember reading that once zangetsu is unsealed it can't trun back, that huge zanpakuto that Ichigo had at first WAS zangetsu sealed!Ultimaterasengan 22:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It's an art error. --tjstrf talk 22:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

What is?Ultimaterasengan 01:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

If it was Rukia's Sode no Shirayuki, then Rukia would have been familiar with it, and would have at least referred to it once by that name after Ichigo took her powers. Rukia giving her powers to Ichigo was the spark that started his flame. If it was Rukia's zanpakuto, then eventually Ichigo would have lost all the spirit energy he had because he can't control it, and the zanpakuto would have become useless. Instead, Ichigo gradually becomes more powerful, suggesting that his zanpakuto was physically (er kinda) "formed" by Rukia's transferal of powers, and that his own powers started to develop as soon as he recieved her energy.

Also to note, Ichigo is constantly spilling out reiatsu, which affects his friends' powers. So if these powers were from Rukia, who gave them to Ichigo, and it was her zanpakuto puffed up because Ichigo doesn't suppress it, Chad and Inoue's powers would have stemmed from Sode No Shirayuki, which is ridiculous because they don't even have zanpakutos for themselves. Baiseru 6:01, 10 July 2007

Yes and there is something in Bleach that states that there is one zanpakuto per person or something pretty close to that, so there is no way that it could of been Sode no Shiraykui.Ultimaterasengan 16:55, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Just to add in one more, in the Anime (and perhaps in the manga as well) Renji clearly said, "you have to ask your sword its name." or something along that line in response to Ichigo asking him "Ask Rukia?" So if that was the Sode no Shirayuki, both of them would have recognized it, and even if Renji won't reveal it, Rukia probably would, as knowing the sword's name will grant you the initial release and therefore give Ichigo a chance to survive. Therefore, the sword couldn't have been the Sode no Shirayuki. Ichigo's broken sword had the same hilt and guard when he emerged from the hole, but by then Rukia's powers were completely gone.75.0.189.52 01:40, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Trivia etc.

172.156.23.181, where are you getting the info you put into pages? I don't mean just this one, but all Bleach pages. It seems totally out there, and I've never encountered much of it. For instance, Ichigo's name means literally 'one protect', he was named that way because his father wanted him to protect one thing in life, or something like that. It's not a pun, unless you consider names like Victor or Michael puns too. And it can't be translated as Black Cape 15. Also the info about Renji and Byakuya and other seems quite unlike Bleach. Please say where you got it. -- Ynhockey 01:26, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Bah, Wikipedia should really ban unregistered users. While I'm 99% sure you're not reading this (149.something), please don't change terminology that seems standard on the Bleach pages without at least starting a discussion first. I.e. Vizard. Also that white guy in Zangetsu's world probably was not his inner hollow. If you have evidence to the contrary, please, again, start a discussion and provide chapters. -- Ynhockey 13:04, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Erm, I'm pretty much positive that the ghost indeed was Ichigo's inner hollow. Judging by the ghost's comments in chapter 111, specifically his reference to Ichigo as "partner." Also Zangetsu's comment in 110 that "your opponent: is yourself." Also contrast the eyes with Ichigo when the hollow takes control.

If you watch the anime episode for that event, it is even clearer, as the ghost makes a comment about how (and I paraphrase) "will have him soon enough anyway" and then proceeds to portal himself away in the same manner as the hollows do when they leave for the Hollow Realm. Also, he was not created by Zangetsu, he was simply summoned to the inner realm by him.

On a semi-related note, 202.156.6.60's edit has been reverted, as Isshin is not known to have been the 11th division captain, it's just theory. Also, information like that would go in a seperate article about Isshin, not here. --Tjstrf 03:05, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually I think it's not even possible that Isshin was captain of the 11th division. Didn't Tousen clearly say that Zaraki killed the previous captain? Although I guess there's a possibility that Isshin cheated death somehow since he was close to Urahara who can seemingly do anything.

As for the inner hollow, I agree that the comment 'I will have the power soon' clearly implies that he is indeed the hollow, but some of the other quotes leave me to doubt it. For instance, he said it was OK that Ichigo won that fight, which seems weird considering he's Ichigo's greatest enemy and would've probably had control if he had won. Also apparently Zangetsu is the one who controls how he disappears. In any case, because many seem to agree on it, I put that the part about the hollow a while ago. Feel free to re-word it. -- Ynhockey 04:54, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure they ever said he actually killed the old captain, but knowing Kenpachi's bloodlust, I don't think any other outcome is likely. Also, consider the hollow as a split personality inhabiting the same body. While he obviously wants to overcome the real Ichigo, (Begin random non-encyclopedic theorizing) he also supports Ichigo's growing stronger, at least as far as combat is concerned, because it will make him stronger as well. Even without that, it is definitely not in his best interests for Ichigo to ever lose. Also, since the other Vizard seem to be in control of themselves, or at least not completely submitted to instinct, the inner hollow may be capable of working cooperatively with the true person. After all, when Ichigo is fighting with his hollow, neither Ichigo or the hollow is able to do anything else. --Tjstrf 06:51, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

The latest chapter, 217, confirms that the white Ichigo is actually his inner hollow. This chapter ends with the Vizards sending him to have another inner fight with the white Ichigo, saying that he needs to consume the inner hollow before it consumes him. — TheBenignBovine| (talk) 06:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Wandering a bit from the topic of hollows:

"Ichigo (sometimes called "Strawberry", though this nickname is more prevalent in the manga version)"

Eh? Ichigo can mean strawberry in japanese so it would be fairly hard to distinguish between his name being used as his name and it being used as a nickname meaning strawberry... I haven't seen anything to indicate this but I haven't that many episodes... I'm guessing in the manga when it's a nickname it's written in hiragana? -- V 17:11, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I have actually never read the Japanese version of the first few volumes, but I suppose it's spelled 苺 (ichigo, strawberry) instead of 一護 (Ichigo, Ichigo). What I do know however, is that in manga chapter titles, which are mostly in English (even in the original version), strawberry is mentioned several tiems. -- Ynhockey || Talk 17:36, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

In the latest chapters one of the vizards call Ichigo berry-chan or berry-tan. Just wanted to point out. --Chemicalist 22:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Uncle/Old man

In light of recent edits, I've come to realize that I don't remember actually Ichigo ever calling Zangetsu 'old man'. Instead, 'ossan' (uncle) was used. I haven't read the Japanese version of the older chapters though so it's hard to tell. But can anyone please verify if indeed both are used, or just ossan? I'll try to if I have time, but don't remember all the exact places where Zangetsu appears. -- Ynhockey 17:42, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

'ossan' doesn't just mean uncle it can also be used in an informal tone as 'old man'. That's the thing about japanese nothing ever translates directly. -- V 15:48, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that's how Lunar Anime translated it in the anime when they were still subbing Bleach.--Chemicalist 22:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You need to be careful here, because 'ossan' is a short hand. 'ojisan' can mean 'uncle' (also used for middle-aged men and family figures) while 'Ojiisan' can mean 'grandfather' (although it is also used out of respect for the elderly). It is the same with the female variant 'obasan'. 'Ossan' doesn't have the distinction between the two (the length of the I sound), so it could mean either.

Sam 10:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ichigo is first to be born to shinigami lineage?

This was under Ichigo's Family. We've seen a few things in the manga and anime that would disprove this. During Byakuya's monologue about his promise to Hisana, he says he visited his parent's grave. Also, I think its stated that letting people from Rukongai into the Kuchiki family was against the rules. Since all souls go to Rukongai after they die, shinigamis must have been born to continue the lineage of these noble families. So, I'm taking out that sentence. TheBenignBovine 01:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I think whoever wrote that may have meant that Ichigo was the first to be born to someone using a gigai. Since shinigami are the ones that primarily use gigai, that may cause some of the confusion. However, we have no proof that even that case is true (there's nothing to disprove it either) and I'm not sure how that could be worded, so ultimately I agree with your deletion.--み使い Mitsukai 15:53, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

i believe that ichigo is the first hybrid shinigami human in my opinoin.

Kuroi Getsuga

Correct me if I'm wrong, I believe Kuchiki-taicho was only making reference to its color, not actually giving it a different name, as "during bankai, it is in a modified form (as Byakuya Kuchiki notes), called Kuroi Getsuga (lit. Black Moon Fang), which was first used by his Hollow side" would imply. --AngelusInsomnus 15:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

That's actually likely, we should probably wait until the anime reaches the part where they show Ichigo vs. Grim Jaw to see if the blast is black there too. If so, we should change it; otherwise, I don't really care. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 18:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

That's gonna take a hella long time, lol. Look at Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou in chapter 219 pages 12; Ichigo's was black and he was in control. Same goes against Grimjaw. Surely the color black in a black-and-white environment can't translate to light blue in the colored environment of the anime? =P Meh, I don't really care myself though. --Chemicalist 22:36, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

In both the anime and manga, Getsuga Tenshou is blue and in a crescent form when in Shikai. When in Bankai however, it loses the crescent form and the blue color to become stronger. Ichigo can manipulate the 'Bankai' Getsuga Tenshou into any form, and it changes color. -- Guest.

Uh, actually, the crescent is still there, they just tend to bounce and twirl around as Ichigo controls them. In the later manga, where Ichigo is shooting the things in massive forms, the blast is just huge, but it's safe to assume the attack is still a crescent. Zangetsu is either "cutting moon" or "moon cutter", and the crescent is a trademark symbol of the moon. --Baiseru 6:07, 10 July 2007

Frequent edits

I've noticed that this article is edited frequently and controlled little, and as all other such articles, turns into a mess every few weeks and needs to be copyedited. The structure of the article is also outdated and no one is bold enough to organize it. To fix the situation, I suggest taking the following steps:

1. Organizing the article now into more logical sections (e.g. outline, history, synopsis, abilities) like all other Bleach characters.
2. Agreeing on standardization of terms (see also: Talk:Bleach (manga) and using them consistently.
3. Constantly watching the article for edits as if it were protected, and immediately reverting any sub-par edits. Any new useful info that's edit should be integrated into the article after the revert (or instead of the revert there should be a copyedit), but we all know that such info is added rarely.

For my part, I will try to organize the article today or tomorrow, but would like to hear opinions about how it should be organized. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 19:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe it would be great for this article to be standardized and organized in a format more similiar to the other character articles. However I do believe that as new information comes in from the manga, info should be added on as it usually is, and then out of the edits will come something better. Also, the "Ichigo's family" section should most likely be integrated into the "Character outline" as well as taking out alot of the bulk in the outline and creating the "Synopsis". As far as "powers" they're best off in the "Zangetsu" section. -- Makaio 00:58, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Of course, all new information should be added as soon as it is revealed, although preferrably by editors who know the standards for the Bleach-related articles on Wikipedia. I agree that Ichigo's family should somehow be integrated into the outline, which I'll try to do today, after making a history/synopsis section. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 11:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Synopsis

While the new synopsis is good, and probably the first to be written by an IP user which actually conforms to our standard writing (e.g. shinigami, not Shinigami), it's really way too long for just a small semi-arc of the series. We need to trim the less important parts. Moreover, we should probably also split the entire synopsis into arcs. -- Y Ynhockey ^(Talk) Y 14:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I tried to do as well as I could for editing the page. I have been editing Wikipedia for a while now, mainly sticking to info I know about manga and anime I read and watch. I've also been paying attention to the standards of the article. Feel free to trim it as much as you feel is necessary. I really should get an account...

Just one point I'd like to make about my info: I believe that Orihime did manage to block Yami's initial attack and sent out Tsubaki to attack him. Yami blocked it and was about to attack her when Ichigo showed up. If you believe that info shouldnt be included, feel free to delete it.129.21.107.210 08:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the info about Orihime is true, but I'm not sure it's relevant to this article, as this is supposed to be a synopsis of Ichigo's involvement in Bleach only. I'll see how I can trim it later today. By the way, registering an account is worth it :) you definitely should do it. Until recently that wasn't even a mail confirmation. -- Y Ynhockey ^(Talk) Y 09:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Going by the paragraph-per-major-event scheme, p3 should be merged with p4, p5 with p6, p7+p8+p9 and p10+p11. Obviously they can't be gigantic paragraphs so they need to be trimmed to the size of the others. I don't think this will be too hard, I'll start working on it now. -- Y Ynhockey ^(Talk) Y 09:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yea, so I've finally signed up for an account. This is 129.21.107.210, if you couldnt already tell. - GhostStalker 05:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Synopsis 2

I'm writing this under a new heading so that hopefully it will get noticed. When editing this article, please keep the following in mind:

• The synopsis is only about Ichigo, not about Orihime, Yami or anyone. If an action is not directly related to Ichigo (such as Yami firing a cero blast), it probably shouldn't be here.
• Article size - not that we're close to the limit, but the synopsis is much longer than it should be, so if something can be said with fewer words, it should.
• English grammar and style - namely, if all sentences in a paragraph are in present tense, there shouldn't be one odd sentence in past tense.

I think that's all for now, I'll go trim the newly added info.

-- Y Ynhockey ^(Talk) Y 19:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll just apologize on here for my spelling issues: I have occasions when I just forget how to spell, so sorry. -- Makaio 20:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Just a thought

I was going to tag this article for cleanup because the 'synopsis' section isn't really much of a synopsis is it?

synopsis: A brief outline or general view, as of a subject or written work; an abstract or a summary.

Giving an extremely detailed account of what happens in each arc no longer classifies as a summary. I think we can all agree that the Manga subsection is not brief. I suggest either taking out some of the extraneous information or start a new article detailing just the plot of Bleach. Pzerimars 13:50, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this isn't good as a summary, that's why I posted all the above about trimming it. I have already trimmed a lot if you look at my edits, but no one is able to decide (and be bold) on what other things to remove. Also, make no mistake, this isn't a section on the plot of Bleach, it's about Ichigo's involvement in Bleach, which happens to be almost universal unfortunately. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The main page Bleach (manga) article follows all the guidelines of general synopsis and gives a good explanation with a NPOV. All other Bleach related articles, like this character page, are simply more detailed aspects of the main page. That is why pages like this exist, to expand upon what doesn't need to be said in the main article, thus explaining why this page has alot of detail.

So visualize this: some guy who has never seen Bleach before wanders upon the subject, what will he see first? Answer: the main page. And if that guy gets curious and wants to explore more in depth, he will want to come to a page that explores all aspects of the subject of concern, in depth.

Sure, the article could use a little trimming... maybe. But I see no real reason why we should cut down this page that has the information, and make another page (which would be kinda like a sub-sub-article to the main article) with the same information.

Sorry to add another part to this, but I can only see people eventually start saying, "Fuck it! I'm not going to go to another page for a summary of what this guy does!" And then the article will become absolutely useless (as opposed to being fun and entertaining). --Makaio 06:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Character Outline

The Character Outline includes a lot of info about the Kurosaki family. Only the first two paragraphs are specifically about Ichigo's characteristics. There's so much info it could be under its own heading. The 2nd to last paragraph seems out of place. IMO it could be moved to the Zangetsu section, which is more about Ichigo's power.- 71.212.2.68 23:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Section by section trimming

I am going through the article section by section and trimming out bits which seem to be irrelevant to Ichigo personally. I would appreciate any help other editors could offer towards this end. In addition, since I am prone to comma splicing and writing in the passive voice, don't feel guilty if you tear apart my writing stylistically, I probably deserved it. --tjstrf 23:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Powers info not in sync with manga?

I was just looking at the powers section and noticed it mentions nothing about Ichigo's vizard powers, like when he 'tranforms' into a hollow in the later chapters of the manga, like when he fights Grimmjow Jaggerjack. Has that been left out deliberately, or is it just that no one has added them yet? Someone please clarify. -- Armuk 19:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The information has not been added yet. Someone needs to remove at least half the article by trimming each paragraph, and until then it's kind of difficult to work on this article. That is probably why new useful information has not been added. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 09:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I have personally tried adding in a few notes of his hollow powers but everytime I do someone just deletes them -- Noman953

Synopsis 3

Just to add in my two cents with the synopsis being toooooo big problem. It seems to be more of a summary of the Bleach storyline than of the part Ichigo plays in it. For the manga section which happens after the bount arc, I think there should only be 4 paragraphs FOR NOW.

