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Requested move 3 July 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. After three weeks we are not any closer to agreement. The main point of contention with the proposed title is that the character has appeared on other TV shows as well as in the comics. While other options were proposed, it seems that (character) adequately disambiguates the subject from the other article of the same name, even if this version isn't the preferred version according to the relevant guidelines. Cúchullain t/c 14:01, 24 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]


John Diggle (character) → John Diggle (Arrow) – To follow the convention given at WP:NCTV#Episode and character articles which says to use the TV series title as the disambiguator. While this character has subsequently made special appearances in other TV series and in comics, so has the prime example given at NCTV of Spike (Buffy the Vampire Slayer). The character's creation and primary appearance are both from the Arrow TV series. Please note that the target has significant history, with three separate article creations and 3 subsequent redirects based on notability. Open to ideas where to best hold this history if the RM passes (my suggestion would be a history merge). -- Netoholic @ 06:13, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I initially thought this might be the right article title, but because the character also made five appearances on The Flash, two on Legends of Tomorrow, and was introduced to the DC Comics in 2013, (he still is there as of 2016), I rethought my decision. As for Spike, I guess he couldn't be named "Spike (character)" because there are so many other Spikes, and this character has only appeared in Buffy the Vampire Slayer-related media, whether comics or TV. --Kailash29792 (talk) 06:50, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment:I believe this section of WP:NCTV might need clarification/updating. Its not clear if "character" is the not used in those examples as its already used by other fictional characters. Also, with the emergence of shared universes, should that be used? (In this example, "Arrowverse") If so, should that be used for all characters regardless if they've appeared in more than one show of that universe (for consistency between article names)? --Gonnym (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I would agree that the article name should be changed. The character has subsequently appeared in greater DC media, and that is rightly referenced in the article, however, if he were to become a more significant figure in the comics at some fututre date, that would warrant a seperate article when appropriate. I would also agree with Gonnym that it would probably be more appropriate to acknowledge the shared universe these characters exist in by using "Arrowverse" as opposed to just "Arrow". This would also help clarify some of the editing issues at related articles such as Oliver Queen (Arrow), where there is a level of disambiguity as to whether the page is about the character in the specific show Arrow, or the character in the Arrowverse franchise as a whole. I would support a move to John Diggle (Arrowverse), followed by similar moves for Oliver Queen (Arrow), Sara Lance, Alex Danvers, Thea Queen and Harrison Wells, as well as it becoming standard for any future character pages created for characters from any Arrowverse show. AutumnKing (talk) 12:26, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I would support a move to John Diggle (Arrowverse), only because, while yes the character appeared first on Arrow, they have numerous appearances across the Arrowverse shows. However, I do not agree that Oliver Queen (Arrow), should move, because he has only really appeared on Arrow, with other appearances mainly in the yearly crossover episodes (unlike Diggle). The other Arrowverse character articles do not currently have disambiguation, and they shouldn't have it added because of this discussion, as Autumnking suggested. If in the future, other "Sara Lance"s, etc. appear, then it can be discussed which disambiguations they should have. (For the record, I would say Sara should have "Arrowverse", Thea "Arrow", Danvers "Supergirl", and Wells "Flash"). - Favre1fan93 (talk) 18:47, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: For this current discussion I support Arrowverse over Arrow. I do however think that consistency is important in naming the articles. I'd go with Arrowverse for any article relating to the Arrowverse that needs disambiguation as this will just be a debatable issue. Oliver was also in (non-crossover-events) Freedom Fighters: The Ray and Vixen (web series) and a few episodes of Legends. It just seems (to me) easier this way in dealing with shared-universe articles. --Gonnym (talk) 20:03, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Digging around there seems to be a hidden convention which might need to be adopted by NCTV - Data (Star Trek) and Q (Star Trek) which are not from Star Trek: The Original Series, but from Star Trek: The Next Generation; Odo (Star Trek) and Quark (Star Trek), also not from Star Trek: The Original Series but from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine; Rey (Star Wars) which did not appear in Star Wars (film), but in Star Wars: The Force Awakens; Claire Temple (Marvel Cinematic Universe) which original appearance was on Daredevil (TV series). Also, regarding the comment a bit above that ""Arrowverse" is a fan-invented term, cruft, jargony" - both Marc Guggenheim and Andrew Kreisberg call it that officially. --Gonnym (talk) 07:39, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Was going to link the Star Trek example myself, as it demonstrates the principle. These are characters from a collective universe of shows, rather than being limited to just the one. Whilst I am not aware of the exact origin of the term "Arrowverse", it is one used by producers/executives themselves when discussing the shared universe of the shows (demonstrated here [1] and here [2]), and as such is an acceptable umbrella term for the franchise as a whole