Talk:John Williams (author, born 1961)

Requested move 14 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved.

All 6 editors participating in this discussion support some move being made. They make 4 proposals for the new name, for which the !votes are as follows: John Lincoln Williams, 3; John Williams (author, born 1961), 2; John L. Williams (author), 2; John Williams (Welsh author), 1; with some editors supporting multiple options. There is therefore no consensus as to the new name and WP:OTHEROPTIONS applies, and I must pick one of the options.

I was initially minded to pick John Lincoln Williams because it has the most support, because it already exists as a redirect and because the article introduces the subject as John Lincoln Williams. However, I find that Ahecht added the middle name to the article a minute before proposing that as an alt move. The redirect was created the following day by an otherwise uninvolved editor. The source cited does not support the subject being known as John Lincoln Williams and in fact Ahecht has stated that he is "not commonly referred to using all three names at once".

In these circumstances, I find the argument from WP:MIDDLENAME to have force. I find John L. Williams (author) an unsatisfactory compromise for essentially the reason stated by No such user. There are many precedents for the use of year of birth as an additional disambiguator and this is acknowledged by WP:NCPDAB. The example given there is Charles Hawtrey (actor, born 1914) and Charles Hawtrey (actor, born 1858), who could be disambiguated by middle names or initials, but are not. Therefore I make the move as originally proposed.

As always where WP:OTHEROPTIONS applies, if anyone objects to my choice, then they may make fresh move request at any time.(non-admin closure) Havelock Jones (talk) 11:22, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

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John Williams (author) → John Williams (author, born 1961) – Ambiguous with numerous other articles. 207.161.86.162 (talk) 03:51, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

See alternative proposal – John L. Williams (author). 207.161.86.162 (talk) 03:02, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). No such user (talk) 07:44, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• This should probably be moved to John Lincoln Williams instead. --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 16:03, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

  @Ahecht: John Lincoln Williams doesn't appear to be the subject's WP:COMMONNAME, does it? Most sources don't appear to use the middle name. Adding a middle name for the purpose of disambiguation wouldn't be consonant with WP:MIDDLENAME which provides: "Adding given names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised [emphasis in the original]." 207.161.86.162 (talk) 02:04, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

  Actually, the subject's real name is John Lincoln, and John Williams is the pen name: https://nbmagazine.co.uk/interview-john-lincoln-meets-paul-burke/ "John Lincoln Williams" seems to be a Wikipedian invention, and I'm going to fix it. However, he is notable under both of the names, so I'm not sure what the best disambiguation would be. John Lincoln (disambiguation) is less overloaded. No such user (talk) 07:50, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

  Scratch that; from the NB interview: PB: You have a reputation, [...] as John Williams but you chose to publish Fade to Grey as John Lincoln, what’s the motivation for the pen name? — JL: Mostly I decided that this was something of a new start. I just fancied marking that by having a new name – even if it’s only my middle name. Also, just try googling John Williams – it’s hopeless! No such user (talk) 08:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

  As No such user stated, while he may not be commonly referred to using all three names at once, he is commonly known by both his middle name (used as a pen name for his crime fiction) and his last name (used for his other works). --Ahecht (TALK
  PAGE) 13:17, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• I'd suggest either John Williams (Welsh author) or John Lincoln Williams per WP:NATURAL. WP:MIDDLENAME nowithstanding, the subject's middle name is rather well-known, if only as a secondary pen name. No such user (talk) 08:03, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support move to John Lincoln Williams per No such user and Ahecht, both names appear to be relevant, and it leads to natural disambiguation. ASUKITE 17:12, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
• Alternative proposal – I did some digging and it appears that in more recent years, the subject has been publishing under the name John L. Williams (see, e.g., [1]). As I don't think the author would qualify as the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the title over the American football player and the politician, I would propose simply adding an initial to the existing title, giving us John L. Williams (author).

I don't know that the other possibilities suggested are realistic possibilities. "John Lincoln Williams" doesn't appear to be widely used and, accordingly, wouldn't meet the standard set by WP:MIDDLENAME for the application of natural disambiguation using middle names in biographies: Adding given names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised. And "John Williams (Welsh author)" would still be ambiguous with John Ellis Williams and a couple poets.

What does everyone think? (I'll go ahead and ping those who have been involved in the conversation thus far as well as the article's creator: Ahecht, Asukite, Linguoboy, and No such user.) 207.161.86.162 (talk) 03:02, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I think it's overcomplicating: basically, you're keeping the parenthetic disambiguator but only adding an "L." to the current title, which arguably also violates "Adding given names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes". To play a Devil's advicate, John L. Williams (Welsh nationalist) also wrote a number of books, on history, the Welsh language, and also his autobiography Ysgrifau llernorion; wedi'u dethol a'u golygu gan John Lasarus Williams. [2], so he's too a John L. Williams (author). No such user (talk) 10:03, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support original proposal. This is our usual disambiguation for people for whom disambiguation is otherwise ambiguous. Not the only Welsh author by this name and full name not commonly used, so this is the only option for meeting WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:50, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Agree, let's throw WP:RECOGNIZABLE and WP:NATURAL out of the window, they can get difficult to fulfill. Years of birth can disambiguate almost anyone. Heck, I have an even better idea, let's use John Williams (b98800f4-5af9-449b-aea4-9e96bf5d2346), it's guaranteed to be unique. </sarcasm> No such user (talk) 14:54, 5 November 2021 (UTC)
• Move to John L. Williams (author) per no such user. The middle initial is reasonably commonly used, so this is fine. Nobody knows what year he was born, so that should only be used as a last resort.  — Amakuru (talk) 18:02, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.