• The first paragraph should describe Ichigo's first fight with Grimmjaw (how 4 getsuga tensho's release his hollow and other details included)
• the second should focus on how he he finally gets his hollow under control (how he trains with vizards and fights his inner hollow and how the outside body starts transforming into a hollow, etc),
• the third should focus on his second fight with Grimmjaw
• the fourth should only have one to two lines about Ichigo going to Hueco Mundo to rescue Orihime. Of course this can be further expanded as the story goes on. And all the stuff about Orihime having only 12 hours to say goodbye, and the whole thing about how and why Soul Society won't help with the whole scene of what happens when captain yamato says that Soul Society won't get involved needs to be deleted as its unimportant. All you need to state is that Ichigo, Chad and Ishida are going to Hueco Mundo to rescue a captured Orihime. That's it. -- Noman953

You forgot about Shinji's appearance, and his fight with Yammy (can be dealt with in a single sentence). Also, I would suggest we create a section on Hollow Ichigo as a character. --tjstrf 20:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I completely agree. Also that a new section on Hollow Ichigo should be created. I have tried, but to no avail as people keep deleting for reasons I don't understand as everything I add is more or less valid. -- Armuk 19:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Powers

Ichigo doesn't turn into a hollow when he is getting the mask come on him. He turns into a hollow only during that time he went inside his subconscious to fight his hollow self while his outside were turning into a hollow. that's his true hollow form. when ichigo has the mask over him he's combining both shinigami and hollow powers not just using one or the other. so please do not edit what I did in the Powers section. -- Noman953

Hiyori specifically refers to the masked form as transforming into a hollow. (Chpt. 216, pages 2, 9, and 11) Your edit does have some merit, and I will merge it with the previous rather than reverting it, but "hollow transformation" is the correct term for the masked form. btw, the bodily change when Hollow Ichigo has fully taken over is refered to twice that I see, once as the "full hollow" form, (chpt. 222, page 2) and another time as "converting" to a Hollow (chpt. 220, page 6). --tjstrf 08:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I appreciate that you actually explained your edits unlike most wikipedia users. btw i have a concern about the last line in the powers section "This body demonstrated a set of previously unseen abilities. These included instantaneous regeneration of limbs, the capability to fire cero, and even greater amounts of spiritual power than in the standard hollow transformation." Everything else sounds great but how do you know that the hollow body releases greater amounts of spiritual power than in the standard hollow transformation. I mean the other vizards were more or less enough to hold him off, and Ichigo beat Byakuya of all people who I think is stronger than the vizards. I think that when he is transforming into the full hollow his powers are equal to what he has a shinigami. In fact I would strongly suggest that he's stronger in the masked hollow transformation than in the full hollow transformation because like I said earlier in the masked form he's using both shinigami and hollow powers, in just shinigami robes he's only using shinigami powers and in the full hollow transformation he's just using hollow powers. -- Noman953

Ichigo's name

I can't remember who it was, but someone called Ichigo's name 'cute', to which he responded that it was 'ichi' for first place and 'go' for guardian angel so there was nothing cute about it. It was either in the Soul Society or Bounto arc in the anime. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sam Ann (talk • contribs) 10:32, September 14, 2006 (UTC)

---Ichigo means Strawberry in Japanese :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.150.236.224 (talk • contribs) 02:55, September 28, 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember that too, but I'm not sure who it was. I'm pretty sure it was before he encountered Ikkaku, because I remember thinking... "oh, Ikkaku likes his name, unlike that other guy." But I might be wrong. --Anaraug 04:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

--- It was Jidanbou who said his name was "cute" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.52.96.10 (talk)

I always knew Ichigo ment strawberry, but why does ichigo insit that the ichi part means first place and the go meant guardian? Plus back at school his nickname was Strawberry.Ultimaterasengan 22:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The word parts "Ichi" and "Go" have several meanings. The true meaning is the guardian meaning he told Jidanbo, but it's also a themed match with his sister's names, which are also homonyms for fruit, and additionally punned with 1-5 (fifteen) for jokes and references. --tjstrf talk 22:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!Ultimaterasengan 01:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture

Is there a better picture of Ichigo's bankai? You know, one where he doesn't have his back turned towards the viewers and is bleeding on the face. There's gotta be something better than this either in the manga or in the latest filler episodes where he uses his bankai or maybe even in the fight against Byakuya. -- Noman953

Actually the whole time Ichigo was fighting Byakuya he was bleeding so you won't find a non-bloody pic. I agree that a recent anime pic would be good and a current manga pic would be better. I'll see what I can find. Gdo01 23:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Episodes 95 and 96 have Ichigo in bankai. However I think a manga picture would be better or one drawn by some fan because the anime quality in those two episodes really sucks compared to the Byakuya fight. Also even though this isn't related to Ichigo, I think Aizen Sosuke needs a change as well from the geeky glasses to the cool badass he really is. If look at the opening of Episode 97 you will see a cool picture of Aizen in hollow uniform. There's also a cool picture of him in full hollow uniform in manga chapter 244 page 18. Could you post one of those on Aizen's page if its not too much trouble. Thanks.-- Noman953

I actually did and it was rejected for being a spoiler and for just being ugly. Anyway, I'll try to look for a good manga pic. Gdo01 23:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I know that there's a sideways on image in the fourth opening of Ichigo in bankai (the opening with the song by Beat Crusaders) if someone can capture that image it would be cool. Sam 16:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey I was wondering of we could find a better picture for Ichigo's Hollow, in that picture he seems quite, goofy. - Raf

Goofy? A little I guess. But then, Ichigo's inner hollow always looks goofy in the anime. They give him this Luffy-esque arm stretching effect which (while it looked fine in stills from the manga) doesn't really animate that well. --tjstrf talk 17:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

What's up with the change in the main picture? The old serious one was definitely better than the new goofy look. 67.135.15.12 08:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

well most of the time when Ichigo uses bankai he uses it after he has gotten beat up but i sure theres a picture out there.....Ultimaterasengan 22:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

His reiatsu is an attack + anime screw up of getsuga tensho

As the title suggests I think we should add Ichigo's humongous reiatsu as an attack in the powers section because he along with Kenpachi are the only ones who have should to have such tremendous reiatsu that they can use it offensively. Strangely its only the people who always have their shikai on who demonstrate this ability. Kenpachi got to be captain because of it, Ichigo defeated Kenpachi using this attack, also remember the last part of his fight with Byakuya he poured all his reiatsu into his last attack. I don't think this is something every captain can do, using just reiatsu to beat an opponent.

Also I have a question about the coloring scheme of getsuga tensho. I always assumed that blue represented shinigami while red represented hollow, so when Ichigo is in control in bankai his aura is blue/black but when his hollow took over it was red/black. So how how come when he fired his getsuga tensho in the filler episode it was red/black and how come you see unmasked Ichigo in the latest opening with a red/black aura going up. This is so confusing. I don't want to include this in the article but someone please explain what's going on here. -- Noman953

I believe Ichigo's bankai getsuga tenshou is always red/black. Its hard to tell since the only other times Ichigo has used getsuga tenshou in bankai form has been in the new manga arc. In the manga, though, the getsuga tenshou just looks like a black arc with no blue or red outline due to limited coloring in mangas. As for your reiatsu question, I think all high level shinigami can use their reiatsu as a weapon just like Byakuya did against Ichigo but I believe they channel their reaitsu to their respective zanpakutous which is also kind of what Ichigo does. Gdo01 22:32, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually what Byakuya did was use his zanpakuto's abiltiy where all the power from the different swords comes into one blade. This wasn't his reiatsu attack but the ultimate attack form of his bankai. That's what I'm saying only Ichigo and Kenpachi have demonstrated the ability to use reiatsu and nothing else as a weapon. Also if you're thinking of Soi Fon and Yoruichi's battle they too were using a mix of kido and something else, not what Ichigo does. And by the way I think the latest opening in episode 98 I believe, has the perfect picture we need for his banaki. In the end of it you see his full body in bakai as well as getsuga tensho. -- Noman953

How do you know that Ichigo's attack is not like Byakuya's? What makes Byakuya gathering up his reiatsu into a sword different from Ichigo shooting out his reiatsu out of his sword? In any manner, a zanpakutou is a shinigami's concentrated reiatsu and kidou can also be considered pure reiatsu blasts (no evidence to the contrary). Aizen recently used his own reiatsu as a way to incapacitate one of his subordinates just like Yamamoto did to Nanao, isn't this also using reiatsu as a weapon? Gdo01 02:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Remember Byakuya says white imperial sword or something when it takes that form. It's a bankai ability. What Ichigo does is use his humongous reiatsu as a weapon, no name given to it. Just like how getsuga tensho is an attack not something purely of reiatsu but an actual ability. and using your humongous reiatsu to incapacitate an opponent is something any high powered being can do as it has been demonstrated many times, but using just pure reiatsu to attack an opponent is what Ichigo has shown the ability to do. he's not using an ability of bankai, kido or whatever, its pure reiatsu. And if you think about its only the people who always have their shikai on (Kenpachi, Ichigo) who have this trait. If the others have it they certainly haven't showed it. This is all really confusing, but I've heard that Tite Kubo said in some interview or whatever that he wants to go further into Kenpachi's past. Anyway this all seems to be a matter of interpretation but that's just how I feel.-- Noman953

Byakuya's reiatsu had the same effect on Ganju that Kenpachi's initially did on Ichigo, also, IIRC. I don't really see too much of a need to list reiatsu as an attack.--Anaraug 05:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ichigo did not know the name of the getsuga tenshou so according to your logic, his attack was reiatsu when he didn't know the name and a zanpakutou attack when he did know the name. I'm sorry but that is illogical. You still have not addressed the fact that Yamamoto knocked out Nanao, Aizen knocked out Grimmjow, and Byakuya knocked out Ganju (thanks Anaraug) all due to what can only be called "reiatsu attacks." This is hardly a Ichigo-Kenpachi only ability.

Now let's say your hypothesis is right and Ichigo does use his reaitsu as a weapon and getsuga tenshou is not a reiatsu attack. Then that means in the new manga arc, Ichigo has abstained from using reiatsu offensively at all. Gdo01 05:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all Getsuga Tenshou is a slash-based attack. It amplies the slash so much that a crescent-form flies out from it. Ichigo states, it's just Zangetsu swallowing a small amount of reiatsu, and amplifies it at the time of the slash. And there isn't a reiatsu attack. It's the pressure of their reiatsu that knocks them out. Those of Captain or Espada-level can easily do this. It isn't an attack, it's more like releasing reiatsu at a high rate. Tenshou

Powers

Captain level. what's up with that? does captain level imply people who've become captains or people who've acquired bankai? in that case i guess Renji and the bald guy are captains too huh. if you ask me the term's too vague and you can't categorize Ichigo in it. he's definitly stronger than those two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.56.182 (talk • contribs)

You didn't have to scrap the whole paragraph. The sentence used to say "high-level" shinigami until another ip changed it. Gdo01 21:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey Hey. Who's been messing with the powers section. If you read the whole thing it doesn't flow consistently. And I agree, you can't call Ichigo a captain since we don't know what that term entails. I'm surprised we have a picture of his hollow here but still no character page for either zangetsu or his inner hollow and I'm not about to spend an hour making those pages again just to have people delete them all over again but it would be nice if wikipedia had pages for 'all' bleach characters as a good "encyclopedia" should-- Noman953

"Captain-level" refers to shinigami (or other characters) whose combat ability is on par with the captains of the Gotei 13. They do not have to be captains, otherwise we would simply refer to them as captains and drop the "-level" from the description. Examples of captain-level characters would be Ichigo, Ishida, Renji, Isshin, the Espada, people who actually are captains such as Soifon and Kenpachi, etc. It doesn't necessarily require you to learn bankai, Kenpachi is a captain and doesn't have one. That part of the phrasing has been worked over repeatedly, actually. When I initially wrote that phrase, it simply read "Ichigo's power as a shinigami is unquestionable". This was later discarded as too vague, and replaced with "Ichigo is a high-level shinigami", which in turn gave way to "Ichigo is a captain-level" shinigami. Good move on the images of Ichigo's inner hollow btw. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 00:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Think a picture of that full hollow state would be good, or would that just be clogging the section too much? Nemu 00:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Probably not necessary yet. If that form becomes recurring, yes, but if it just turns out to be a one-shot deal then there's no point. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 00:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If you want a good picture, go to part in the manga where he goes inside his soul and fights the inner hollow while both of them are in bankai mode. This is where Ichigo fires a black getsuga tensho and the inner hollow fires a white getsuga tensho. I think that pick of the two of them using getsuga tensho on each other would be perfect. And please someone get a new picture of his bankai because in this one you can hardly see what he looks like. I previously suggested using one from the new opening aka episode 100 where in the end of the opening you see a bankai Ichigo use getsuga tensho-- Noman953

Get rid of that half masked picture for the almost-full Hollow form. That would be much more descriptive. --Tenshou

Would the hollow's ability to break zanpakutou with his bare hands count as a power? It is both used in the fight against Byakuya and the inner battle. Is it a power or just a feat accomplished simply through force?QuagmireBlahBlahBlah 18:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Not really, I think it counts as pure force. Remember, Byakuya's blade is made up of tiny Senbonzakura petals, so I think with pure force, it could be broken. About the Tensa Zangetsu being broken, well, since it isn't the true sword it could be broken,yes?--Hanaichi 02:02, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Ichigo's story NOT a Plot Summary

Oh God no, its happening again. Once again this page is becoming a summary for the entire Bleach story rather than just Ichigo's part. I understand its 90% Ichigo's story but that doesn't mean you need to include unnecessary stuff. The Hueco Mundo arc can be put in one simple line Ichigo and friends depart to rescue Orihime meet Nell and whatever they are and then meet Rukai and Renji. Remember you don't have to include every single detail possible like that fight with the sand hollow. just include important stuff so the article can grow steadily as the manga progresses not exponentionally. PS: I think its high time we put in a plot summary section for the whole Bleach story where all you diehards can make the story as detailed as you want it to be but for Ichigo's character page please only include important details -- Noman953

I agree. The amount of the story that's retold here is just horridly unnecessary, and the wording is diverging a lot from that which an encyclopedia should use. A "storyline" section is not really necessary for a character page, and if it does, it should be a short, workable summary. I know they're not exactly comparable stories, but look at Link (The Legend of Zelda)'s article versus Ganon's for an example of what I mean. Whereas the former, notably a featured article, takes a summary-oriented approach, the amount of the storyline written out on the latter (non-FA) is ridiculous. -- Digital Watches! 22:35, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Seem's like it has happened again. I think the amount of detail here is a tad too much for a character profile. SirMeh 16:22, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Birthday

Can someone get an official source for Ichigo's birthday. I know that an early scanlation said July 7 but later ones have consistently said July 15. If an official Japanese source could be found, this would solve the problem. Gdo01 23:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

It says July 15th on his character bio page. Check the RAW. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Necessity of the name meaning section?

A lot of this section seems either speculated, unnecessary (bordering on fancruft), or just a collection of one-shot puns made with his name by various characters. Do we really need it? -- Digital Watches! 22:37, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that I look at the section, the answer is no. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 08:55, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I got rid of it, anybody who thinks it's necessary is welcome to talk about why they think so. Mwsilvabreen 12:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I recently made a major edit, removing the Family section and completely rearranging the early paragraphs. I left the name meaning in for now, but I'd like to cast my vote (as it were) for its partial removal. I believe the information on it meaning either "strawberry" or "one guardian" is important, and as I understand it it's mentioned in the series and sheds light on why his peers don't take well to him. The rest can go though, as it seems like original research (especially as "ichigo" cannot read 15) and is unimportant. (Major edit was 30 minutes before I registered, and so is down with my IP.) Elyssaen 03:34, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Can't read 15? Howso? いちご ("Ichi-go"), sounds the same as one-five in Japanese, so it's a recurring pun. --tjstrf talk 03:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I should say that it has the elements which could be put together as 15, but isn't 15 actually juugo? "Ichigo" seems like it would be "one five" rather than "fifteen". Furthermore, either I've missed the vast and theme-underpinning significance of the number 15 in the series (in which case I'd suggest it actually be said in the article), or the number's not so important as to make "ichigo" worth associating with "15". How do you feel about the importance of this section, both the ichigo->15 note and the rest of it? Elyssaen 04:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Read the early chapters and notice how often the number 15 "coincidentally" shows up. (His age, the number on his door, his clothes in practically every scene, etc.) The closest parallel I can think of that works in English would be if a character named Forte had their name constantly visually punned off of forty to the extent that any time there was a number that would normally just be something random it had a 40 in it. (A pity there's no 15th division, or we'd already know what his final fate in the epilogue of the series would be: becoming its captain.)

