Talk:Joseph Joachim

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Recordings[edit]

When I cleaned up formatting on compositions, I hadn't looked at recordings, which puts the open number after the title, which I prefer visually. MaxEnt 21:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Conversion[edit]

I know that Joachim converted to some form of Christianity - he talks about it in Arthur Abell's Talks With Great Composers. Shouldn't it be mentioned in the article? -- kosboot (talk) 00:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Connection with Chrysander?[edit]

I've added Joachim in the Publications by Friedrich Chrysander article as having co-published volumes of the music of Corelli. I'm reasonably sure this is the right Joachim, but I don't know enough about Joachim to integrate Chrysander into this article. At the very least, would a link to the Publications by Friedrich Chrysander article in this article's "See also" section be a good idea?  GFHandel.   00:26, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Visited Australia?[edit]

In doing research for Aylmer Buesst, I came across this article, which says that Joachim visited Melbourne "in the 1890s". Google doesn't help me in pinning down the year more precisely, or even in confirming he was ever in Australia at all. Can anyone shed any light on this? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 02:01, 26 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

An Australian, J. L. Zerbini, played viola in a long series of London Popular Concerts of chamber music in which Joachim was first violin. Beyond that, I don't know. Marlindale (talk) 04:06, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Link to article dead. Searched Australian newspapers of the 1850-1899 period via Trove (National Lib. Aust). Joachim is mentioned but never as a visitor to those shores.

Montagnana Violin[edit]

On Oct.18th 2013 was contributed by E.Joach a Montagnana violin to the list of violins possessed by Joachim. No reference was given. The information is questionable without further reference were the information came from. The violin was not mentioned elsewere. So the contributor might give more information. Kamlah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.8.178.67 (talk) 10:39, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Alphabetical order for references would help[edit]

As the list of references gets longer, it gets harder for readers to find a given reference. I'm about to add yet another reference. I don't think I can do the alphabetization myself for lack of time and because this article is not one of my higher priorities, although I hope to have already made some positive contributions to it. Marlindale (talk) 02:36, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I meant alphabetical by last name of (lead or first) author. Marlindale (talk) 02:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have now done the alphabetization. Marlindale (talk) 17:30, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Better known as performer than composer[edit]

Looking up Jascha Heifetz I found that there is a WikiProject Biography/Musicians, but Joachim is not in that although he is among composers. If Joachim was not the greatest violinist in the world during his career, who was? The closest great preceder may have been Paganini, and after Joachim the next Fritz Kreisler? Both had distinct styles, with Joachim's more classical? Marlindale (talk) 19:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Brahms visited England at least once? Source?[edit]

I had myself written that Brahms never went to England but I found I had evidence to the contrary, as I had written myself in the Brahms article that he took a concert tour including London with Clara Schumann in early 1869, citing there a footnote by the editor to letters in German between Clara and Brahms. Maybe a reference in German is not satisfactory. I think the best solution may be to delete all mention from the article about Brahms going to England, as it is not really relevant to Joachim, so that's what I plan to do. Marlindale (talk) 00:25, 6 October 2014 (UTC) Marlindale (talk) 02:15, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Performed Brahms concerto publicly "only" 6 times?[edit]

I agree with the recent deletion of that statement. It seems to me quite uninteresting compared to never performing Dvořák's concerto or Schumann's. Most of Joachim's performances seem to have been of chamber music, in London several months of many years with Ries, Zerbini, Piatti, and sometimes Clara Schumann, or on the Continent with his own string quartet. There is rather detailed information available about Clara's performance of piano concerti. Her preferred concerto was Beethoven's fifth (Emperor) which so far I can document she performed 4 times. She performed Robert Schumann's concerto at least twice. Marlindale (talk) 22:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC) Marlindale (talk) 22:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why not Wikiproject Musicians? Why still Start-Class?[edit]

He was and is much better known as a violinist than as a composer. The musician part of the article seems by now beyond Start-Class, I would have thought. Marlindale (talk) 19:15, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To answer my own question about Start-Class, a lot more biography is needed. I will look for sources. There is one by Styra Avins. Marlindale (talk) 00:31, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it's bad form to revert a Talk entry even it it's one's own. I don't particularly think a lot more bio is needed but some could be added, and I do have some sources. I think (a) Styra Avins' assessment of the article as "excellent" back in 2008 showed it may have been beyond Start-Class even then, but what can we do about it?

