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Polemical and non-factual entries

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User:Kyrja recently deleted the following paragraphs from the article: "In return, they were granted favors: the loss-making mines were heavily subsidized and Miron Cozma, the Jiu Valley union leader, nicknamed Regele Huilei (The King of Coal), became the de-facto governor of the region, while Bucharest and the local police turned a blind eye to his abuses." and "Along with Cozma's arrest, the miners' unions lost their unity and the political influence. The mines started to be gradually closed and the miners agreed to be laid off in return for consistent severance payments (amounting between 12 and 20 monthly wages)." , claiming they were polemical and non-factual. I have the following questions:

1) Isn't it true that the mines were inefficient and that were making losses?

2) Isn't it true that the Jiu Valley mines were subsidized in the 1990-1996 period?

3) Isn't it true that Miron Cozma wasn't arrested or questioned for the following deeds until 1997? (excerpt from a Dimineaţa article, January 11, 1997 [1]):

1. Miron Cozma este cercetat in dosarul nr. 83/P/1994 al Parchetului de pe langa Tribunalul Gorj pentru infractiunea de ultraj, prevazuta de art. 239 alin. 1 C.p.
In fapt, s-a retinut ca in ziua de 16 februarie 1994, in timpul grevelor minerilor din bazinul Gorjului, Cozma Miron l-a insultat si amenintat pe lucratorul de politie, Caragea Viorel, aflat in misiune ordonata de a asigura ordinea publica in Piata Revolutiei din municipiul Targu Jiu.
2. In prezent se afla in curs de judecata la Judecatoria Petrosani, cu termen la 6 februarie 1997 dosarul privind pe Miron Cozma si altii, cercetati pentru savarsirea infractiunilor de distrugere in paguba avutului privat, prevazute de art. 217 C.p. si ultraj contra bunelor moravuri si tulburarea linistii publice, prevazute de art. 321 C.p., fapte comise in zilele de 22 - 24 mai 1996 in incinta restaurantului Complexului "Vegas" din Petrosani.
3. Cozma Miron a fost condamnat la 2 ani inchisoare cu suspendarea conditionata a executarii pedepsei pentru ucidere din culpa, infractiune prevazuta de art. 178 alin. 2 C.p., retinandu-se ca ziua de 19 iunie 1991, in jurul orelor 14, circuland la volanul autoturismului nr. 4 HD 4145 a accidentat mortal pe Draghici Roza Violeta, in varsta de 31 de ani, mama a doi copii minori.
Cannot the above-mentioned facts be interpreted as Miron Cozma's abuses? (If any of you doesn't understand Romanian, I'd be glad to provide a translation).

4) Isn't it true that the miners' unions aren't so powerful nowadays?

5) Isn't it true that the miners were laid off when they were offered 12 to 20 monthly wages in return? (see this World Bank report: [2], , the Executive Summary, page v: "Despite a decline in living standards, laid-off miners are probably not the worst off since they had higher income levels to begin and also received special severance payments of 12-20 months wages denied to other sectors.")

It would be nice to hear other opinions. Mentatus 14:27, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Feedback

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I worked in Valea Jiului from 1999 until 2005 and have had many conversations with the miners, the miners union executives, etc.

response:

1) The "loss-making mines" were already heavily subsidized (some of which were arguably profitable, e.g, Mine Lupeni). The Miners Union was advocating a continuance of the subsidies and the perks the miners received.

OK, so nothing wrong with the statement "In return, they were granted favors: the loss-making mines were heavily subsidized", isn't it?
  • Correct

2) The designation of Cozma as "The King of Coal" was a title bestowed upon him by non-Jiu Valley media. Cozma's reputation and influence within the Valley has always been debated along with the polemics he and his supporters espoused.

OK, instead of deleting the paragraph you could have added "and Miron Cozma, the Jiu Valley union leader, nicknamed Regele Huilei (The King of Coal) by the Bucharest media". The easiest way is not always the best.
  • Correct

3) To which abuses do you refer?

The abuses mentioned in the Dimineaţa article: insulting and threatening a police officer, beating people in the "Vegas" restaurant in Petroşani, fatally wounding a woman when driving his car (you understand Romanian, don't you? I can translate the paragraphs there into English if you want). Doing that and NOT landing in prison isn't a bit surprising? Do you think that a normal person would get away with that unless he's got friends in high places? Ich don't think so, as Bruno would say.
  • My understanding is that the first two were unproven allegations; yes, i understand that this is your perspective of what might have occurred.
They were allegations made by the Prosecutor Office. However, I admit that the word "abuses" is POV-ish, so we can rephrase that to "..while Bucharest and the local police turned a blind eye to some of his alleged offenses: insulting and threatening a police officer in 1994, disturbing the public order in a restaurant in Petroşani in May 1996."

4) Loss of unity - when Cozma was initially arrested, there was arguably no loss of unity. In fact, Cozma remained the titular president of the Liga even when in jail. Ion Savu and Costel Postolache continued the basic policy direction of the Liga at least until 2003, the last time I spoke with them.