Anyway, I support having a few sentences about his name because we mention the name meaning of everyone else in the series and his is actually more important than most cases because it's the subject of several Japanese puns that it makes sense to explain. It's just one paragraph now anyway, when the person was complaining earlier it for some reason had been given its own subsection. --tjstrf talk 04:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

(Random unindent) The number fifteen (15) would be juugo literally, however putting the number 15 in might just be a pun on ichigo (strawberry) being ichi-go. I doubt that 15 is the actual meaning, because the number would be juugo in Japanese, and I don't think we should put in that it's a definite thing that 15 is used because of it being ichi-go without some source saying that it was intended. Sometimes, symbolism's all in your head. (Like the red apple in Death Note, which was thought by fans to be some allusion to the Fall from Grace or any number of things, but it was only picked because red would contrast with the dark colouring of the death gods.) Nique talk 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

No, it's definitely intentional. Just take a glance at things like his Kanonji fanclub ID #15. --tjstrf talk 01:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

For another example, in anime episode 118 they had Grimmjow explaining what the Spanish numbers used to label the Espada meant during the preview segment at the end. Ichigo's voice is quite clearly heard yelling in the background "What's 15?", referring to his own name. The individual instances are trivial, yes, but they build up to show that the reference is significant. --tjstrf talk 19:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Transformation

Originally I thought the slow transformation was just a one time deal to overdramatize his shift from shikai to bankai but now I saw the exact same thing happen in the Kariya fight. I figured I might as well add it in the bankai section since its not stated. Check out para 2 on bankai to see what I wrote. Also its time we did some trimming or something in the talk page. Most of these topics are no longer being discussed and so they need to go because its getting too long--Noman953 15:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You can't delete anything from talk pages. What you can do is archive it, but this page isn't long enough to archive yet. As for the paragraph you wrote, I will look at it now. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It should also be noted that you should use initial/final release as opposed to shikai/bankai, at least until the dub catches up to that point. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

First appearance of Ichigo's innher hollow

I don't know if there is a place to put this... but I think that there was an appearance by his inner hollow one even before his training with Urahara.

In Ichigo's initial fight with Renji, he was soundly whooped, and left on the ground, unable to fight. Suddenly, his reiatsu spiked up, and he was in perfect fighting shape, even better than before. He could move faster, hit harder, becoming even stronger than he could register, telling Renji he was "moving really slow all of a sudden."

Another thing that is commonly overlooked, is that Ichigo's face also looks different. He seems to be enjoying the raw adrenaline of the fight, taking enjoyment in fighting more than usual, laughing and taking on an almost sinister appearance. I think that, like his inner shinigami powers that were awakened by Rukia's, that his hollow powers were awakened as well, in that moment when he was so close to death. Similarly, his hollow awoke in the fight with Byakuya when he was pushed to his limit, Kariya (in the anime) when he was reaching his limit (although this was only a slight flicker of his Hollow's conciousness), and against Yammy and co (in the manga), barely able to hold it back when he was hurt. It all fits. Anyone agree? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.95.1.115 (talk) 05:22, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

That was just the reiatsu pump-up like he used to fight against the Menos. His inner hollow didn't exist yet. --tjstrf talk 05:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Al Pacino is Ichigo's favorite actor?

Where did it show that Al Pacino is Ichigo's favorite actor?

Volume 1 compilation -> chapter 7 -> page 22. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 00:47, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Zangetsu/Zaraki

The segment in this page about Zangetsu features this quote: "Unlike those of most shinigami, who can seal their zanpakutō after releasing it, Ichigo's zanpakutō is always in its initial release state like the zanpakutō of Kenpachi Zaraki, likely due to the fact that both men possess unusually large amounts of spiritual energy." This is inaccurate, because Zaraki never sealed his Zanpaku-to or learned its name to begin with, it's just a very powerful unreleased sword. Ichigo's is on release at all times because he cannot surpress his energy that far, which is accurate, but to equate it to Zaraki's in wrong. Anyone agree? 72.95.15.68 04:12, 3 February 2007 (UTC)Dan

We thought this as well until evidence was provided from the Official Character Book clearly stating that Zaraki's sword is constantly released, in the same way as Ichigo's Zangetsu. I believe the discussion was at Talk:Kenpachi Zaraki. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 11:33, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Two Days/Three Days

Seen this edit many times now, one way other the other, and I figure it deserves it's own topic here. Now, I've never edited this personally, but I'm curious why the two days edits are being undone. Yes, the normal process was supposed to take 3 days, but the anime at least made a big deal of Ichigo having only 2 days to do it since Rukia's execution was moved up. So, is this coming purely from the anime (in which case it probably should be noted as such), is it some technical reasoning (again should be noted in that case), or what? Derekloffin 01:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

IIRC it took Ichigo 2.5 days to train with the doll towards the final release. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 02:19, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yn recalls correctly. But since days are counted inclusively, 2 and any fraction of a third day is counted as three days. In this case "3 days training" is not the same as "72 hours training", but rather means "training across the span of 3 solar cycles". --tjstrf talk 02:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Constant-Shikai Type

Earlier in the Zaraki Kenpachi discussion page(Back before headers were being used) editers made mention of a page in the official character book "Souls" which describes the "Constant-Released Type" Shinigami Which includes Ichigo and Zaraki. An unregistered user posted a picture for page 258 which no longer works I was wondering if someone could post another scan of that page. --Bushido Brown 07:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Vizard

I'm not sure, but I think that Ichigo isn't a Shinigami anymore. After all, he's technically a Vizard. So should he be, like, moved in the character selection?Chiaman280 02:28, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Vizard are still shinigami, just like the arrancar are still hollows. The only difference between them is that the Vizard have obtained hollow powers (and vice-versa for the arrancar). // PoeticDecay 02:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I would say Ichigo is a class on his own. Both vizard and arrancar have shown shikai, but only ichigo has a bankai as well.--Noman953 20:22, 17 Febuary

I would stil consider Ichigo to be a Shinigami as well. As for the other Vaizards not reveiling a Bankai they may not have reached that level yet or they may have never needed to use it yet, after all the hollow mask powerup is much stronger than the Bankai power up. --Bushido Brown 02:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I think Ichigo is a Vizard-Arrancar Shinigami hybrid. Think about it- when he was training with Urahara, he was of Shinigami blood (thanks to his father), even if he didn't have Zangetsu. He then became a Hollow and reverted back to Shinigami. So it goes like this for him- Shinigame > Hollow > Shinigami. Chozen1 16:32, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

My personal opinion on what Ichigo is is that he is neither an Arrancar of a Vizard. Vizards are Shinigami who have taken the path to learn the hollow skills. It can be said that Ichigo never really got a choice in that matter, as during his training, he had already gained his hollow side. An Arrancar on the other hand is one that is a hollow that is able to remove its mask in order to gain some Shinigami skills. Ichigo took neither of these paths, so I would agree with Noman953 and that Ichigo is really his own class. Q E11even 03:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You've got to think that at least Hirako Shinji has bankai. He was toying with Ichigo without releasing his sword. And then when he was fighting Grimmjow, he didn't release it, he just beat the crap out of Grimmjow with his mask. Ichigo is a vizard. He doesn't refer to himself as such because he doesn't align himself with the vizard. It's just what he is, which is a Shinigami with hollow powers. Ishida points out to Ichigo that Ichigo is technically a shinigami, but that he isn't aligned with them in the hueco mundo arc.

As far as the vizard's using their masks because it's more powerful, It's more likely why they can control it for so long. Ichigo uses his mask as a last resort, after using bankai. If he started off with the mask, and then releasing his bankai, he'd probably be able to control it more. --Baiseru 6:29, 10 July, 200y

Do we need a Hollow Picture?

I just noticed that the only Ichigo related picture we don't have is of his true hollow form. Though I am against cluttering this page with too many pictures, I wanna know if any of you think we should have it to give viewers the best info possibe. But then again, it was only a partial transformation so I don't think it'll be a big deal if we choose not to have it. But I am eager to hear what you guys have to say.--Noman953 21:00, 17 Febuary

Only if it becomes a recurring state. --tjstrf talk 00:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to wait until we have an anime image from the new arc. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:27, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I have uploaded this image showing Ichigo in mask form.What do you think of it? Image:Ichigo_Masked.jpg--Hanaichi 12:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Ichigo's zanpakutō

Ichigo's zanpakutō is always in its initial release state like the zanpakutō of Kenpachi Zaraki,(taken from article)

Thats not true kenpachi has not even learned the name of his zanpakutō so how could his sword be in its first release state. How could they be anthing alike? Rocks Lotus 00:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

for a while Ichigo didn't know the name of his zanpakutō like kenpachi and i think they even said at one time the Kenpachi's zanpakutō was always in its released state even though he didn't know its name NekrosKoma 00:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

But Ichigo was not able to use his initial release till he learn his zanpakutō name its the same for all shinigami and i cant remeber the anime or manga stating that kenpachi's zanpakutō was in its first release state(i may be wrong but im pretty sure im not). Rocks Lotus 02:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

no ichigo had his initial release and used the getsuga tenshō on Urahara (cutting his hat in half) with out even knowing Zangetsu's name and that the attack he just used was the getsuga tenshō, the first time Zangetsu told Ichigo his name in the manga it was censored while in the anime the audience heard it but Ichigo did not NekrosKoma 15:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that attack was Getsuga Tenshou, for one, it wasn't blue but a blue a white and it didn't actually shoot out that kinda reiatsu. Another thing is the sealed zanpakuto cannot use any kind of reiatsu attack, they are "big fluffy things shaped like swords" when they aren't released according to Urahara (ReshenKusaga 00:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC))

I was referring more to the manga than the anime, all Ichigos sword is in its sealed state before training with Urahara is a broken hilt thats why he had to train with Urahara to release his zanpakuto, but either way once Ichigo got his black cleaver he has never released it in any way (during Urahara's training or the fight with Kenpachi when he learned Zangetsu's name) in both cases its always been the black cleaver which is nothing like other Shinigami's sword in their sealed state, and if the cleaver is Ichigos sealed zanpakuto then that would mean he has never released his sword to use its initial release and the getsuga tenshō which he can only use with his sword released, yet he can use getsuga tenshō with a sealed zanpakuto? or that Zangetsu's sealed and initial release look the same yet Ichigo has never used the usual phrase that shinigami use to activate their initial release NekrosKoma 03:31, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

When Ichigo fought Kenpachi he already new Zangetsu's name all he learned was a few key things about him like how he does not like rain and so forth. Even thou it is not said, when he is training with Urahara and makes his initial release to his current Zanpakutō, in the manga Zangetsu say's "my name is" clearly telling Ichigo his name. Just becuase we dont see it written there doesent mean it didnt happen. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rocks Lotus (talk • contribs) 09:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

In reply to the initial inquiry, the information is taken from the SOULs databook, page 258. Also please don't forget to sign your name with dates (~~~~). -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 09:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Please prytell Whats the SOULS databook? Rocks Lotus 09:49, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It's an official Bleach character book, released ages ago. I think the RAW can be found at Bleach7 dot com. A scanlation is not available as of yet. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 09:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough if it says it in the databook i wont argue with you. Rocks Lotus 09:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Watching the dub reminded me that during the Kenpachi fight, Zangetsu claims that Ichigo's wounds exceed his power to stop. The clear implication is that Zangetsu has some ability to heal (or at least triage) Ichigo's injury. Any thoughts on whether this is clear enough to merit a sentence along the lines of: "Zangetsu also has displayed the power to temporarily limit the effects of Ichigo's injuries during combat." ? Xymmax 16:29, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's been two weeks without comment, so I guess I'll throw it in there and see if anyone disagrees. Xymmax 12:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Just because no one pays attention doesn't mean they agree. There's no telling if the ability is unique. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Ichigo's strength

I strongly disagree that he is 'well above' captain-level. Not only did he not beat Byakuya or Kenpachi (even though they admitted defeat, he was actually incapable of combat after their fights, as were they, signifying a draw), he also arguably got weaker after the Soul Society arc (see the entire part about his resolve). Also, while Kenpachi beat Tōsen (and we're assuming he can also beat Komamura, although that has not been proven), we do not know whether he is even in the top half of the captains. Some final releases may be too much for him. Byakuya is a comparatively young captain, implying that he is not one of the strongest (although this is also speculation). Even though Ichigo's strength has been buffed up with the vizard training, it is still complete speculation in my opinion to say that he has 'well above' captain-level fighting capabilities. Moreover, there is no single captain level, and Ichigo is clearly not at the level of Aizen or Yamamoto. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

"he was actually incapable of combat after their fights, as were they, signifying a draw" But he fought Azien, with his bankai, soon after his fight against Byakuya. Even though he lost miserably, he still had enough power to use his bankai, which should mean something about his level.Hotaruofmibu 01:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

More than likely he was at least partially healed by Orihime. Keep in mind that she didn't have the same mastery of her time reversal powers then as she does now, so it would've taken a really long time to fully heal him. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 08:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought that Aizen Refuted Ulquiorra's claim that Orihime's power was a temporal spatial ability?

More like something about the ability to reverse God's plans or somesuch. But that's beyond the scope of this discussion. -- Seraphchoir 19:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of "captain level"

The previous discussion makes me question the notion of a captain level shinigami. As far as the story is concerned, there are shinigami who are only strong enough to use kido but not shikai and bankai, there are those with enough reiatsu to have shikai, and then there is bankai which is so amazing that Byakuya says those who have it are written in history books. We have not seen all the captains in action. And by Ikkaku's side story it seems anyone with bankai is qualified to be a captain. So does that mean captain level implies those with bankai? Then Renji and Ikkaku would be in that category. But wait, what about Zaraki? Aizen and Yamamoto are probably as beyond someone like Renji or Sajin Komamura as Ichigo is beyond Kon. My main point is captain level is too undefined to be used as a category of power. Kubo has not given Bleach proper categories of power like kage, jonin, genin, you get the point. I'm not saying we should drop the captain level category, I'm just saying its not a very good one. PS: the powers section is getting a bit overcrowded AGAIN.--Noman953 03:00, 16 April 2007

Do you have an alternative? Preferably something that's been used in the story as well? -- Seraphchoir 19:41, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem is nothing is being used in the story. If I have an alternative its to say shikai level would imply someone who has only shikai, bankai level could imply someone who has reached bankai, kidou level could imply a shinigami who can use kido but neither of the released states, and then their could be something like "normal" or whatever to imply shinigami who can pretty much do nothing though we don't ever really see that category of reapers in action so its not important.--Noman953 16:05, 18 April 2007

Possession of a final release does not automatically catapult one into the same tier as a captain. See Byakuya's tirade to Renji and Kenpachi not even having a final release. In any case, "captain-level" is a general term for any person (captains not included) that could adequately match any captain in combat, or comes close to that requisite level. There's no "standard" captain, as their abilities are so varied, but the statement is general enough to take this into account. All of them passed the requisite test to become a captain, so they all are at least at a certain level of proficiency that can be considered "captain-level." For the Kenpachi, the exception to the rule, he can be considered captain-level by virtue of killing his predecessor, and being able to fight against Komamura and Tosen simultaneously. Same with Ichigo - being able to fight on par with both Kenpachi and Byakuya cements this. Sephiroth BCR 00:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Also note that your classification system fails to recognize other mixes of shinigami skills; for example, Rukia is skilled in various types of kidou and has obtained her shikai, whereas Renji has reached bankai level but admits he sucks at kidou.