in a situation where there is not an alternative suitable umbrella term (such as simply using "Star Trek" to incorporate all the shows/films under that umbrella) Support a move to "John Diggle (Arrowverse)", and still propose similar move for "Oliver Queen (Arrow)". Although I personally prefer the consistency of labelling any characters pages from the shows in the same manner, having looked at other examples, I concede that the naming convention seems to be only to add a bracketed clarifier if there are multiple articles with the same title. AutumnKing (talk) 09:45, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Star Wars and Marvel Cinematic Universe characters are disambiguated that way, not because they are a simple "shared universe", but because they are film franchises and covered under WP:NCFILM. Star Trek is trickier, as it was a TV franchise but is now more of a film one. But we've never used "shared universe" as a disambiguator, and this RM isn't the place to debate a major change like that. Crossovers exist all over television, but the characters are always considered to be guests from their main series. You pointed out 3 examples that don't really apply, but fail to list all the TV shared universe that we do not use as disambiguators, such as Buffyverse characters, Doctor Who characters vs. spin-off characters in the same universe (SJA characters, Torchwood characters), etc. -- Netoholic @ 19:40, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • While my Star Wars was indeed a film example, I added that to show this was not a TV-only issue. I tried finding one for the TV shows, but there were no articles with a disambiguation (unless you count this redirect - Ghost (Star Wars)). Saying my example of Claire Temple does not apply is just silly. She's never appeared in any film of the universe, but did appear in 5 of the Netflix shows. Not only does she apply, but she is a prime example of my point. Also, calling Star Trek a film franchise is even stranger. Except the 3 reboot films, all other films were expanding the TV universe. It most definitely is a TV franchise at its core. So except my Star Wars one which is indeed film related, all of my examples are good examples of my point. To your other point regarding "cross-overs", that is really the heart of the issue and something I commented on earlier ("with the emergence of shared universes, should that be used?"), shared-universes are not crossovers. They might have cross-over episodes like the Arrowverse does, but it's much more. If you look at the Netflix shows vs Buffy & Angel you will see that they work in a completely different way. While both shows have a shared setting, Angel was a spin-off of Buffy with occasional crossovers, while the Netflix shows even without a crossover have a sense of shared-space. And while I agree this isn't the place to voice objections regarding NCTV, I still cannot support a name move as per SMcCandlish reasoning, makes another ambiguity. If I have to choose between the current one and the proposed one, (character) is better. --Gonnym (talk) 20:12, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per nom. The character originates from, and is most prominent in, Arrow. His occasional presence in other venues does not change that. —Joeyconnick (talk) 04:38, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as ridiculously confusing; a disambiguator that introduces another ambiguity is a failure. Could support (Arrowverse), which is not ambiguous.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:35, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Article subjects without the need for disambiguation such as Sara Lance, Alex Danvers, Thea Queen, and Harrison Wells don’t need the added (Arrowverse) extension in their titles but I would support this article being renamed to either John Diggle (Arrow) or John Diggle (Arrowverse) as long as it becomes consistent with Oliver Queen (Arrow). Despite the apparent confusion, Oliver Queen appears in many other episodes of the Arrowverse besides the yearly crossovers so there’s no reason why (Arrowverse) wouldn’t be appropriate for that page as well. The term is, in fact, official. Obviously the best naming option for this page would be John Diggle but that article has not come to a consensus to be moved despite being little more than a stub and having questionable reason for existence. It would be preferable for that article to move at some point, but the next best option would be John Diggle (Arrowverse) Or John Diggle (Arrow). Dhalh (talk) 20:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: If John Diggle (Arrowverse) Or John Diggle (Arrow) are ultimately the only valid options, I'd go with the former. Also, since Diggle is now in the DC Comics, I've redirected John Diggle (comics) to List of DC Comics characters: J. Kailash29792 (talk) 04:00, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not comfortable with Arrowverse per MOS:IN-U. Titling the article with a term known only to fans is not a good idea. The something-verse names are not well known outside the realm of their fanbase, and no one else knows what they mean. Why can't we use something that makes sense like John Diggle (Arrow character) or John Diggle (Arrow TV series). Alternately a less good option would be John Diggle (DC Comics) or John Diggle (DC media franchise character)? If needed, perhaps John Diggle (Arrowverse franchise) to denote that it is a media franchise and not a new type of quantum physics. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 10:40, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Frayae, the term "Arrow-verse" was declared official by Kreisberg. --Kailash29792 (talk) 10:58, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No doubt it's official, it makes me discombobulated because the programme series is not called "arrowverse", nor is the company behind it, this makes it less clear to someone who knows of the series but is not enough of a fan to know of the arrowverse. I am not opposing the idea, just making my opinion known. