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Princess of Wales

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Just a minor flaw, but if the article Princess of Wales is correct, Liotard cannot have painted the Princess of Wales in 1753, as there was no one bearing that title at that time. 85.181.115.80 12:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC) MO[reply]

Assessment comment

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The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Jean-Étienne Liotard/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

i think this page was really GOOD

Last edited at 21:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 19:42, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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Precisions on nationality

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Jean-Etienne Liotard was born, and died, in the Republic of Geneva (1541-1798 and 1813-1815). (The Republic of Geneva was briefly annexed by France (1798-1813) and became the capital city of the département du Léman). In 1815 Geneva joined the Swiss Confederacy. Before 1815, a Genevan was either … Genevan or, very briefly, French.Sapphorain (talk) 23:09, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He is sometimes referred to as « Swiss » for convenience, but this could in no way refer to his nationality, as « a deceased person can neither acquire nor lose the Swiss nationality after death: OFJ, article 2.2.2. Sapphorain (talk) 13:57, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As several editors have told you, RS do not regard "Genevan" as a nationality, however much you disagree with them. Johnbod (talk) 15:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
However much you disagree with historical facts, they cannot be modified. Sapphorain (talk) 18:27, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide some reliable sources that describe the nationality of Liotard as "Genevan". Preferably in English, as this is the English language Wikipedia. A 2008 or 2011 document on still born children is entirely irrelevant to this discussion, which is about an 18th century artist. 213.205.240.200 (talk) 21:38, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This document is not irrelevant at all. It concerns primarily still born children, true, but it is released by the Department of Justice of the Swiss confederation, and its article 2.2.2 is applicable to any person. It follows from it that an individual cannot acquire the Swiss citizenship after his/her death, and thus that Jean-Etienne Liotard was not and will never be Swiss. He was born and died in the Republic of Geneva (do you need a source for that?), and thus was a Genevan. Sapphorain (talk) 21:49, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it is irrelevant. Liotard is not mentioned in that document at all. It does not purport to deal with 18th century artists either.

He was born in Geneva, yes, but he is described as Swiss in a wide range of cited sources. That may be what you have described as "for convenience", but so what. Wikipedia just reports what the sources say. Anything else is original research.