In any case, I support Sephiroth BCR's points. -- Seraphchoir 12:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that Renji and Ikkaku indeed have the potential to become captains they just aren't officially regonized. Renji not so much but Ikkaku probably since Renji was quite sure he could make it. Regardless, that's not what the debate is about. Like you said there's no standard captain as their abilities are so varied. And its that very same fact that makes captain level so undefined to recognize as a deciding factor in judging levels of power. To me captain in the story is only a military title at best. Like I said I'm not for getting rid of the word in the articles, I just feel it doesn't let us judge power levels between characters effectively. Regardless the only part of my classification system that seems effective is the shikai and bankai ones. Other will just need a few extra words to define them like being able to use kido but none of the releases--Noman953 10:05, 19 April 2007

Well, shikai and especially bankai vary just as much in power/ability as the captains, as they are the primary mode of combat for most captain-level shinigami. You could make levels such as "acquired shikai" and "acquired bankai", but those aren't indicative of skill: Kenpachi is the obvious exception, and many characters haven't revealed the full extent of their abilities yet so we don't know what level of release they can perform. There's also the occasional oddball like Yoruichi who doesn't even have a zanpakuto anymore as far as we know. In any case, I think "captain-level" is a good descriptor for not being a captain but being able to fight evenly with one. --Pentasyllabic 17:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Inner Hollow an Arrcannar?

When you first see Ichigo's Inner hollow take control, it is missing half of its mask, which is normally what Arcannar are missing. The Lack of a Sealed hollow Zanpakto is confusing, but it could be that it is constantly released and his arm stretching (which you see in the Anime when he fires the Black Moon Fang while Flipping) is actully the Hollow part he sealed. However, I have not seen the Vizard eposiodes so I am not sure if it is broken while he is fighting it on the inner side, however, his hollow destroys a fully trained Vizard, and almost kills her, then requires constant switching of the group to avoid anyone dieing. He is also missing a Hollow hole, meaning it could have moved to some other place to hide. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.175.205.251 (talk) 18:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC).

No. Arrancar are entirely different. What you suggest is impossible. First off, his inner hollow never removes its mask because it doesn't have one. Second, Ichigo's partial mask was grown on, not partially ripped off. Third, the cartoony arm stretching is just a special effect. Finally, Ichigo's ability to nearly kill a vizard in rage is pure power and nothing else. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 18:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Noone can say on the matter and everything you just stated is just pure specualtion. Given that and the fact we haven never seen or have evidence of a another vaizard fighting an inner hollow , we can presume from prior knowledge that ichigo's inner hollow is a hollow not an arrnacar unlesss chapter releases state that he is an arrancar ( inner hollow) then we cant say. And yes the Hollow transformed ichigo able to almost kill a vaizard in rage is just pure power let it be an example of the strength of the inner hollow.Evxyza92 03:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Hollow Level

In the manga does it ever really say what level (Gillian,Ajuchas,or VastoLorde) Ichigo's hollow is? I mean it has a human form in his inner world, and it looks human-like when he takes over Ichigo's physical self, while Ichigo is fighting for control in his inner world, so I think its a VastoLorde. Then again he did get thrashed by Ulquiorra who's only the 4th arrancar so I don't really know. Ideas? Rin The Red

It's just a hollow. Menos are many hollows in one. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 06:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

That may have been true at the beginning of the series, but I smell a retcon towards any sufficiently powerful individual hollow counting into the menos classes now. (Speculation, I know.) --tjstrf talk 07:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It's already implied to a degree, but that's a stretch and ultimately speculation. I agree that it will likely be retconned though. Sephiroth BCR 07:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

It is possible it could be a menos due to the fact that it can fire a cero. As of now that is the only thing that would prove that Ichigo's inner hollow is meno's we would need more information to prove that it is.Evxyza92 03:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

The Hollow that came out during his vizard training certainly looked small enough to be a Vastolorde (Note that the bigger a hollow is, the less ranked it is) and took on vizards for hours without rest. (Plus it has hyperregen and sonido, so you'd be hard-pressed to put it anywhere below Adjutas, plus the lizard-like thing is definitely more humanoid than Yammy.) However, this is all speculation.

As a response to your comment about losing to Ulquiorra, what if Ichigo could maintain his mask indefinitely? 11 seconds is a really short timeframe to beat someone who could also very well be a vastolorde turned arrancar (again, look at his helmet.)75.2.140.225 03:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Just because Ichigo's hollow can use Cero does not make it a Menos-type. Shinji has also shown the ability to fire Ceros. It can be speculated that any high-class Hollow is capable of firing Cero. And there is no retcon of the Menos' origin because Grimmjow, in his narrative in Chapter 284, once again described the Menos has a hollow composed of hundreds with no individual personality.MegaZilla 16:51, 24 July 2007 (UTC)MegaZilla

It is probably that Ichigo's hollow form is simply extremely strong as a result of Ichigo's massive reiatsu. (More speculation) The difference in strength between the various forms of Menos is probably based on the strength of the Hollows that merged to create it. Standard Hollows with a reiatsu at Ichigo's level have probably never even been seen in previous situtations, as Ichigo's reiatsu is incomprehensible as far as human reaitsus are concerned, and Shinigame don't normally turn into Hollows. (Even more speculation) Ichigo's Hollow form is extremely strong, definately above the level of an Adjuchas, and probably near the level of a Vasto Lorde. If Hollows of that level were to merge into a Menos, the result would probably be incomprehensibly powerful. Menos are made from hundreds of Hollows, so if 100 Hollows of Ichigo's strength were to merge, they would probably have a reiatsu at least 10 times greater than that of a Vasto Lorde. When this was combined with a size compression similar to Ichigo's Bankai, one of these super Menos would probably be able to wipe out all of Soul Society and Hueco Mundo without breaking a sweat. Fortunately, such an event seems quite impossible, as it would require hundreds of souls with captain level reiatsus to become hollows, and if that happened, it wouldn't matter if they merged or not.

Image options

With the latest pair of episodes, we have a new set of potential images for use in illustrating Ichigo's hollow transformation as substitutes for Image:Ichigo's Inner Hollow.jpg. I have taken the liberty of making 3 new versions of that image, and would like input as to which people believe does the best job of illustrating the section.

Our options are:

• Revision 1, white Hollow Ichigo grinning as top panel with half-masked berserk Ichigo. (Taken from Episodes 123 and 59, respectively.)
• Revision 2, white Hollow Ichigo grinning as top panel with partially transformed Ichigo. (Taken from Episodes 123 and 124, respectively.)
• Revision 3, Hollow Ichigo grinning as top panel with half-masked berserk Ichigo AND partially transformed Ichigo. (Taken from Episodes 123, 59, and 124, respectively.)
• The existing image.

I can personally think of reasons for using any of the versions, and as I have no particular preference between them decided I might as well ask for outside input. (If forced to pick, I support Revision 2.) --tjstrf talk 08:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

3 doesn't work, though I uploaded one that seems to match partially. A grinning one is necessary to illustrate that line about its grin. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:43, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Scratch that, fixed link. Three in one seems excessive, as its not illustrating much more. When a good shot of just his full mask comes, that should be added in place of the berserk hollow. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:44, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Eh, whatever works. I think they did a worse job of drawing him in the upper panel of the version you uploaded though. It's true that smirking isn't quite the same as grinning, but if you want the mad grin then wouldn't revision 1 work? --tjstrf talk 08:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. Grinning one in place. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Why not use the almost-fully-transformed berserk Hollow transformed Ichigo, the one that Love was fighting? --Warp L. Obscura 10:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC) Personally i think it would be better and more informative to have the two transformations pictures and picture of the inner hollow.Three would be best because it would yield the most information depending on what the box says for the imageEvxyza92 03:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... I think a frontal image, the one that we see after Love gets cut on the shoulder by the transformed Ichigo's reiatsu, would be better that the cero-casting one, since it hides front details. --Warp L. Obscura 08:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Three becomes too large and looks clunky. After we get a good picture of Ichigo with just his hollow mask (likely during the next Grimmjow fight), it should replace the berserk hollow picture. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 08:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

A picture of hollow Ichigo with the mask only

I just noticed we don't have any pictures of Hollow ichigo with just the mask and nothing else.It's no big deal,I just thought we should,I would but I'm new here and have no idea how to.Burning pheonix 21:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)Burning Pheonix

Disengage, disappear, shatter?

I believe when the page was updated to reflect the events of Chapter 272, "disengage" was used to describe what happened to Ichigo as his appearance and sword changed from bankai to shikai.

I thought "disappear" was more appropriate, so I used that word instead of "disengage."

Someguy0830 then edited the page, using "shatter" in place of "disappear."

The current version uses "disengage." It's a really minor point, but as I explained in my edit, "disengage" subtly connotes a voluntary decision. That is, the user chooses to revert his sword into the standard state; he disengaged it.

By contrast, both "disappear" and "shatter" indicate that the change was involuntary. Ichigo's appearance has reverted back to his regular state without his approval.

We should use either "disappear" or "shatter."Erik-the-red 00:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Be bold. Sephiroth BCR 00:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder. I've changed "disengage" to "disappear" and "return" to "revert."Erik-the-red 13:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

we can change or keep the word depending on what the dub saysEvxyza92 07:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Hollow Ichigo's Voice...

Hm...it has been bothering me for awhile...O_O

Is it true that his hollow's seiyuu is also Masakazu Morita? O,o Coz, if it was...wow, Morita-san is talented. XD

Plus...O_O I can't help it...it's really bothering me. -- 伝説のリヂヤちゃん 03:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Hollow Ichigo's voice sounds rather synthesized to me, so it's quite possible that they just run Morita's voice through some computer distortion. Or that we're just missing a seiyu of course, but I think we would have noticed by now. --tjstrf talk 03:26, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The biggest hybrid in Karakura Town

Couldnt Ichigo be a Vizard/Arrancar/Shinigami/Human? I know it sounds long-winded and far-fetched, but the order of events seems to make this possible... First he was born from a Shinigami father, followed by getting his zanpakto. Then he was trained by Urahara, which lead him to become a hollow, until he defeated it in his soul/mind. Sooo after that he unlocked the shikai state. This diagram should make this easier Human/Shinigami->Shinigami(substitute)-> Hollow-> Shinigami. Now arent Arrancar described as being Hollows then gaining Shinigami traits and powers? And Vizard described as Shinigami gaining Hollow attributes? Do you see my point yet? Chozen1 01:30, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

You obviously haven't met Ishida and Orihime's half-Quincy/Vizard half-Arrancar/Time Warper son yet. --tjstrf talk 01:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

LOL at Ishida/Orihime Shipping. As for Ichigo he's was a human with plus powers and hes always had plus powers, he gained hollow abilities on top of his original plus powers which are doinant so he's still just a Vizard nothing "arrancar" about him. Bushido Brown 01:16, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Ichigo has shinigami powers and hollow powers, not plus powers and hollow powers. The only cases of simple "plus" souls having powers (beyond simple spiritual awareness) that we've seen are Orihime and Chad. --tjstrf talk 02:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

zangetsu is standing on tensa zangetsu

I have been wondering what zangetsu is standing on when ichigo faces his inner hollow i believe that it it is the sword from ichigo's bankai i mean what would make sense we know he standing on a sword. It was always there and from listening to an episode when ichigo is training for bankai with zangetsu he says that ichigo might have always known that he had the power of bankai like how the sword is their but doesnt make such a presenceEvxyza92 02:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

That's a giant nail. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:16, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Wait how is that a giant nailEvxyza92 02:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a pole coming out from the wall, like a flagpole or something. --tjstrf talk 02:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

go to this link and go to 7:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yJ9dAD9HGY now look at that and think is that a sword or a nail now why would that flagpole show up in one place and now more than once think zangetsu is standin on tensa zangetsuEvxyza92 02:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Despite what you "think", the fact is that it's nothing more than a pole or a giant nail. It doesn't have a hilt and it doesn't have a blade. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

but why would he stand on a giant nail and not just on the florr like ichigo and his hollow hwat makes that being tensa zangetsu so hard to believeEvxyza92 02:37, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Because, and try to pay attention this time, it is not a sword. Get it? 02:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

i have to ask though what makes that hard to believe and i'll put this to restEvxyza92 02:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Because Tensa Zangetsu is a sword. A black one. It's sharp, and has a blade, and is not suitable for standing on. That pole is silver, and doesn't have a blade, and not sharp, and you can stand on it. How much clearer can we get? --tjstrf talk 02:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

okay then it is overEvxyza92 03:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Missing Citations...

I've added a few citations on the latest chapters, but there are still a load missing. Does anyone have the chapters on their pc or own the manga volumes? Cuz I would like to add more citations, But I only have the first 3 volumes of the manga.RedEyesMetal 09:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Finding the chapters isn't the problem for me, the problem is having the time. It took me most of my free time for about 3 days to cite the fictional content in the main Bleach (manga) article, citing these character articles is essentially going to require a separate read-through for each main character. --tjstrf talk 03:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

You should probably look for real world information before bothering with citations from the series. They're pretty much worthless until real world notability is established. TTN 03:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

"Ichigo Kurosaki... [is the] protagonist in the anime and manga series Bleach created by Tite Kubo."

Well, that was easy. Main character, major series, makes main and character list articles too long if merged, even if we go and trim out all the non-important stuff. Proving he deserves an article under WP:FICT is not a problem.

Finding out-of-universe information in English may be another story entirely, I'm afraid. But since referencing the in-universe stuff also needs done, and will improve the article's verifiability and quality, discouraging it on the grounds that it's useless without the out-of-universe info to complement it is a bit short-sighted, don't you think? --tjstrf talk 04:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Realistically, this could be trimmed down to two paragraphs. It isn't like we actually need to give the whole plot and a detailed description of his personality. Without actual information (how he was actually developed, taken by the world, ect) to prove that we need to repeat the story, it's worthless. Being a major character doesn't automatically make him safe (unless the position comes with a definite possibility for information). I'm not going to push for any sort of merge or deletion, but I'm just saying that filling this with in-universe citations will get you nowhere. Some sort of notability asserted by secondary sources needs to be given. TTN 04:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

You share AMiB's opinion on what constitutes "comprehensive" coverage of fictional elements, I see. I won't reiterate those arguments here, but I would like to disagree on at least one point. Personality information is the most important part of the character's design. Character personalities are what make them unique or tropic, and they are the key thing that is analyzed about a character when they are discussed in a literary sense. Leaving it out would be absurd.

I'm working on sourcing the articles as I find the necessary material. In other words, as I find citeable information, I add it. But rest assured, I'm not particularly afraid for the future of Wikipedia's 245th most viewed page. --tjstrf talk 04:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess, but I hope I'm sharing the opinion of a great deal of people as well, or people just don't care about the basic principals of this site. Personality is dandy and all, but unless backed by something non-trivial, it can just be trimmed down and cast aside. We need some sort of real world relevance to make this more than something that belongs on a fan wiki.

It is fine to source in-universe stuff. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be your only focus or it'll be for nothing in the end. It'll be a great while before major characters are being merged, but I hope to reach that point eventually. TTN 05:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe it's the readers, not us, who should be the ones deciding that question. Would the article be improved by adding out-of-universe content? You bet! However, I believe it is adaquetely serving the needs of its thousands of viewers even as is.

Now I believe you probably have an AfD to be at. Namely this one. --tjstrf talk 05:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that is that the readers don't decide what belongs here. It doesn't matter how much they like it or how useful it is to them. People may like reading memorials about dead soldiers, but we don't keep them on that basis. If something fails assorted bits of WP:N, WP:V, the fiction guidelines, WP:NOT, and others, and it shows no signs of improvement, it needs to be merged or removed. TTN 12:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I should clarify: in many cases, we have rules which would override the opinions of readers, such as WP:NOT, although I suppose that if a sufficient number of readers become editors and believed the policy was incorrect or suboptimal it would eventually change to reflect the new consensus.