(b) Something could be added about Joachim helping Brahms with orchestration of his 1st piano concerto, besides Brahms's violin concerto and the double concerto. Marlindale (talk) 04:34, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On further consideration, I suppose that Start-Class is just the lowest class assigned. For this, one might consider all parts of the article, not just the biography. One section is "Joachim's instruments" (violins). with quite a lot of Notes. There is an interesting, visible pattern in these notes.. Comparing the article Fritz Kreisler, there is much briefer mention of the violins he used, without notes. I prefer that, and I accept the Start-Class now. I may continue working on the bio. Marlindale (talk) 18:07, 16 August 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Orchestration of Schubert "Grand Duo"[edit]

If so inclined, one might get one or both book references on Joachim's orchestration from the WP article on the Schubert Grand Duo, and/or get more details about the Houston Symphony (Eschenbach) recording to put on the list of recordings of Joachim's music. I'm mainly interested in Joachim as a violinist myself. Marlindale (talk) 01:07, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

List of compositions, original compositions[edit]

The list seems to have some unusual features. After the 14 works with opus numbers are some labeled "WoO" (works without opus number) and others that apparently could also be so labeled. Some compositions have been recorded, others not. Some have scores listed by IMSLP, others not. I have in mind to put "citation needed" for works with no opus number, no recording, and no score listed by IMSLP. Marlindale (talk) 23:57, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment[edit]

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Joseph Joachim/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)Press [show] to view →
This is an excellent article, although it doesn't get to the heart of Joachim's almost pathological jealousy, which interfered with his relations with Brahms, Clara, and most of all with his wife. but it contains really excellent work, and I'm impressed!

Styra Avins, author of Johannes Brahms: Life and Letters (Oxford U. Press). I mention this only because I have spent quite a lot of time reading about Joachim, and wrote the entry on him in the Oxford Companion to Music. Quite frankly I didn't expect to find such a good article on the web. 71.48.96.74 (talk) 18:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really know International Phonetic Alphabet conventions, but in my own mind I have always pronounced his name Yo-ach-im, with the accent on the 2nd syllable. As an Askenazy Jew, his name was probably pronounced as in German. Any comments? Suomilainen1 6/10/09Suomilainen1 (talk) 01:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Regarding jealousy as mentioned by Styra Avins, when Joachim and his wife were divorcing, Brahms took the wife's side, causing a rift with Brahms which was eventually patched up. I hadn't known about any issues between Joachim and Clara. The Litzmann book on Clara says Joachim's friendship with her never failed her (quoted in Clara Schumann). How did Joachim's jealousy affect that friendship? Marlindale (talk) 22:21, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 22:22, 13 August 2015 (UTC). Substituted at 20:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The assessment comment by Styra Avins was actually made 7 March 2008. Marlindale (talk) 20:54, 16 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Section on Joachim's instruments[edit]

There is a data base, the "Cozio Archive", associated with Tarisio Auctions, cozio.com. Each string instrument in the base has a 5-digit ID number. One can search by "Historical Owners" such as Joachim. The archive lists 19 instruments as having been owned by Joachim, one viola made by Gasparo Bertolottii and 18 violins, 12 made by Antonio Stradivari, two by Guadagnini, and one each by Carlo Testore, Francesco Rugeri, Pietro Guarneri [a lesser known Guarneri] and Giuseppe Guarneri "del Jesu", the most reputed Guarneri. The section approximately agrees on the list of instruments owned — its footnotes are mainly to cozio.com — and gives more details on Joachim's acquisition or disposal of instruments.

In the book Joseph Joachim by J. A. Fuller-Maitland, 1905, a Google Book, I searched for "Guarneri" and found no hits. For "Stradivarius" I found just one, on p. 18, saying that in 1889, on the occasion of a Jubilee for Joachim, he was presented with "an exceptionally fine" Stradivarius, made in 1715, called "Il Cremonese". (Joachim was born in 1831, so in 1889 he would have been aged about 58.) I will search further for confirmation of what other notable violins Joachim may have owned. Marlindale (talk) 18:23, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the same book, I found no occurrences of the following names, among those listed as luthiers having made instruments owned by Joachim: Guadagnini, said to have been the third-greatest-ever luthier after Stradivari and Guarneri; Carlo Testore; Aranyi; de Barreau; Gasparo Bertolotti; Charles Jean Baptiste Collin-Mezin; Domenico Montagnana; Ruggeri; Tielke; Alfred Stelzner Marlindale (talk) 00:13, 11 December 2016 (UTC) Montagnana mainly made cellos, not violins or violas. Marlindale (talk) 00:39, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In the 2013 Ruprecht Kamlah article, in German, it is said that in the biography of Joachim by Andreas Moser, the reader (there also) learns little or nothing about what violins Joachim played or owned. Marlindale (talk) 18:26, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In 1889 the 50 years' jubilee of Joachim's artistic career was being celebrated. In 1899 was an observance of the 60-year jubilee, when many of Joachim's students of string playing came from all over the world to Berlin.The index of the Moser 1901 biography of Joachim has an index giving only p. 325 for "Guarnerius". Pp. 324-325 are about the 1899 jubilee and refers to violins by Guarneri and others owned by those in attendance, not necessarily by Joachim himself. Marlindale (talk) 22:14, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article Fritz Kreisler says: "Kreisler owned several antique violins crafted by luthiers Antonio Stradivari, Pietro Guarneri, Giuseppe Guarneri, and Carlo Bergonzi, most of which eventually came to bear his name."

The article Jascha Heifetz has a list of "Notable instruments": "Dolphin 1714 Stradivarius", "Heifetz-Piel 1731 Stradivarius", "Antonio Stradivari 1734", "Giovanni Battista Guadagnini, Piacenza 1741", "ex-David 1742 Guarneri", ""Guarneri 1746".