OK, but you could say that the influence of the unions gradually waned. I haven't heard of any strikes in the Jiu Valley and there were no more marches towards Bucharest. Doesn't that sound like a loss of influence and unity?
  • Again, this is your interpretation. Are you equating militancy with influence and unity? My understanding from conversations I had with miners and union leaders is that there was a general agreement that militant action had come at too high a cost and that other approaches were needed. If this is the case, does this necessarily mean loss of unity and influence (meeting your fastidious criteria for Wikipedia objectivity)?
OK, got your point. What do you think if we rephrased that to "After Cozma's arrest, the miners' unions renounced active political militancy and opted for non-violent methods to express their points of view"?

4) "The miners agreed to be laid off..." - this "agreement" was highly controversial and only accepted by some of the miners. The offers at redundancy payments came in stages, and were accepted/resisted in stages. Your entry suggests that everything happened at once and due to one event.

Where did you get that from? Have a look at what I wrote: "The mines started to be gradually closed and the miners agreed to be laid off in return for consistent severance payments (amounting between 12 and 20 monthly wages)." Who said that everything happened at once?? You could have re-phrased the sentence instead of deleting it, if you felt it suggested something wrong.
  • Agreed

I suppose I react to your wording because it appears to reflect the media bias against the miners that is so prevalent in the Romania media outside of Valea Jiului, with few reporters ever attempting to validate opinions or rumors. Kyrja 16:18, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suppose you reacted to my wording mainly because I marked your other 2 articles for deletion, if I judged you after the nervous comment you left on my talk page [3] and you deleted afterwards. Wikipedia is not about deleting things one doesn't like; you cannot just delete things if you think they're biased, you can re-phrase them to sound a less biased. A reference is a reference, and every reliable source deserves to be published, if it's relevant to the article. And it is not our job to question if the sources are biased or not. Stating that "the media bias against the miners that is so prevalent in the Romania media outside of Valea Jiului" is a biased opinion as well. Mentatus 18:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nervous comment, eh? Your etiquette has convinced me to refrain.

Kyrja 21:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, to summarize, what do you think if we rephrased those paragraphs to (changes in bold): "In return, they were granted favors: the loss-making mines were heavily subsidized and Miron Cozma, the Jiu Valley union leader, nicknamed Regele Huilei (The King of Coal) by the Bucharest media, became the de facto regional leader, while Bucharest and the local police turned a blind eye to some of his alleged offenses: insulting and threatening a police officer in 1994, disturbing the public order in a restaurant in Petroşani in May 1996." and "After Cozma's arrest, the miners' unions renounced active political militancy and opted for non-violent methods to express their points of view. The mines started to be gradually closed and the miners agreed to be laid off in return for consistent severance payments (amounting between 12 and 20 monthly wages)." ?

Cooperation makes Wikipedia articles better. And people like you, with in-depth knowledge about certain subjects, as Valea Jiului (you certainly know more than me or many others about this subject), are always welcome to contribute. Once again, welcome! Mentatus 08:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the welcome. Being new to Wikipedia I am amazed (and grateful) at the dedication of people like yourself to making this venture what it is (and presenting interesting and factual presentations of Romania).
Regarding your summary, I agree with most of your changes, but would suggest a re-wording of "'de factor regional leader'." While I agree that for a number of years Cozma exercised very significant influence within the region, he remained a polarizing figure within Jiu Valley and had both visible and less visible powerful figures that opposed his influence and methods. Perhaps something like "...by the Bucharest media and seen by many as the most visible and powerful regional leader...". Also, perhaps "While Cozma remained the titular President of the Union for several years after his arrest and subsequent imprisionment, Union leadership reputedly rejected the political militancy that had splintered organizational unity and opted for non-violent methods to express their points of view." I think this might be the most accurate portrayal, since there remain elements within the Union leadership that still advocate Cozma's militancy as the only way of getting the attention of the government. In fact, I spoke with two executives in 2002 when they were contemplating another strike. But there appears to be general unanimity that the violence (and even the perception of aggressive militancy) had overall backfired on the union and the region, further marginalizing the area, and resulting only in short-term gains.

Kyrja 13:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. OK then, the paragraphs would be re-worded to ""In return, they were granted favors: the loss-making mines were heavily subsidized and Miron Cozma, the Jiu Valley union leader, nicknamed Regele Huilei (The King of Coal) by the Bucharest media and seen by many as the most visible and powerful regional leader, while Bucharest and the local police turned a blind eye to some of his alleged offenses: insulting and threatening a police officer in 1994, disturbing the public order in a restaurant in Petroşani in May 1996." and "While Cozma remained the titular President of the Union for several years after his arrest and subsequent imprisonment, Union leadership reputedly rejected the political militancy that had splintered organizational unity and opted for non-violent methods to express their points of view.". Mentatus 12:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
yes Kyrja 20:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't written a section on this, but hopefully someone will write a section on the role the national government played in recent years, e.g., creating a new governor position for the region, working with the World Bank to develop a common development framework for the region (an unmitigated failure, in my clearly biased opinion), 'employment-development' projects lauched with EU Phare funds, etc. One will be hard-pressed to see tangible (or certainly sustainable) results of the investments, but various funds were appropriated and spent in the region. A few of these efforts are nominally discussed at the www.avj.ro site (with rare references to actual results).

Interesting article in Gândul

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În minele din Valea Jiului se lucrează non-stop. Mentatus 10:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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