However, in the case of things which fall under the classification of plot summary, our guideline is that plot summaries, while not an end unto themselves, are permitted as aspects of larger topics because they are often necessary in order for readers to understand what the article is discussing. Since the point here is that plot summary is used in a complementary fashion to the understanding of a larger topic, I believe that in these particular cases the amount that the page is being read does reflect the need for it. --tjstrf talk 18:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection

there is some serious vandalism going on by random ip addresses, so we should probably keep this page semi-protected -_- like for instance, a few minutes ago, some guy took to filling most of the page with repeated spam, so can we keep this page semi-protected indefinetly? example: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ichigo_Kurosaki&oldid=141356367 (ReshenKusaga 09:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC))

I agree, it was horribly vandalised.--Hanaichi 10:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Ichigo's hollow mask time limit

After reading the last two chapters (280, 281), I've noticed that Ichigo can assume his hollow form for greater extents of time. He assumed the form to block the gran rey cero, spoke with Orihime, then watched as Grim released and proceeded to fight him for a little bit and his mask still remained at the end of the chapter. I don't wanna assume anything, but it just seems like the limit has been extended. --Time2shyne 23:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Seems like it, but we don't know for sure yet. Also, since both Ichigo and Grimmjow are really really fast, and the last few chapters have been chock full of dynamic motion panels, which take several pages per second, it may just be a case of slowed down presentation for dramatic effect. I wouldn't think he's had it on for more than 20 seconds at longest either way. --tjstrf talk 00:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Agree. That whole spat could very well fit within 11 seconds. Until he says, "Wow, I've never held the mask for this long", 11 seconds can last a single chapter without us questioning it. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Not trying to be rude, but I seriously don't see the logic in that. I see what you're trying to say, but it doesn't work. Try speaking all of the dialogue in chapter 281 alone out loud, not counting the fighting, and you'll see that it's goes on way longer than eleven seconds. Unless, you know, Grimmjow, Ichigo and Orihime speak at the speed of light.--Time2shyne 03:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Not to draw what are perhaps inappropriate comparisons, but do you remember how long it took Planet Namek to blow up? Longest 5 minutes in the history of ever. ~SnapperTo 03:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

All of DBZ takes ten times longer than it should. Fact remains, Ichigo's limit is eleven seconds until someone says otherwise. Not "but it looks like it", says. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Time2, if you're in the middle of combat with a deadly enemy, you aren't going to be annunciating too well. Reading aloud takes far longer than speaking normally, and speaking normally takes far longer than really quickly barking out sentences while glancing over your shoulder to make sure you aren't being energy blasted. (Plus, superhuman speed probably means superhuman jaw movement speed as well.) --tjstrf talk 06:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Ichigo has a reputation for trying to act cool, remember? Plus, if you look at the way he's speaking to Orihime, he's perfectly calm. Grimmjow's the one barking shit out... and Orihime is actually speaking slower than usual, seeing as how she's chopping up her sentences (or just his name in this case) when she addresses Ichigo. Anyway, Someguy 0830 is dead set on his little "says not looks" method for proof, so I'm not really gonna take this any further. Let's just wait and see what happens in the next chapter, and then we can take it from there.--Time2shyne 06:39, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

There you go. Confirmed in chapter 282. The limit's been surpassed, and my educated guess was correct. Alterations to his powers section is in order.--Time2shyne 01:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we all knew it was likely, but that's not the same as being correct. Now you can add it without being guilty of speculation. --tjstrf talk 01:25, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, the second someone says, "Hey, he held it for longer", it's ok to add it. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Can we start enforcing NOTAFORUM now?

In other words, removing topics that don't have to do with editing the article? --tjstrf talk 03:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

By all means. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Hollow Transformation

We've determined now that he is wearing his mask past the eleven second limit, and that's all well and dandy, but it's entirely possible (given his odd behaivor) that it isn't so much an increase in his abilities. Perhaps he is, in a way, pushing himself past his limits, and losing control. By his actions, it wouldn't surprise me if his inner hollow was beginning to leak in. It's also possible that he's found a way to draw on the power of Hueco Mundo to enhance his hollow side. I changed his Hollow Powers section to reflect this uncertainty. Midaki 04:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

While we appreciate your good intentions, Wikipedia is not a place for speculation. We prefer to use the most solid information at our disposal. Still, your effort is appreciated :) Jezebel Parks 04:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That was entirely my point. Saying that his limit has definitely increased is speculation. What I did, leaving room for doubt, is not. Not trying to be mean about this, mind you, but we don't really know what's happening, and until we do, we should exercise caution. Midaki 21:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Can we please add somewhere the fact that though Ichigo is fighting more coldly than he nomally would, and though it is causing Orihime worry and wonder over whether its really him, he also shows regret or maybe guilt at acting that way when Orihime and his eyes meet, and also the fact that he stopped in the middle of the fight to block Grimmjow's "Elbow Darts attack? The articles talking about this all make Ichigo out as turning into a monster, but how about adding something about the fact that there was some definite humanity in him too during all of it. Just to be even-handed about it maybe?

Though everything you mentioned is certainly possible, we just can't add something based on pure speculation. It either needs to be mentioned, as someguy0830 will tell you, or it needs to happen a lot or in some VERY obvious way.--Time2shyne 16:30, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the look of regret on his face was pretty obvious, but even if you don't take that, how about the fact that he did, in fact, block Grimmjow's Elbow Darts attack when he didn't have to. Couldn't we mention anything to that level?

That's STILL speculation. It needs to be crystal clear, preferably in context. Anything else is unacceptable. Jezebel Parks 19:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Elbow darts? To me that looked like he was firing either bala blasts or can launch his claws. I did read it in a bit of a rush though.

Bottom line though: no adding information that isn't directly stated in the books. --tjstrf talk 20:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Elbow Darts. It weirded me out too. Anyway, him blocking the darts isn't speculation, because he did actually do it! Which doesn't fit with his new viscious and scary personality, so we know that Ichigo is still in there. We can't even mention something like that?

I think the color of Ichigo's mask changing is worth mentioning. At first, it only had a couple red streaks on the right side, but now almost the entire right half of the mask is completely red (well, black technically, since it's only in the manga). Viewtiful Rekk 22:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Powers and abilities

Ichigo's "Powers" section was changed to "Power and abilities". I was going to revert it, but seeing as nobody has already done it, I'm not sure if people agree or not. Should it be changed back?--Time2shyne 16:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Something I've always wondered about that choice of name is what qualifies as a "power" and what qualifies as an "ability"? If there is no difference between the two or a character doesn't have both, I see no reason to use that specific title. ~SnapperTo 19:17, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

When I punched "power" into Thesaurus.com, "ability" was the first to pop up, if that helps. Jezebel Parks 19:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Inner Hollow's Warning

This has been bugging me for some time now. When Ichigo had beaten his inner hollow in the anime, it stated this as it was disappearing:

"If you really want to control my power, make sure you don't die before I show up again!"

Of course this could just be a mistranslation, something only stated in the anime or my own misinterpretation. However, the statement made by the hollow seems to imply that if Ichigo wants to fully control it, he has to wait until it fights him again. MastaFighta 19:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the Hollow Ichigo just meant that he'll always be in Ichigo and he'll always be waiting for his next chance to take over Ichigo's body, so until then Ichigo can't die or the Hollow will never get the chance. It's was sort of a threat/warning because even though he hates Ichigo and wants to take over his body, he doesn't want Ichigo to die or he would too. Dramatic, right?

main picture?

should we change it? Ultimaterasengan 17:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Is there any reason to? -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I don't really care, but he looks butt-ugly in that picture. We could put a cooler picture, but like I said, it doesn't really matter. --Time2shyne 21:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The picture should not be changed only for the sake of change. If someone comes up with a good reason to change the picture, I will gladly do it. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 22:09, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I think we should get a picture with him wearing his Shinigami uniform, instead of his High School unifrom, it's just a thought.....Akatasukileader2007 18:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Hollow

It's just an idea it's kind of stupid, but should we give Ichigo's hollow his own page?Akatasukileader2007 18:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

There wouldn't be enough information, plus Ichigo's hallow is pretty much no different than other hollows. The most that could probably be done is adding a section on Ichigo Kurosaki page giving a little description of the hollow and how it came to be inside Ichigo. MastaFighta 01:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

the theme song?

whats teh theme song for? they apparently has it on each character

IIRC, it was just mentioned in their profiles in the manga. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 15:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Pilot Manga

What happened to the pilot manga sections I wrote for Ichigo, Orihime and Rukia? What's so unimportant about that information? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.46.190.57 (talk) 19:54:07, August 19, 2007 (UTC)

Rather than a summary about what happens in the pilot, a blurb on how the character differs between versions would be more suitable. For example, saying that Orihime is attacked by her hollow father and subsequently killed is all that needs to be said about her (assuming I haven't forgotten another drastic difference). ~SnapperTo 22:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't even know whether that pilor exist. Do you have a source for it that I could check out?--Hanaichi 02:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how it came to be so easily accessible (tankoban exclusive maybe?) but this should do it. ~SnapperTo 03:20, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Gag

Isn't the fact that Ichigo 'sucks' in sensing reiatsu's a gag that keeps coming back throughout the series like Rukia's bad drawing? And so shouldn't it be included somewere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomvasseur (talk • contribs) 14:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Getsuga Tenshou

doesn't the phrase Getsuga(月牙) just mean "Crescent?" And therefore Getsuga Tenshou should be correctly translated as "Crescent Sky-Piercer?" 75.0.187.241 00:33, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Thats the literal translation, what is meant is the moon sky-piercing fang. Crescent is the synonym for moon. See, the shape of Gesuga Tenshou is like a crescent moon.--Hanaichi 03:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

We should correct the thing about the description of Hollow Ichigo/bankai usage of Getsuga Tenshou...in the anime the hollow version and the real ichigo both admit that the black/red getsuga tenshou is hollow ichigos move, and that ichigo can use it even without going into bankai, he even uses the blue one against grimmjow while in bankai. --Licourtrix (talk) 19:55, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

All original research. Just because he uses the blue one against Grimmjow in bankai, which he never does, does not mean he can go the other way. He uses the black/red one whenever he is in bankai. Always. StardustDragon 23:34, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Really? i could've sworn i saw a blue one in there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Licourtrix (talk • contribs) 14:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

No, that's Grimmjow's gran rey cero, it's bluish and travels similar to a getsuga. Or it could just be Grimmjow's light-blue reiatsu, colored as such to match his hair, zanpakuto tsuba, Gran Rey Cero color, etc. StardustDragon 03:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Theme Song Removal?

Why was Tite Kubo's inspirational Theme Song for Ichigo (News from the Front by Bad Religion) removed from the page, while other theme songs, namely Rukia's Wing-Stock by Ashley MacIsaac, left on their respective pages? Arukan Harless 20:48, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Ichigo's bankai's chain

Ok on bleach forums people have been making all these weird theories on why Ichigo's chain on his bankai disappears when he dons his hollow mask. I strongly think this isn't true. But I wonder if this speculation has any merit with you guys. Noman953 19:00, 13 September 2007

Any theories or claims of such a nature are original research and not suitable for inclusion into Wikipedia. Now, if a reliable, verifiable, third party source were to comment on such speculation, then it could be included. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not true. Check Chapter 281, particularly pages 10 and 13. You can clearly see that the chain remains even with his hollow mask on. Kyouraku-taichou 23:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Doesnt he swing it by the chain while in hollow form before attacking Grimmjow ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.138.130 (talk) 19:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep, and on many occasions after that as well. Hollow Ichigo invented the swinging of Zangetsu by the chain and tassel; it would make sense that Ichigo uses it more with his mask on. StardustDragon 01:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Birthday

The birthday on this page is listed as July 15th, a translated version of the same Manga page I saw listed his birthday as July 7th, which one is correct? --Stux 17:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

July 15 is correct. That translation somehow mistook 15 for a 7. ~SnapperTo 18:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

That's what I kinda figured (but was hoping for the opposite ), especially since the Japanese version of the page also lists 15. Thank you very much for the screenshot of the original Japanese page! I was trying to figure out how I could take a look at one of those. Again, thank you! --Stux 17:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Ichigo's taste in food

According to the manga, Ichigo does like chocolate but the spicy food he likes specifically is karashi mentaiko (the marinated fully ripe mass of pollock, spicy). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rukia-sama (talk • contribs) 05:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

better Bankai picture

The picture we have right now is a manga one we should change it. The one in the 19th voulme page 89, first panel is good, very good. If some disagree then I think we should get the anime version of the current one. Ultimaterasengan 00:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Graffitti cleanup oddity

Someone had scrawled some curses on top of the "character outline" section. I went to go clean that up, but the offending words were not in the editable text box. I went back to see if someone had already edited. They had not, yet the offending words didn't show up in the editable version of the page. I saved the seemingly editable page as was, and it over-wrote the existing page, restoring the page.

I just thought I'd mention this because it seems like odd behavior. Liquid entropy 04:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

ClueBot beat you to the punch.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 04:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Character bios

I think it should mention more about them: Ichigo, 174 cm, 61kg, blood type AO, High scool student, substitute soul reaper. while im at it, Rukia: 144cm, 33kg, soul reaper. Orimime: 157cm, 45kg, blood type BO, high school student. Chad: 197cm, 112kg, blood type AO, high school student, Uryu: 171cm, 55kg, blood type AB, High school student, quincy. Kon: 27cm, 182g, modified soul. just adding the heights and weights and occupation and if i can, blood type. Uzumaki Dude 04:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

We don't really need to include trivial in-universe details. They're irrelevant to the article as a whole, and have no real significance on the character. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 05:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The information was included in the past, but has since been omitted. Frankly, I think it's somewhat useful and interesting, but due to the recurring vandalism related to it, and the difficulty to verify (not everyone has access to all the character bio pages, plus the RAW often differs from scanlations), we're probably better off without this. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 06:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice to see some details. Replacing "another vizard" with "Shinji Hirako" for example. It's not a big deal, but it is a biography. I honestly liked the longer synopsis, though improvements could have been made.Baiseru 04:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Avoiding specific details for characters or things that otherwise have no impact on what is being summarized is simpler for people unfamiliar with the topic; they aren't being overloaded with more than they need to know about a topic they are just finding out about. ~SnapperTo 20:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

All the character bios he listed can be found in the backs of the first few books...you could easily verify em at your local bookstore. though i do see how they are trivial on wikipedia--Licourtrix (talk) 05:02, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Bankai

Hey, I added the anime version of Bankai. Please don't delete it, there is nothing wrong with it, and it looks basically like the manga one.Ultimaterasengan (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, what is the issue exactly of using an anime picture? I mean, wouldn't that be better than the manga one? --Cronodude360 (talk) 03:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Its a whole issue of fair use crap. i dont expect my picture of pesche to stay around for a while either. though if he gets deleted ill just screenshot a group one of Nel/Bawabawa and the other two. whos names confuse me too much to type individually :) --74.131.138.130 (talk) 19:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Some approval

Does anyone, aside from Hanaichi (talk · contribs) and RattleMan (talk · contribs), object if I place these headers to this article (and other Bleach-related ones)? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Considering that conception and development information is one of the key sources of real world information for fictional characters, they should be placed. If there isn't enough information in that regard, then that's a big indicator that the character probably shouldn't have an article. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 02:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not that I absolutely object to them, but adding the tags and headings without information in the sector makes the article looks odd. Now, if there were information in there, I wouldn't mind tags to be placed. If perhaps the work group can find and add the information plus citations, then go ahead and put the tags. Putting tags to expand a section where there is nothing in that section is odd.--Hanaichi 02:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it that strange? A "reception" header was added to Sand Land by Snapper2 a while back. I've been following this method ever since. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a fairly common practice. At WP:VG, it is often used for fictional characters. In any case, if this article is ever going to try to jump up the assessment chart, then conception or development information is utterly vital. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 03:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Well okay, add them, and find information. Overall, the only character that has real world information is Orihime. I know everyone else is busy doing other stuff, but perhaps there are several sites that offer such information which could be put over here.--Hanaichi 03:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Could someone else try adding the sections? I'm at my 3RR limit. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 03:34, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

And I'm trying to figure out where we find sources for these things. I just did a search on Google but it ain't helping much because most of the sites appear to have ripped it off from wiki. Is there an actual poll in Japanese only or something? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 04:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

They're periodically placed at the first few pages of corresponding Jump issues. BleachExile and Onemanga display them along with the chapters they are released with. StardustDragon 02:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Hollow Ichigo

I'm not suggesting that this would be added to the article, but I was thinking that is Ichigo's hollow form an example of a Vasto Lorde? It's small, somewhat humanlike and possesses high-level hollow powers such as the instant regeneration ability and cero blasts of considerable strenght. Adding this to the article is afaik against policy, since it's original research, but it does match the description of a VL as far as I know, too. --Petrim (talk) 22:50, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Speculation. Likely true, both from what we've seen and because he's the protagonist, but speculation nonetheless. --erachima formerly tjstrf 00:06, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