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 11:08, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:IN-U is irreverent here as "arrowverse" is not from the vantage of characters within the fictional universe, as Kailash29792 stated, its an official name given by the production and used by critics (RS) and fans. Now, whether that name is valid or not, that has to do with WP:NCTV, which as Netoholic pointed out the guideline does not currently support (but does in fact use in at least MCU, Star Trek and Law & Order character articles). I've created a discussion on this and other issues over here if you want to take part in the discussion. As a side note, both John Diggle (DC Comics) or John Diggle (DC media franchise character) are not good names, as this article is only for the TV version of the character and not for any comic book version. --Gonnym (talk) 14:10, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, "arrowverse" is an alternative official name for the programme(s), and not representative of a fictional universe within the programme series? — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 15:42, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Frayae: "Arrowverse" is the term used by production team members (officially confirmed), media outlets, and fans to group together the television series that all exist within the same fiction universe/multiverse. The "in-universe" dab for any of these characters would be (Earth-1) or (Earth-#), because within the shows, each character knows they exist on 1 of 53 fictional earths, but have no idea what "Arrowverse" is. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 16:56, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Right, I think I will try to avoid getting bogged down with the 53 in-universe fictional earths! Given that this "Arrowverse" is an official production label. Recognisable to those who know about the series. And used by media and news as a term. I now support John Diggle (Arrowverse) as a reasonable disambiguator. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 17:03, 21 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 1 August 2018

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to John Diggle (Arrowverse) - as I said in the relist, there was consensus for a move of some sort, but a rough split on whether it should be Arrow or Arrowverse. It looks like there is a slight edge in favour of Arrowverse though. Per user:Favre1fan93 I will also move Oliver Queen (Arrow) to Oliver Queen (Arrowverse)).  — Amakuru (talk) 13:14, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]


John Diggle (character) → John Diggle (Arrowverse) – Or John Diggle (Arrow). But either way, John Diggle (comics) isn't the right option since that now redirects to List of DC Comics characters: J, considering the Arrowverse version and comics version are largely different from each other. Kailash29792 (talk) 07:12, 1 August 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:27, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Joeyconnick, I think you didn't notice I listed "John Diggle (Arrow)" as an alternative solution. Besides, Smallville's Ollie doesn't have his own article; it redirects to Justice League (Smallville). Since Smallville's universe had no official name, I think all articles related to it are titled "XYZ (Smallville)". But "Arrowverse" is the official name used by the creators. Still, "John Diggle (Arrow)" isn't so bad of an option. --Kailash29792 (talk) 17:04, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Eventhough as shown, reliable sources from TV- and geek-centric news sites to forbes and the producers themselves all use Arrowverse (as the policy you cited requires) or did you mean just the regular Wikipedia article about Neologism? (regardless though, saying the "Arrowverse" is a recent word is sort of a non-argument, of course it is, Arrow itself only debuted in 2012 with The Flash being the second show only 2 years later). --Gonnym (talk) 17:18, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There is disagreement on what really should be the title of this article. Either way, I hope it doesn't end with "no consensus" since I don't mind if it is moved to John Diggle (Arrow), which is what most users are voting in favour of. Kailash29792 (talk) 17:30, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relisting Comment - there is definitely consensus for a move of some sort, but it is not totally clear whether "John Diggle (Arrow)" or "Jon Diggle (Arrowverse)" is preferred at the moment. Giving it another week for more inputs, then (unless there's a major change in the meantime) we'll pick one or the other.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:27, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move to John Diggle (Arrowverse), oppose move to John Diggle (Arrow) If Diggle's character was shown only on Arrow, or had extremely limited appearances or mentions on the other Arrowverse shows, then I would agree that his title should be "John Diggle (Arrow)". But, Diggle has made significant appearances in episodes of The Flash, as well as in the various crossovers. He has a larger presence in the Arrowverse oeuvre than just Arrow, so that should be reflected in the article title as "John Diggle (Arrowverse)". Ooznoz (talk) 23:51, 9 August 2018 (UTC)Ooznoz[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lego Batman 3: Beyond Gotham appearence

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Is the world in Lego Batman 3: Beyond Gotham, part of the Arrowverse? If it isn't, it should not be under John Diggle (character)#In other media, but under John Diggle (character)#Other versions as the "In other media" sections deals with the Arrowverse version of John Diggle and his appearences in other (non TV) media. --Gonnym (talk) 20:40, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As per the source in the article the DLC pack is explicity of the characters from the show Arrow, as opposed to any other version. AutumnKing (talk) 21:45, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks for that! --Gonnym (talk) 21:50, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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