Talk:Jisaburō Ozawa

Shimakaze?

Surely the link is to the wrong Shimakaze? Was there an earlier destroyer of this name for which there is no article? Philip Trueman (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The link was incorrect. Ozawa commanded the Minekaze class destroyer Japanese destroyer Shimakaze (1920) and not the later WWII-era Shimakaze.--MChew (talk) 01:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

External links modified

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Qualitative Source, Quantitative Statement

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Ozawa_Jisaburo.jpg

Jisaburo Ozawa Head-to-thigh Portrait https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Ozawa_Jisaburo.jpg

Based on measuring the armspan using the photo shown above the ratio of the armspan to the upper-lip-to-eyeline could be taken. The measurement of the top-lip-to-eyeline length can be taken using the photograph below which shows the breast star of the Order of the Sacred Treasure with 8 rays. According to emedals.com this badge is 75 mm (assuming across). From doing the measurement this way and assuming that armspan-to-height ratio is 1, the final height goes to around 6 feet 4 inches.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Ozawa11.jpg

Jisaburo Ozawa Portrait with Order of the Sacred Treasure Badge https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Ozawa11.jpg

Measurement is very delicate and small differences may cause significant change in the final measured height. Therefore, any final measurement of height by using body ratios as seen in photographs cannot be taken with absolute certainty but the evidence it provides is better than unsubstatiated claims especially when concrete numbers are given. I guess what I am trying to say is I don't care if Jisaburo Ozawa was tall or not -- he was very tall even by today's standards -- rather I care about wrong information especially when it is exactly given without evidence. In this case a contributor exactly gave 6'7" even if the source cited did not have this measurement. Perhaps it is this abuse of the citation that slighted me the most, a slight that cannot be let pass given the extra time during the pandemic with its social distancing.

P.S. I'd even argue that Jisaburo Ozawa was not really that ugly but that is another matter for another day -- a day without rulers.

Vmwlk (talk) 15:43, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

References

"In March–April 1942 he commanded the highly successful commerce raiding detachment during the foray into the Indian Ocean."

This sentence cites a link which in turn contains the sentence "He then commanded the highly successful commerce raiding detachment (which sank 23 British merchant ships) during the Japanese foray into the Indian Ocean in March-April 1942." However, Operation C, Japan's Indian Ocean raid of that time, was carried out by the 1st Air Fleet aka "Kido Butai" under Chuichi Nagumo. If this is referring to some other raid I'm unaware of which took place at the same time, is there another article referencing that raid? My inclination is to delete this sentence despite the citation, but I wanted to notify others first. 208.59.185.238 (talk) 02:37, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I've now removed that claim. If anyone objects, I hope they chime in here. 208.59.185.238 (talk) 22:17, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Height

I've removed the reference to Ozawa's tall height, as it wasn't supported in the reference given. I also can't find it noted in any English-language reliable source that predates the sentence's inclusion into this article in 2007. Does anyone have better searching skills than me? Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 05:14, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

To be clear, I've seen that Pacific Thunder: The US Navy's Central Pacific Campaign, August 1943–October 1944 exists. However, there's no accompanying citation for its statement about Ozawa's height, and the wording strongly suggests it was borrowed from Wikipedia (from an article revision like this). Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 03:06, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 166#Jisaburō Ozawa's height. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 22:59, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

@The ed17: Investigating this, I was able to find the following in Barrett Tillman's Clash of The Carriers: The True Story of the Marianas Turkey Shoot of World War II (page 27) from 2006:

Ozawa was a moon-faced officer of imposing appearance; at two meters tall, he was huge for a Japanese.

There is obviously still some room for doubt about the veracity of said claim. Still, this should at least conclusively prove that the claim did not originate from Wikipedia.

Also, pinging User:MChew, who first added the information in this edit, and who apparently might not even be aware of this conversation. 2001:999:704:5394:8978:4AB:C2EC:B351 (talk) 15:55, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. That's a good find! There is a footnote listed on page 329 for that page and paragraph. It is clearly meant to apply to the florid quote that directly follows your find ("Ozawa was a moon-faced officer of imposing appearance; at two meters tall, he was huge for a Japanese. One of his carrier skippers said, 'Ozawa was probably the most courageous officer in the Imperial Navy. He ... interpreted Horatio Nelson in terms of the Samurai code and lived accordingly.' ")

However, that footnote leads to the source we're currently using to say that Ozawa was over six feet tall: Toshiyuki Yokoi, Ukiyo: Stories of "The Floating World" of Postwar Japan, p. 9.

In turn, Yokoi says: "... Samurai code and lived accordingly. His physical stature, over six feet, was massive for a Japanese, and may have overshadowed any weak points in his professional career. A nation which built a modern war machine on a feudal framework still preferred for its heroes those who looked like heroes." (that is a strange turn of phrase but correctly copied; I would guess that it's an artifact of translating the book from Japanese into English)

Very speculatively, I wonder if:

1. Tillman loosely converted "over six feet" from the translation of Yokoi's book to "two meters tall"
2. MChew understandably converted that to 6'7", as 2 meters converts to 6' and 6.74"
3. Academics took that from Wikipedia and ran with it?

It could be interesting to see what the original Japanese language printing of Yokoi's book gave for Ozawa's height. Ed ^{[talk] [OMT]} 17:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)