We could say that Hollow Ichigo fits the description of a VL. that's not speculation, because he DOES fit the description. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muramasa itachi (talk • contribs) 23:28, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Since when has Ichigo devoured thousands of hollows? — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Since when has he had to devour thousands of hollows? We're talking about a captain class shinigami here, his innate ability and spirit power is so huge - and considering all the insane feats he's so far gathered would it be that far fetched to think that his hollow form is an example of VL, just by his sheer amount of native strength? As we have so far seen, lower level hollows (those with less spirit power) are always way bigger than regular humans, usually the size of a small house. Inoue's brother was quite small in terms of usual hollow size, but he wasn't really humanlike, nor the size of a human, was he? Then again the sizing of hollows and measurements of their power has varied wildly throughout the series, as in the earlier chapters the bigger the hollow the more dangerous it was, where as now in Hueco Mundo -arc the heroes cut down Menos Grande like they were nothing and human sized arrancar beat the crap out of the heroes in every turn. This is especially an anime feature - but not that far from the truth in manga either. Well, I honestly don't know what was the point of this since I can't seem to reach a conclusion on the grounds that there just isn't enough evidence and factual information given in the manga. *shrug* --Petrim (talk) 15:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, Ichigo's inner hollow doesn't represent what Ichigo actually looks like as a hollow. During his Vizard training, he became less and less human-like as much of his hollow took over. King Zeal (talk) 12:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Right, but we're talking about Hollow Ichigo's form, not Ichigo's. It's safe to say the lizard-like thing we saw during vizard training is Hollow Ichigo's true hollow form, but whether or not it's a Vasto Lorde is still up for debate. As for Penguin's comment, Ichigo didn't consume any hollows, but God knows what Hollow Ichigo's done. StardustDragon 01:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Hollow Ichigo can only exist inside/as Ichigo, therefore its safe to say if Ichigo isn't devouring masses of hollows, Hollow Ichigo isn't either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.48.213 (talk) 14:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

The whole point in the creation of Menos Grande, Gillian, and Vasto Lordes is that they eat other hollows out of the need for more spiritual energy. Would it be so far-fetched to believe that Hollow Ichigo is feeding off of Ichigo's immense spiritual energy in order to evolve? Yet that theory strikes up another question, is hollow spirit energy the same as soul reaper spirit energy? I believe the status of Hollow Ichigo rests on that question.Chewy0212 (talk) 04:08, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Who voices Ichigo's hollow?

So who does it? Morita himself, or someone else? (Just out of curiousity: James chen0 (talk) 21:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC))

I dunno about Morita, but Bosch does the Hollow in any case.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 01:02, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It's the character's voice done with computer distortion...its been mentioned before...RedEyesMetal (talk) 14:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

vizard?

wouldnt ichigo's use of his hallow powers, knowingly or unknowingly make him a Vizard? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.185.104 (talk) 07:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, which is touched upon in the article a couple of times. ~SnapperTo 19:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Ichigo Gonzales (¡Arriba!)

In lieu of an ongoing "Bankai Breakz Bones?" debate in the page history, I looked up Ichigo's first fight with Grimmjow (chapters 211 and 212). The only mention of his speed is that it increases after using bankai. Unless the anime adds something else to buy time, I'm not seeing any indication that's he's slowing down. ~SnapperTo 22:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

He's harping on page 13 of chapter 212, where Grimmjow points out Ichigo's GT firing limit and how it hurts him. It says nothing about bones or the bankai itself. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It says something of "body," not necessarily bones, but close enough. Ichigo never had a GT firing limit as far as I know, or it at least hadn't been mentioned at that point and wasn't touched on at all after that. I don't know what else you can attribute that to. StardustDragon 03:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

"You can only fire that two or three more times." That's what you call a limit. Ichigo was in pain trying to suppress his hollow, which was obvious to Grimmjow. He does not get slower, he is not overtly injured. Grimmjow only had visual clues to pick up on. He could not know that Ichigo's bones were broken. Same as Byakuya didn't, the inner hollow is the one who said it. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 03:34, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Ichigo suppressing the inner hollow never did physical harm to him (in itself, it DID cause him to get his ass whooped a few times). The battle didn't go on, and indeed ended right with that GT firing, so we don't know if his speed decreased or not. I fail to see why "bones" need to be explicitly mentioned, isn't "body" close enough? If Grimmjow pointing out that the technique hurts his body isn't enough to prove this, what is? StardustDragon 03:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it is not, because Grimmjow cannot tell for sure. Grimmjow only knows what he sees, which is Ichigo grabbing his eye and kneeling. That is what looks like injury. Furthermore, and this is the point you're completely failing to understand, Grimmjow was not talking about Ichigo's bankai, he was talking about the getsuga tensho. Understand that these two things are different. The getsuga tensho never injured Ichigo until this point, and it is what Grimmjow is commenting on. In closing, you will never be able to argue your point from the singular use of the word "body" in relation to the getsuga tensho. Nothing is mentioned of Ichigo's bankai in and of itself, so to claim that Grimmjow's line must somehow equate to a topic he never makes mention of is original research. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 03:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

This is gonna be a really messy list. Sorry in advance.

• We've already established in his article that Grimmjow has a knack for finding weak spots; it's likely this carries over to here.
• The getsuga tensho was so harmful to Ichigo in bankai. It was never harmful in shikai; Ichigo fired it a sh*tload in his fight with Byakuya without showing any visible stress.
• You still haven't answered: How else do you wish to interpret the word "body?" Is he saying the getsuga tensho hurts Ichigo's skin and gives him a rash? Or perhaps it causes his hair to fall out? Not seeing that.
• Wouldn't it be original research to arbitrarily claim that the word "body" is referring to any of the above things rather than the obvious answer?
• See point number 3.
• See point number 5.

SD on a school IP, out. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 14:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

All original rewsearch. You are still harping on the word "body" with zero proof. Get this straight: you cannot prove he meant bones, ever. End of story. He doesn't say bones, he doesn't say bankai, he doesn't mention speed. These three things add up to you wasting your time. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 14:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

How exactly is it original research to point out specific, established facts? The points I gave you are all taken straight from the manga; I have made up none of it. Point #1 is mentioned in Grimmjow's article, so it's not original research. Also, you can drop the condescending, sarcastic tone; it's getting on my nerves. Might I direct you to WP:COOL?

Read point number 3 and answer the question, by the way. I don't need you to repeat 'original research,' I want you to offer an explanation to what "body" could possibly be referring to other than "bones." Capisce?

Now, what if we added in the following blip: "This drawback has not been mentioned since its introduction and is assumed to have been overcome, although a similar effect is carried with the Getsuga Tenshou in Bankai through most of the Arrancar arc while Ichigo attempts to suppress his inner hollow. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 17:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

No, we're not adding that, because it, just like your previous argument, is original research. Ichigo's body wasn't harmed, it only looked like it because his hollow was rising. Grimmjow picks up on this and comments on it. That is the extent of the scene's meaning. There is no evidence for bone-breaking or bodily harm of any kind, and there is no amount of rationalization on your part that will change that fact. Let it go. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 20:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

How can you assume that Grimmjow was referring to the hollow taking over? The evidence for bodily harm is Grimmjow's own words and past experience. The hollow was taking over, yes; this point cannot be disputed. However, the hollow taking over in and of itself has never done any bodily harm to Ichigo, and Grimmjow's not stupid enough to think otherwise. Why would Grimmjow use the term "body" if the technique didn't hurt his body, or appear to? The hollow taking over is irrelevant; Ichigo simply grasped at his eye (211, p18), nothing more. I'd call WP:OBVIOUS in here as well, but I haven't read that in a while and don't know if it'd apply. StardustDragon 20:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

It wouldn't because Grimmjow does not specify any sort of harm. He only notes that it is harmful, and he says so because Ichigo is having trouble moving. I repeat, there is no evidence that it causes harm. There is only Grimmjow's one comment which you are bending over backward to twist out of context. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 20:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

So if we're in agreement that it causes Ichigo some form of harm, why not put that in with the GT firing limit? StardustDragon 17:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Read what I said again. The harm it causes is already specified, loud and clear. It causes his hollow to surface, nothing more. Three shots would have caused it to fully surface, and Grimmjow picked up on that, ignorant of what it meant or not. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 21:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

And what right do we have to assume Grimmjow was wrong on this one thing, when we already concede in his article that he has a feral cunning and is able to pick up on an opponent's weakness easily? "It causes his hollow to surface AND does him bodily harm, or at least according to Grimmjow." Try something to that effect on for size. I'm not twisting the word "body" out of context, don't even bother saying that again. I'm simply trying to have us recognize that "body" does not mean "inner hollow surfacing," it means "body." StardustDragon 01:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Will you let it go already? Your inability to grasp the context of the scene is beyond annoying. Ichigo fires the attack, his hollow surfaces, he comments on the firing limit, and Grimmjow makes a less-informed comment about the same thing. There's nothing else to it. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 03:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Penguin. For one thing, during the fight with Byakuya, Getsuga Tensho had nothing to do with causing Ichigo harm. Ichigo didn't use a single one during the entire fight until his hollow surfaced, but by then, his body was already past its limit. Secondly, Grimmjow never specifically states why Ichigo couldn't use the attack more than three times. Doing so for him is blatant original research. So, as far as I see it, nothing else should be inferred from Grimmjow's statement. King Zeal (talk) 12:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

You didn't even respond that time, you just summarized the scene. As for Zeal's post, I didn't say why Ichigo can't use the attack more than three additional times, I only wish to recognize what Grimmjow commented to be another effect of using it. I think we can all guess what would have happened if he had used it three times, but I'm not focusing on what would happen if he bypassed that limit, rather, what happens immediately after he used it. The fight with Byakuya is obsolete; he didn't use Getsuga Tensho at all until Hollow Ichigo is out, and Hollow Ichigo doesn't seem to recognize any form of bodily harm being dealt to him, I believe this is covered in his section of the article. To summarize what I'm trying to get across to you, Penguin, you're guilty of original research by stating that Grimmjow was referring to the hollow surfacing and only the hollow surfacing. What right do you have to assume he was wrong about this point? If he can see a form of bodily harm being caused by the getsuga tensho, then we have evidence of bodily harm being caused by the getsuga tensho. C'est fin.207.80.142.5 (talk) 14:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

First, I'll admit that I was wrong about one thing: according to the translation, Grimmjow does indeed say that Getsuga Tensho hurts Ichigo. However, he does not say that this has anything to do with Ichigo's bankai. So, comparing this statement to Byakuya's comments about the drawbacks of Ichigo's bankai are null. However, I do now advocate adding a blurb to the article about that, but only for that specific instance. There's no evidence that it's harmful to Ichigo every time he uses it, but we know that this was the case during the fight with Grimmjow specifically. King Zeal (talk) 15:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

For the record, Penguin was the one referencing the Byakuya fight, not me. What I'm trying to pound through Penguin's mind now is that the Getsuga harms Ichigo physically, at least in this instance. StardustDragon 22:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Unindent, and what I keep trying to tell you is that there is no proof to that effect. There is one word, one time, by one person who isn't Ichigo commenting about some vague harm when it is obvious that his hollow is what is being commented on. It's original research to say it actually harms him, because there is no proof to that effect. You're just harping on "body" to the exclusion of the context of the scene. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The word is the only evidence we have. One piece of evidence trumps no piece of evidence unless you're introducing your own "original research." Context of the scene is irrelevant. I know his hollow is surfacing. And in addition to that, if Grimmjow is to be trusted, it ADDITIONALLY harms his body. Evidence trumps your rationalizations. It's "obvious?" No. It's far from that; you're claiming he's referring to the hollow which is original research oh my god. Period. You even admitted that the GT harms Ichigo; to quote you: "The getsuga tensho never injured Ichigo until this point, and it is what Grimmjow is commenting on." I can only assume that you're playing the devil's advocate because you find it fun. Let it go, and let the three words be added to the article. StardustDragon 23:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

One word is irrelevant, and context is the only thing that is important. You're desperately trying to inflate the importance of the word body so your argument doesn't fall apart. Ichigo never says anything about it hurting him. The only comment he makes is about the hollow. Ichigo is a more reliable source than Grimmjow, who had no other reference point by which to judge Ichigo's behavior. You cannot prove harm, and Grimmjow's one word does not prove harm. The three words aren't getting added because they're wrong. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Repeating myself because you're not even responding anymore, you're just calling out the same, tired phrase "you're stretching one word out of context, blah blah." I know his hollow is surfacing. And in addition to that, if Grimmjow is to be trusted, it ADDITIONALLY harms his body. Evidence trumps your rationalizations. It's "obvious?" No. It's far from that; you're claiming he's referring to the hollow which is original research oh my god. Period. You even admitted that the GT harms Ichigo; to quote you: "The getsuga tensho never injured Ichigo until this point, and it is what Grimmjow is commenting on."StardustDragon 23:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

And I will repeat myself because you refuse to listen: this mindless tirade about one word being an entire novel about Ichigo's condition is stupid. If you would bother to actually read the entire couple of chapters, you would easily see that they're referring to the same thing. Instead, you choose to ignore the obvious and debate at length about one word in one panel. Find something else to support your opinion or give it up. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Evidence trumps your rationalizations. The word "body" is more evidence than what you have: nothing but a bunch of original research. Just because you inferred that it meant the hollow was taking over does not mean that this is the extent of the scene's meaning. The word "body" is the word "body." I am not making a novel about it, I am simply trying to pound its meaning through your skull. Read it, define it, understand it: it all adds up to you wasting your time and refusing to give in to a point that is clearly valid. You're as much at fault as I am for making a debate about this; you're the one that refuses to accept that you were wrong. Checkmate, dude. StardustDragon 23:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are making a novel about it. You are taking one word by Grimmjow and expanding it to say that Ichigo might as well be dying or some equally nonsensical rationalization. Ichgio makes no mention of bodily harm. He is a more reliable source. Grimmjow is neither part of Ichigo nor aware of Ichigo's infirmities. He is an outside and uniformed observer, which his comment reflects. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 00:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm done replying at this point, because this nonsense has to stop. My patience is gone and neither you nor I are going to change our opinins on this matter. If you want to continue discussion, find something else to support your point, because the single use of the word body, which is neither mentioned by Ichigo himself or any other character, will never be an acceptable source. It will ojnly be you twisting one scene out of context to satisfy this ridiculous obsession. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 00:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

When did I say "might as well be dying" or any of that? Ichigo makes no mention of bodily harm, but he doesn't deny its presence, and thus that point isn't valid. "Body" means "bodily harm," which is hardly a novel. Unless Ichigo specifically says that he did not recieve bodily harm, you're grasping at straws. Stop acting like your opinion is superior to mine; if you look at the facts, my theory is supported by evidence and yours is not. Your inability to accept defeat annoys me, quite frankly, and someone else voiced his agreement with mentioning "bodily harm." I'm changing it and that's that, if you want to make an edit war out of it be my guest.StardustDragon 00:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

When Grimmjow says that he has a firing limit, he's referring the Ichigo using the BLACK Getsuga Tenshou, a power that is inherently rooted into his inner hollow. He has a limited amount of uses before his hollow's influence became too strong and he donned the mask involuntarily. That is the extent of the harm. It does not harm him physically. By harm, Grimmjow meant something of the lines of "inconvenience". And the reason his bankai caused him "harm" during his fight with Byakuya was because of his inexperience in wielding it; it no longer inconveniences him by the time he's fighting the arrancar. This argument is retarded. --165.236.69.139 (talk) 22:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

You're pretty late, we already resolved to mention just that under the BLACK Getsuga Tenshou. Also, I don't see how you can define Grimmjow's use of words as "inconvenience" arbitrarily. See the change we put into the article, then stop bringing up age-old issues. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 19:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If four days is age-old to you, and also cannot see how I define my speech, then I suggest you restart school at the Freshman level of high school. Good day.--76.25.254.31 (talk) 02:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