If you can find a source describing a Liotard as "Genevan" then please provide it and we can assess it in relation to the many other sources that describe him as "Swiss" and work out what the consensus position is. 213.205.240.200 (talk) 07:47, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have now sourced the fact that Liotard was a citizen of the Republic of Geneva:[1]. The information is contained in the trimestrial journal fr:Enquête sur l'histoire which was devoted to French history. Sapphorain (talk) 07:16, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The single source you have found is an exhibition announcement that describes Liotard as a "citizen of Geneva", which he undoubtedly was. He was also a major figure in Swiss art, which is an important context. MOS:BIO reads: "The lead sentence should describe the person as he or she is commonly described in reliable sources." How is Liotard commonly described in reliable sources? I spent a couple hours checking reliable reference sources online and in my personal library, and here are the results.
  • Jean-Étienne Liotard, (born Dec. 22, 1702, Geneva —died June 12, 1789, Geneva),Swiss painter (Encyclopedia Britannica)
  • Jean-Étienne Liotard. Peintre suisse (Genève 1702-Genève 1789). (Encyclopédie Larousse en ligne)
  • Liotard, Jean-Étienne zhäN ātyĕn´ lyôtär´ [key], 1702–89, Swiss painter. (Columbia Encyclopedia)
  • Liotard, Jean Étienne Swiss , 18th century, male. (Benezit Dictionary of Artists)
  • Liotard, Jean-Etienne (b Geneva, Dec 22, 1702; d Geneva, June 12, 1789). Swiss pastellist, painter, printmaker and writer. (Oxford Art Online)
  • Liotard, Jean-Étienne (Swiss painter, 1702-1789) ULAN
  • Name; Liotard, Jean-Etienne (le peintre turc) Dates of birth and death: * 22.12.1702 Genève, † 12.6.1789 Genève. Municipality of origin: (CH) Genève. Nationality: CH (SIKART Lexicon on Art in Switzerland)
  • Liotard, Jean-Étienne: Swiss, 1702-1789 (Dictionary of Pronunciation of Artists' Names)
After checking reference works, I looked at several other sources but found no exceptions among those that specify a nationality:
In the face of all this evidence, the wording of your edit ("sometimes referred to as being Swiss") is grossly misleading—rather like defining Everest as a nesting ground for Alpine chough that is "sometimes referred to as a mountain". Reliable sources provide our model: Beethoven's citizenship was not German, as no such nation-state existed in 1770; he was born in the Electorate of Cologne, part of the Holy Roman Empire. Titian was a citizen of the Republic of Venice; there was no such nation-state as Italy. But reliable sources, by convention, always label them as German and Italian respectively, and Wikipedia follows sources. This case is no different. Ewulp (talk) 04:53, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Alright. As long as the fact that he was a citizen of the Republic of Geneva clearly implies that the denomination « Swiss » is just a convention that does not refer to an official nationality, I can live with that. And this is now clear in the lead.
However, the current indication in the infobox that his nationality was « Swiss » is just false, as he never had the citizenship. You refer above to Beethoven and the Titian as cases similar to that of Liotard. But the infoboxes there don’t contain the false indications that Beethoven and the Titian held respectively German and Italien nationalities. They contain no nationality item at all. It should (at least) be the same in the case of Liotard. Sapphorain (talk) 09:25, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ewulp is correct. We follow sources. Johnbod (talk) 16:35, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, maybe he is right. But as he he points it, similarly as Beethoven had no German citizenship and the Titian had no Italian citizenship, "Swiss" in the case of Liotard cannot refer to his citizenship. Thus, as in those two cases, it is sufficient to have the qualificatives "Swiss" or "German" or "Italian" in the lead, without having a nationality item in the infobox, which would be plainly false. Sapphorain (talk) 17:28, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The treatment of nationality in infoboxes seems to depend on local consensus; for instance see Giovanni Bellini and Albrecht Dürer. But infoboxes don't convey complexity very well and I would favor leaving nationality out in this case. Ewulp (talk) 02:26, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If we do that we might as well remove it altogether - people will be forever putting something in. I wouldn't mind that. Apart from his dates, the rest is dubious/borderline misleading, as so often. Johnbod (talk) 03:25, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Ewulp (talk) 04:18, 18 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There was no such thing as Swiss nationality prior to the nineteenth century. "Swiss" was a word used as a convention to describe people from a variety of principalities and cantons in the region. It is perfectly acceptable to describe a Genevan from the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries as "Swiss." Again, there was no such thing as "Swiss" nationality. Nobody had "Swiss" nationality in the eighteenth century, just as nobody had "German" nationality in the eighteenth century.
See the entry for "Suisse" in Le Dictionnaire historique de la Suisse, which provides ample documentation of these facts. It is simply wrong for @Sapphorain to adopt as a hobby horse imposing nineteenth and twentieth century conceptions of nationality into previous eras in an effort to displace well-established conventions for talking about historic figures and to fill wikipedia pages with your mistaken understandings. Notably:
"Le terme de Suisse devint prédominant dans l'usage en Suisse même au cours de la seconde moitié du XIXe s. En même temps, sa signification, jusqu'alors plutôt géographique, comprit désormais aussi l'Etat, tandis qu'étaient reléguées les appellations Helvetia, Confoederatio, Confédérés, Confoederatio helvetica, Liga, Bund, Treize Cantons et Corps helvétique."
Just want to leave this here in order to discourage further ahistorical absurdities. MirroredApple (talk) 15:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a "Swiss" source listing him as Swiss from the eighteenth century. MirroredApple (talk) 18:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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