BODILY HARM = INCONVENIENCE AMIRITE. It's age-old if it's already been resolved. Bye! StardustDragon 16:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

wow sry 4 tryng 2 help. Douchebag. Get out of the basement. By the way, I speak Japanese, faghag, so I would know exactly what Grimmjow is saying BECAUSE I CAN READ IN THE LANGUAGE IT WAS WRITTEN IN. YOU HAVE NOTHING ON ME, LITTLE SCANLATION READER. HAHA AMIRITE? --76.25.254.31 (talk) 20:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Enough yelling now. Muramasa, it's not over just because I gave up trying to fight you. You're the one who decided to edit war to get your way, which I wasn't willing to put up with. Ergo, it isn't resolved. You just annoyed the other side into submission. 76.25.254.31, post a translation for us of the exact Japanese, preferably with the kanji, instead of taking up a shouting match. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 20:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't shouting, just trolling to annoy him. I will put up an accurate translation as soon as I get my hands on a hard copy of the manga chapter. It shouldn't take too long. --76.25.254.31 (talk) 20:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well either way, hard facts speak louder than trolling, so thank you for your efforts. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 21:56, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, um let me start out by saying that was interesting to read. Second, yes, this is late, so dont jump on me. I spent a good while reading this "discussion", and I felt the need to comment because I dont think the outcome is satisfactory. This is what happened in that scene: Ichigo fires GT at Grimmjow, Ichigo comments to himself that he could only do it 2 or 3 more times untill the hollow takes over, Grimmjow sees Ichigo holding his face and struggling(while he is struggling, it is to supress the hollow), Grimmjow sees this as GT harming Ichigo, Grimmjow then says that GT hurts Ichigo's body and he could only do it 2 or 3 more times. If Ichigo had said that it hurts him it could be included in the article, but for you to infer that it physically hurts Ichigo from Grimmjow's "instincts" and his uninformed interpretation of the situation is original research. Ichigo himself explained the 2 or 3 shot limit as having the consequence of his hollow taking over, nothing about hurting him. Grimmjow had no knowledge of Ichigo's inner hollow so when he saw Ichigo concentrating on the hollow he thought he was in pain. The evidence supports there being no bodily harm to Ichigo. HoBoSlayerX (talk) 07:26, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

"And Grimmjow suggests that it causes a level of bodily harm as well" Where does it say in that little blip that he was definitively hurt? We are not "inferring" that it physically harms him, we are saying that Grimmjow "infers" that it physically harms them. Christ. StardustDragon 15:03, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, nice chain of personal attacks, I had a nice giggle at the "faghag" one.StardustDragon 15:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Why does it just have to be on the page? It is not true. The fact that it is inferred by anyone makes it original research. NOWHERE does it say in the series that it hurt Ichigo, other than Grimmjow guessing. HoBoSlayerX (talk) 15:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That's the thing, we are not "inferring" anything. We are only stating that Grimmjow suggests something, which is by no means false. Your argument would apply if we were saying "the attack hurts him," but we are not. We are saying that for whatever reason, Grimmjow suggested that it hurt him. To be honest the only reason I'm still fighting about this is out of pure stubbornness, I've put a lot of time and effort into getting that blip on this page, and it would just be a waste to let it go now. StardustDragon 22:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

But if we're getting into the "Nowhere else is (x) stated" game, "nowhere else" is it stated that Ichigo's bankai broke his bones at first, but we have that in the article. "Nowhere else" is it stated that Ichigo's hollow manifests to protect him at near death experiences, but that's there also. StardustDragon 22:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That's not going to work. Grimmjow knows no better, and Ichigo's own words contradict his assessment. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 22:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

They don't contradict the assessment. Why does one have to be true and the other false? StardustDragon 22:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Because one in made in ignorance, the other is not. What if I said your name was Stardust? It's not, obviously, but you constantly sign with it. Without further investigation, I would know no better. Grimmjow can only comment on what he has observed. He knows no better. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 22:45, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, don't start that 3RR baiting shit, or I'll just report you instead of playing along. I'm not in the mood for games. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 22:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

So I could definitively say in that situation that "Penguin said my name is Stardust." That's what we're saying here. You just don't seem to understand that no matter how much you prove that Grimmjow cannot be sure, or that Grimmjow is wrong, or whatever, it just doesn't matter, because the blip you so vehemently oppose the addition of states that "Grimmjow says (x)." Not "(x) is true," but that "Grimmjow says (x)." To be honest, I'm not going to edit war over this, looking at the rest of the discussion there's a similar situation going on with a blip about Kenpachi's defeat or some shit that you're already dealing with. StardustDragon 23:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That's over and done, and you commented on it too. And I'm not the only one opposing your line about Grimmjow. So what if he said it? Aizen said Urahara never used the Hogyoku, and he was wrong. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

No no, I'm not saying it goes in the article BECAUSE he says it, but the line "Grimmjow suggests" or "says" it should, because after all, he did say it, yeah? StardustDragon 23:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

And so what if he says it? If we included all the half-baked speculation characters think up this article would be littered with crap. All that matters is the facts. Grimmjow's line is a guess. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

"claims to be the manifestation of Ichigo's instinctive lust for battle and the next kill." "The hollow claims that it manifests itself to protect Ichigo during near death moments because it is connected to Ichigo, hence Ichigo's death would also be his." "The arrancar Ulquiorra has claimed that Ichigo's spiritual power at its peak is even greater than his own, but that it fluctuates wildly when he is in conflict with his inner hollow" You mean like these? StardustDragon 23:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

You can try to twist statements all you like, it's not going to make your point valid. The hollow is making a claim about itself, and Ulquiorra is likewise making a claim in relation to himself. Grimmjow's line is entirely speculation based on observable behavior. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:24, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Only examples. What about the line in Ulquiorra's article that references where Grimmjow says that Ulquiorra always punches opponents in the same location as his hollow hole, or something to that effect? That's observable behavior, identified by another character, and still there. StardustDragon 23:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

And it is only an observation of his behavior. It doesn't make any assumptions as to whether or not he does it on purpose, and it doesn't have any contradiction. Ichigo has stated quite clearly what his problem was, but you insist on ignoring him. No matter how many random statements you pick out, this simple fact is what makes it different. Ichigo knows what's wrong with him, Grimmjow does not. There is no reason to include his speculation when we are given the facts by an authoritative source. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:32, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, but why does Ichigo have to be right and Grimmjow wrong? The statements in themselves don't contradict each other; the move could do both. That's my last ace in the hole; if this was a Phoenix Wright case the "cornered" theme would be playing and I'd have my "defeated" sprite on. StardustDragon 23:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Never played that. Ichigo is right because he knows. Grimmjow is wrong because he doesn't. Even if we were to assume Grimmjow's guess was in some way accurate, which we cannot do, it doesn't change the fact that the main issue is the hollow. Grimmjow's speculation is an unnecessary tangent, nothing more. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 23:54, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

That's what I was looking for. Discussion over. Jesus Christ I hung on for long on this one... Archiving, if no other objections. StardustDragon 23:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I had to scroll four times to reach the bottom of this crap. If you two have resolved it could a bloody delete be in order? --Licourtrix (talk) 05:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Some improvements regarding the hollow powers section

Just wondering if we should add a bit regarding Ichigo's mask's cosmetic changes that occur when he dons the mask during his final fight with Grimmjow. Also, I think the picture depicting his mask should be changed as there are better ones out there now that include his black eyes. Also, one last thing, should something be added to inform readers of the animal-like noise that accompany his attacks when he's wearing the mask in the anime? None of the things are pressing matters, just though it would be more informative for people browsing the article. --165.236.69.139 (talk) 22:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I think getting a better picture is a great idea - make sure that you put in the right licensing stuff, though, or else it'll be tagged for speedy deletion. Were there cosmetic changes in the manga? I never noticed. I think the changes in the mask and noise aren't notable, though. I think we should leave those out. Might want to wait for others' opinions, though. Love, IceUnshattered (talk) 20:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Ichigo makes the same noise as a human when attacking, its just amplified/distorted by the hollow powers when donning the mask.--74.131.48.213 (talk) 14:22, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

A separate section for the Hollow?

Do you think this article should have a separate section specifically dealing with Ichigo's inner hollow (henceforth refered to as "Shirosaki" as many fans do)? He's important enough to be considered as a protagonist, and the section "Hollow powers" don't give enough information on him at all. For example, while it does mention (although somewhat indirectly) that Shirosaki intends to take over Ichigo and his powers. And it gives no information on what happens when he takes over Ichigo's body and how Ichigo's appearance changes. (For example, the change of his voice and the eye color becoming black, and half a mask appearing on his face, and that his lunacy is upgraded when he assumes control over Ichigo.) I don't want to write everything the article doesn't mention, so I'll finish the point. Does anybody else think that Shirosaki deserves a separate section? (Not a separate article, I think, but still, He's important enough for a separate section in the article for Ichigo.)

Starshade17 (talk) 13:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

We have a section about the hollow. All that stuff is mentioned. StardustDragon 23:15, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Fight with Zaraki Kenpachi

For there to be a winner in a fight requires someone actually winning. In a boxing match if both competitors hit each other with a haymaker, both fall, and get counted out, is one the winner? In answer to the question posed Zaraki says Ichigo won because as far as Zaraki is concerned a draw is the same thing as a loss for him. Read a little into the character. And again like I said if you want to be hyper-technical Zaraki won the fight as last-man standing. Ichigo went down, then Zaraki collapsed from his own injuries. (Hides from Ichigo fan-boys) When Ichigo beat Ikkaku, Ichigo was left standing, Ikkaku wasn't. The same when he beat Renji. Byakuya forfeited their match after his sword broke but both were still standing. In the fight with Zaraki both hit each other, Ichigo fell, then Zaraki fell several seconds later. If you don't have a winner in a fight, its a draw. And if you want to be a smart-ass, if Ichigo won the fight why did he apologize to everyone before he fell?

Want to argue this in Kendo terms? Boxing terms? Street-fighting terms? How about sumo terms? The fight was a draw, they even speak to that effect in the review episodes played at the end of the Soul Society arc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.28.225.23 (talk) 21:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Nowhere in the article does it say Ichigo won. It says he defeated Zaraki, which you cannot argue against. Your attempts to keep Zaraki from being dealt a loss are pointless. ~SnapperTo 23:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Except for the fact he didnt lose, neither did Ichigo thats why its called a draw. In order to defeat an opponent you have to win a fight. The article on Kenpachi explains it best as both fell and both admitted defeat. If you have no winner in a contest, its a draw. What part of that is too complicated to understand?

Kenpachi admitted defeat, that's enough. There's no reason to call their duel as a draw when it's insignificant in the larger picture. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 01:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Which I wouldn't argue if Ichigo didn't admit defeat as well. That makes it a draw. I don't get what the progression is being lost here. And no its not insignificant in the larger picture because it defines the character of the Shinigami, and the status of the Captains given that Ichigo has never actually beaten one. He had a draw with Kenpachi Zaraki, and won against Byakuya only because the latter forfeited. "And fought to a draw with" it seems foolish to me that people are finding these six words to be overly-complicated.

He defeated Kenpachi. He may not have "won" in the strictest sense, but he did defeat him. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C)

You can say he beat him all you want, doesn't make it true. If a fight has no winner, it is a draw. Its not "well he did this" or "this happened" if there is no winner it is a draw plain and simple. Explain to me in what sense he defeated Kenpachi? Was it when he said "I'm sorry everyone" and fell over? Was it when Yuroichi carried him off the field? I suppose you could argue that he defeated Kenpachi because he managed to keep Kenpachi from killing him. But by that same token you could say Kenpachi defeated him bcause Kenpachi prevented him from attainting his goal of continuing on to the white tower. So I'll say it again when there is no winner it is a draw, you have to win a fight in order for someone to be defeated. And no matter how you Ichigo fan boys try to spin it, the fight was a draw. What I want to know is why does everyone have such a problem with pointing out that a fight in a fictional show was a draw? Did I piss off the Ichigo fanclub? I've edited articles on over a dozen bleach characters including Kenpachi and Byakuya where I stated the same as I already have and no one pitched a fit there.

And hey Penguin Boy don't send me messages about edit wars when you're doing the same thing. If you don't like it then YOU seek arbitration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.28.225.23 (talk) 02:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It was when Kenpachi passed out and told Yachiru "I lost" StardustDragon 14:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, please carefully watch the show and read the manga before starting up a storm up in the discussion form. -71.190.180.67 (talk) 18:59, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

It was a draw becuase Ichigo dropped before Zaraki but Zaraki couldn't move anymore and his blade broke right before he fell, since neither one could do anything to hurt the other it should be classified as a draw.--Amp99 (talk) 17:13, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't speculate about this. From reading the manga, Ichigo never stated whether he actually considered this a win or a loss ("I'm sorry everyone" isn't exactly an admission of defeat). Kenpachi considered it a loss. Yachiru said that Kenpachi won (although Kenpachi argued to the contrary). Yoruichi called their fight a "mutual defeat".

The bottom line is that how you feel about it is a matter of perspective. King Zeal (talk) 19:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Yoruichi called it a "mutual defeat," yeah? So that would mean that Ichigo DID "defeat" Ken-chan, and vice versa? Conversation over. StardustDragon 02:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Improvement

So... now we've reached the improvement stage. So then, besides removing plot, what suggestions are there? And yes, anime articles can survive without plot, look at the Naruto articles, especially Naruto Uzumaki. His is a well-written character article, and by-far the best anime character article. He even has a chance of making FA-Class if the out-of-universe tone is removed, is made a little less crufty, out-of-universe info is added, and more references are added. None of the Bleach articles, besides the series itself, will ever get past B-Class at this point, especially with Godzilla-sized plot articles like Ichigo's. So plot must be removed if Bleach is to be taken seriously. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think Naruto is really any better written than this page as far as the real content and informativeness goes, it's just arranged differently.

Putting that aside for a second though, there actually is a significant amount of improvement that can be done with respect to Bleach's out of universe content now, because the series has been running on US TV long enough (and the recent DVD releases) that a number of English language reviews now exist. In other words, critical reception sections all around, especially in the main article (which could then even have a shot at FA), and in the List of Bleach Agent of the Shinigami arc episodes (which needs them to maintain its FL status). --tjstrf talk 19:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

personally i think we need to remove some of the spoilers, i mean i was reading it the other day er today an i noticed that it told me a lot about what happens in the anime. I mean im not entirely caught up in bleach and some thing here ruined it for me XP

so i think we should more be basing it on the character, not saying then in chapter 15 he bla bla bla Xxem0kittyxx (talk) 21:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't no if this is the right section, but has anyone noticed how (before Orihime came along with her powers) despite being the son of a doctor he dosen't treat Rukia's injuries (Gigia related) for example, in episode five wen those leaches exploded she was CLEARLY injured, there was blood running down her face and everything, the fact that in episodes 2-15 She does occasionally get injured, but then she has no sighn of injury or treatment later really bugs me! I no she didn't go to Urahara because (even if he could use Kido) it has been pointed out in the early Bleach episodes that he is a pervert, he even suggested looking over one of her injuries (or something very simaler that would cause the removal of her clothes) and she very poilitly but very harshly said "No! That's quite alright thank you!!" note that he was grinning from ear to ear, I'm putting this under Ichigo because it is his fault! I have never seen him treat her, or even mention it! And I no that he wouldn't let his goofball dad touch her with a ten foot poll! Much less treat her or see her in that condition! It annoys me to no end! Even though they were no were near as close then as they are now, treating her injuries is justifiable, an if she got upset with the idea he could merely explain how shy he is, (although most injuries that she sustained at that point in the series were on her arms and legs, occasianly her face or head too) in short, Ichigo should make a public announcement during one of the preveiws on exactly HOW those inguries just disapeared! Or better yet show us! -CaptinAsagi —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinAsagi (talk • contribs) 19:48, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The spelling Errors in that alone made me want to stop reading, first off treating a gigai and a real human probably aren't even the same, as a gigai is still made of spirit particles. Rukia has extensive healing abilities with kido so its safe to say she treats her own injuries, it might insult her for Ichigo to use the mortal method of treating wounds when a kido spell could do it easily. This is a area for real discussion, not your fan-rambling.

Remove spoilers!? No way! I love spoilers! I have to rey on watching subtitled episodes on youtube because they aren't putting out the English dubbed version for a wile, I need these spoilers!! By the way, wen do they update here? -CaptinAsagi —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinAsagi (talk • contribs) 19:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Why do spoilers? First it ruins the overall usefulness of the article, and second it kills the concept of watching the anime to get the storyline instead of relying on tidbits of spoilers that may or may not be even true. I for one would want to take out as much detail to the plotline that isn't related to Ichigo as much as possible. 24.4.95.224 (talk) 04:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it does not ruin the usefulness of the article. Wikipedia is not a spoiler-free zone, and part of providing encyclopedic coverage is covering the ENTIRE topic, which includes the entire plot, not just the "non-spoiler" plots. See WP:SPOILER. Removing spoilers from articles is considered vandalism and will only get you blocked. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 04:39, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Hollow Ichigo's name..

According to what's written here:

Chapter 220 depicts it as a mirror writing of Ichigo's name...

So, if its written as Kurosaki Ichigo in the original manga, backwards would be: Ogihci Ikasoruk. Now, I added this before, and it got rejected. Why? Isn't that cover page a good enough source? I've seen many call him "Shirosaki" since H.Ichigo is white, now can someone help me out on this please?RedEyesMetal 19:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Ichigo's hollow doesn't have a name. He even said it himself.--Time2shyne 23:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

In addition to what Time2shyne said, even if we used chapter 220's example, it's not even Ogichi Ikasoruk, it's just mirrored text. The mirrored version of 'bxd' is not 'dxb', it's 'bxd'. I wanted to give an example which would produce gibberish, as it does in the case of Ichigo Kurosaki, but haven't found the characters. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 23:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

In most of the Bleach games, the kanji is written the same as Ichigos', but usually has a different outline like red or black I think.--Hanaichi 12:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

A little tidbit I've noticed in Heat the Soul 4: Hollow Ichigo's name is written with the same exact kanji as Ichigo's and in the same exact order, though the kanji themselves are flipped (as well as being inverted in colour). // DecaimientoPoético 14:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Quote H. Ichigo: "I ain't got a name!" Discussion over. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 04:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC) Hollow Ichigo also said that HE IS Zangetsu.--Licourtrix (talk) 19:56, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Hollow Ichigo absorbing Zangetsu into himself is completely different from being named Zangetsu.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 20:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

When, precisely, did Hichigo claim he'd absorbed Zangetsu's spirit? 71.230.221.73 (talk) 04:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Chapter 218. Though I don't think "absorb" is the best choice of words. ~SnapperTo 04:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps "replace?" 207.80.142.5 (talk) 18:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I think its more of that the spirit of Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo are the same or atleast inexorably linked. If Ichigo fails to exist, then so does zangetsu and if zangetsu or Ichigo doesn't exist there can't be a hollow representation of Ichigo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.131.48.213 (talk) 14:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, Zangetsu and H. Ichigo were two sides of the same soul (the soul of the Zanpaktou). The original idea was that the appearance of H. Ichigo was due to his dominance over Zangetsu, thus becoming the visible side of the soul of the Zanpaktou, allowing him to interact with Ichigo. The only question left to be answered is whether H. Ichigo or Zangetsu is in control, since Ichigo defeated H. Ichigo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chewy0212 (talk • contribs) 03:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Zangetsu won't isappear if Ichigo dies. We've seen on more than one occasion that the death of a Soul Reaper does not necessarily mean the destruction of their Soul Slayer. Tosen uses a Soul Slayer that isn't his, and in one of the movies, the villain dies and leaves behind his sword as well.King Zeal (talk) 12:33, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the correct name should be Ichiko Kurosaki, I have tested on the Microsoft Japanese IME with resulting kanji as 黒崎一戸(くろさき いちこ), however when I type in Ichigo, the corresponding kanji is 一期(いちご), thus I think the correct name should be Ichiko. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.155.208.195 (talk) 02:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

This is too stupid to warrant a response. StardustDragon 18:42, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't two sides of the same soul also mean they are two sides of Ichigo's soul? From what I've seen the circumstances for a soul reapers sword to remain after their death has to be pretty outside the norm, we don't know how Kaname's sword's previous owner died, but its possible that the sword and Kaname had an agreement before that occured anyway. Also in the OVA in which the sword was left behind, the guy had fused with his sword...which in itself is a singular occurence that damaged both the Soul Reaper and his sword in a way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Licourtrix (talk • contribs) 00:19, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Should someone add that Hollow Ichigo is also affectionately called "Shirosaki" by fans, as "Kuro" means black, and "Shiro" means white (i.e. Ichigo is black and Hollow Ichigo is white)? 24.4.95.224 (talk) 22:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Key word there being "by fans" which means trivia and irrelevant unless that has been significantly covered in reliable sources. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 00:46, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Shinigami

I haven't watched Bleach for very long, but I thought they were called Soul Reapers not Shinigami as the first paragraph suggests. I thought Shinigami was the name for creatures like Ryuk in Death Note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.65.164.167 (talk) 06:50, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

A shinigami is any death deity. It's not just in Death Note.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 17:22, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Shinigami means Death God in Japanese, the Vis translation is Soul Reaper.Ultimaterasengan (talk) 21:53, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

That's also the translation Tite Kubo gave instead of Death God. He wanted it to translate to Soul Reaper. --Cronodude360 (talk) 21:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

They're referred to as Shinigami in the Japanese version of Bleach, 67.65.164.167, the dub and (I think) the official Manga translation use "Soul Reaper". :) 82.23.90.51 (talk) 22:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, should we close this section?--75.104.160.58 (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

No one has responded to this topic since July. I'd say it's closed without the need to say that it is.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 03:24, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Any Bount Information?

I know that the Bount Arc is in the Anime only and is not considered to be one of the better arcs, but I figured Ichigo should have something in about his role in it in his plot summary. All the other characters do. Any ideas? Fenrir-of-the-Shadows (talk) 23:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Ichigo's a main character, and hence to be concise the Bount details were omitted. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C)

Alright. That makes sense, but I was also pointing out that other main characters have something in their plot summaries too. I guess that just needs to be worked out. Fenrir-of-the-Shadows (talk) 02:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The plot synopsis for many of the other characters is simply too long. Parring it down to Ichigo's length would probably give the Bount similar coverage (except maybe Uryū). ~SnapperTo 03:08, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

A question about the bount arc, do you think what happened when Ichigo was stabbed with zangetsu in the caves happens to all Soul Reapers attacked with thier own sword, or perhaps just Ichigo?--Licourtrix (talk) 14:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Probably only Ichigo, since Mayuri Kurotsuchi does that to activate a completely different effect 207.80.142.5 (talk) 18:53, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Synopsis

It doesn't seem like the synopsis of Ichigo is really up to date. Can someone elaborate? --Skeletawn (talk) 02:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

What would you add? He hasn't been seen in three months (chapter 318), and the section reflects what he was last seen doing. ~SnapperTo 02:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh. I don't read the manga, so I didn't know. --75.104.160.36 (talk) 01:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, now he has been seen for over a month. I think we can update the plot some. There's one important major plot point. Ichigo is defeated easily and stabbed in the heart but comes back to life in an alternate, much stronger Hollow form. We need to update this section with as much new information about this new form as possible. Occamsrazorwit (talk) 23:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

No, we don't. This isn't a "news" site and chapter by chapter updates are inappropriate, as is "as much new information" as possible. This is a summary, not a fansite nor Bleach guide. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 23:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I think a whole new transformation is rather notable, personally, and should be mentioned in a 'summary'. Frequen-Z (talk) 20:10, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It would probably be appropriate to wait for more information on the form and how it came to be. Saying Ichigo died and then revived himself as a hollow, or some other interpretation, could be a point of contention until Kubo spells it out for us. Besides, he is still "engaging [Ulquiorra] in combat", so the article isn't necessarily behind the times. ~SnapperTo 21:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Exactly...until its over, better to wait for the how/why, and also to see if this is a one-time thing or not. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 22:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Well since Ichigo has now defeated Ulquiorra or atleast he died, we should update the Synopsis, plus like AnmaFinotera said, this isn't a fansite or something so we don't need to put down why Ichigo transformed, just that he did during the fight.(user talk: Bleach28jak3)13:56, 6 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bleach28jak3 (talk • contribs)

Bankai and hollow images

We are currently using three images in abilities. Although they have an important use they bother a bit the paragraphs. Does anybody know of a image of Ichigo in bankai state while having the hollow mask? I suppose in the anime there are some of those images like in the fights against Grimmjow. That would help the section. Regards.Tintor2 (talk) 16:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

His fights in Hueco Mundo show him with both ([1], [2], [3]. Alternatively you could try an image with Zangetsu and hollow Ichigo (which I can't find a good image of [chapters 110-112]). ~SnapperTo 22:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

i noticed the article says that hollow ichigo has yellow eyes, and reversed kimono and sword. but in the manga, he is shown with white/grey eyes. i think its only when ichigo is using his hollow form is when he has yellow eyes, but not when you see his actual inner hollow.(Haseo445 (talk) 17:26, 5 January 2009 (UTC))

White/grey eyes... because... the manga is in black and white. See the anime and you'll see the yellow. :Starshade17 (talk) 16:18, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

NO, that's not what i meant, in bleach manga volume 25 cover (i think), they show hollow ichigo technically in color, he was all white with some shadowing and with a blue tongue and white/Grey eyes. Just like how Gin has green eyes in the manga but its blood red in the anime. In the manga, hollow ichigo that's inside Ichigo shown with Grey eyes, but while ichigo is using his hollow mask, Orihime mentions that he has yellow eyes. So like i said before, maybe we should mention that hollow ichigo has Grey eyes but ichigo in his visored form has yellow eyes.(Haseo445 (talk) 16:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC))

In-universe?

Is this article written mainly in in-universe style? Give me your opinions. Expo377 (talk) 07:48, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Basically, thats what the other articles sound like to me —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.249.176.77 (talk) 15:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Ok, added a little something to the article then. Expo377 (talk) 07:52, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

An answer by an anon user does not say the article is written this way. Why do you say its written this way? Have you read some parts that are in that style?Tintor2 (talk) 16:49, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Never mind, the stuff is minor anyway; I'm sorry I put it in there in the first place. Expo377 (talk) 03:55, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

This is Ridiculous

I'm just describing the form. How is it original research? I didn't say it IS a hollow form, I only stated that it LOOKS like a hollow. Sure, I said that it is a new FORM, but that's not original research; that's what it seems. However, if you guys disagree that it is NOT a new form, I'll just change it so that it says "...yet-undefined form". Let me give you an example from Ulquiorra Schiffer.

"...and his arrancar uniform appears more form fitting at the top, becoming robe-like towards the bottom."

Here is what I put.

"...eventually defeating him with an as-of-yet undefined new form; this form looks like a hollow"

If the latter is original research, isn't the Ulquiorra part original research as well? Also...

"...Ulquiorra seems unfamiliar with the technique when he uses it in his second release state, unexpectedly missing Ichigo with his first one, however, to compensate, he can produce more should his first miss the target."

How do we know that Ulquiorra "seems" unfamiliar with the technique? What if he was acting? Isn't this original research? Etc. etc.

I hope you see my point. Is describing a(n) object/person/place original research? Seriously.

As a side-note, AnmaFinotera, I wasn't given one WP:OR; you put that message in my talk at around the same time you reverted my edit. Expo377 (talk) 03:52, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

You were given it in the first revert, just without the link. This topic has already been discussed above. Additional reason: this is not a news site, nor the place for chapter by chapter updates. And yes, it is original research because you are basically implying that the form is a hollow. And other bad writing in other articles is not a valid reason to do the same here. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 03:55, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think typing "rv; not confirmed" for the edit summary is enough to infer that you told me I was using "original research." Also, describing characteristics is being similar to a news site? I'm not describing the whole fight, just the transformation; that's hardly a chapter by chapter update. Anyways, I'm not going to put "looks like a hollow" if you truly insist. However, I'm going to describe its characteristics somewhat in the same fashion as Ulquiorra's transformations were described. That should not be a problem, right? Expo377 (talk) 06:06, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

No...not News refers to doing "up to the minute" updates, including chapter by chapter stuff. And no, neither is a good description. Again, just because another page has bad writing, you don't use it as an excuse to repeat it here. Leave it alone. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 13:25, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Guys, Ichigo himself says that was his Hollow form, so... it was his Hollow form. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 21:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

We already talk about his inner hollow forms, that's enough. 207.80.142.5 (talk)

It's clearly an Arrancar form from what I can see, it's completely different to his Hollow form. In any case, we should wait for official confirmation on exactly what it is before adding any related info. Admeister200x (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:41, 27 April 2009 (UTC).

Arrancar, or Vasto Lorde? Ichi's new Hollow form's mask isn't broken, like all arrancars' masks are. We'll have to wait and see what Tite Kubo has planned for it (if anything). Who knows? Ichigo could go back to using his old mask the next time he uses his Visored form, or use his new one, or duke it out with his inner Hollow again. We need to wait and see. 142.26.194.190 (talk) 01:17, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Ichigos new form is something that hasnt been seen yet. since he is neither dead nor a hollow it cant be described and therefore shouldnt be put in until kubo elaborates. also when ichigo uses his visored mask, rukia says it looked different then normal. just something for future reference Diablo11d (talk) 03:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Obviously Ichigo's Hollow mask looks different. What she said was that she had heard the markings on the mask were slowly changing (going from a few black stripes on the right side to the entire right side of his mask being black with thin white stripes), but that the new mask had an entirely different set of markings (two red lines running over his eyes and down the sides of his mask). 142.26.194.190 (talk) 16:43, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Hollow ichigo

i believe we should mention hollow ichigo in here in a separate section than what forms ichigo has. it seems hollow ichigo has a complete different personality than ichigo, and knows how to use ichigo's zanpaktuo better. discuss.DeathBerry talk 15:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

That would make it more in-universe the article. It is already mentioned in abilities.Tintor2 (talk) 15:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if the name appeared in the Japanese version, but the new dubbed episode calls the Hollow Ichigo "Kamen" (Mask, in Japanese). Can we add this?Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 05:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I think we need a bit more confirmation on something like this. 'It' even having a name has been debatable after all. He says he has no name, then Kubo puts his 'name' as a mirror reverse of Ichi's and now this. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

You forgot to mention during its fight with Ichigo for control of his body it tells him "I am Zangetsu!" at least twice. 142.26.194.190 (talk) 01:19, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Even if the new episode lists his name as "Kamen" with the story being filler and all, it can't be considered as canon nor authoritative. RPating (talk) 07:12, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of Hollow Ichigo, would it be prudent to assume his so-called "new" Hollow transformation is his resurrección? After all, if Kaname Tosen can use resurrección in his viazad form, who's to say the other viazard can't. And when in the new episode does it address his inner Hollow as "Kamen"? His inner Hollow doesn't even appear in the episode.142.26.194.190 (talk) 21:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Ichigo's transformation was never called Resurrecion so adding to it to this article would be original research.Tintor2 (talk) 22:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

True, but Ichigo's inner hollow was never referred to as "Kamen" in the latest episode of the animen either, so that's original research as well. 142.26.194.190 (talk) 16:33, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Never heard that hollow was named so yes, any addition about that has to be removed.Tintor2 (talk) 16:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The being known commonly as Hollow Ichigo, is part of the bulk of Ichigo's spirit energy personified. As of the part of it being known as Zangetsu; the being that is the main part of the bulk that is being personified seems to be the one identified as zangetsu, excluding the times when they both are shown; when they are both in appearance the one in dominance is called zangetsu while the other has no name, such as when ichigo is fighting 11th Squad Captain Kempachi and ends up fighting the (at the time nameless) "Hollow Ichigo". —Preceding unsigned comment added by U2dead (talk • contribs) 03:25, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The only time Hollow Ichigo has been seen side-by-side with Zangetsu is when the latter summons it to train Ichigo. During his Visored training, the hollow had become strong enough to subsume "old man" Zangetsu and manifest instead of him. Despite both entities being two sides of the same coin, there is no indication that they have the same name. We should just stick to calling it "Ichigo's inner hollow" for now. 75.157.120.15 (talk) 18:57, 1 July 2010 (UTC)