For each of the three violinists, one may ask to what degree instruments they owned were notable in their biographies. Maybe for Joachim, the most notable are those presented to him at jubilees. Marlindale (talk) 00:20, 27 November 2016 (UTC) Marlindale (talk) 00:23, 11 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References citing Tarisio (cozio.com) are not necessarily backed up by verifiable sources. Accordingly I propose to shorten the section to include just such source material. Marlindale (talk) 21:40, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

60-year jubilees[edit]

One thing I tried to do today is to distinguish the 60-year anniversary, in 1899, of Joachim's debut recital, and the 60-year anniversary in 1904 of his first concert in England. Marlindale (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Gisela von Arnim[edit]

The short WP article on her does not mention Joachim. It says she was a writer, mainly of fairy tales. Swafford's bio of Brahms says Joachim at one stage was "lovesick" about her but later got over it. For now, I don't see a reason to mention her in the article? Marlindale (talk) 00:16, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Joachim "Has given up composing," per Brahms, 1887?[edit]

Brahms did write that, as quoted by Gal. But Joachim wrote some WoO pieces in the 1890s, listed under "Original compositions." Marlindale (talk) 22:12, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wasielewski[edit]

At the end of the section on Joachim's students is the statement "Other pupils are mentioned by Wilhelm Joseph von Wasielewski in his book "Die Violine und Ihre Meister."" That book, in German, is a Google book. I tried searching for "Joachim" in it and found it on p. 425 in an index, which gives p. 347. I was unable though to get any names of students this way and in fact only just the above minimal mentions of Joachim himself. Paganini is mentioned on over 20 pages as one would expect. I have not found the year of publication of Wasielewski. It may have been too early to have much about Joachim. I think the mention is not useful and am inclined to delete it. Marlindale (talk) 00:52, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Responses: the first external link at issue is about a chair on which Joachim is seated in a photograph. The chair is said to be in the museum of the University of Edinburgh. It seems to me that this chair itself is of little or no musical importance. I suppose the mention of it with reference and link might be omitted without loss.

After looking at the link on Wayback Machine I decided to keep it despite imperfections. Marlindale (talk) 22:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]


The other reference and link are about a violin made by Johannes Theodorus Cuypers 1807, which Joachim is said to have bought in the mid-19th century and which is said to have been played by Fritz Kreisler in a 1955 Carnegie Hall concert. The WP article Fritz Kreisler has a list of 13 "notable instruments" (violins) which has no footnotes nor any mention of Cuypers. But one might try to look up this violin via cozio.com. Marlindale (talk) 21:12, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The violin maker Cuypers, also spelled Cuijpers, is mentioned on websites Tarisio (cozio.com) and other auction houses Christie's and Sotheby's. Cuijpers is said to have lived from 1724 to 1808 and worked in The Hague. The violin at issue dates from 1807, when he was 78, a year before his death. I didn't find documentation regarding Joachim snd much later, Kreisler, having owned a Cuijpers violin. Marlindale (talk) 23:00, 28 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling of Zǚrich (Zurich)[edit]

In the title of the WP article, the spelling with an umlaut over the u is primary; without it, secondary. Marlindale (talk) 23:52, 23 June 2017 (UTC) Unfortunately though in the editing of this entry, the umlaut is replaced by what looks like an x? Marlindale (talk) 23:52, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, could you explain why this change was necessary? It should be Zurich here or of there is not a good reason than Zürich...the current version is false...Can I help with something if there's a problem with a special charachter?(KIENGIR (talk) 21:10, 24 June 2017 (UTC))[reply]

I wouldn't say the change was necessary, but it's a change from a non-preferred to a preferred spelling. I don't understand the second sentence of your post, maybe you could explain it? About a "special character", neither u, nor u with an umlaut over it, is special, but in edit mode, I saw something unusual, as a I mentioned, but it's not important, what matters is the finished product. Marlindale (talk) 13:55, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we misundertand each other...so now this form I see: "Zůrich" that seems for me obviously wrong...Zurich would be proper in English, or we prefer "German" context of the article, than Zürich...if there is a special reason for the current form I even don't know how to call, please explain to me. Thanks(KIENGIR (talk) 23:03, 25 June 2017 (UTC))[reply]

If in "Search Wikipedia" one types in the name of the city, as in English, "Zurich", one sees that the title of the article is "Zǖrich", and only as a secondary title in parentheses (Zurich) without umlaut. That being the case, the umlaut seems not "obviously wrong". It might be argued though that the primary name of the city in English, to be used as the main title of the WP article on it, should be "Zurich" without umlaut. If you and/or others want to do that, it seems to me you should discuss it on the talk page of the article about the city, and if the change were made, then it might also be made in the Joachim article. Marlindale (talk) 23:28, 25 June 2017 (UTC) I see that there has already been extensive discussion of the spelling in the article on the city. It seems that discussion may have been closed? Marlindale (talk) 23:39, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think somethig is messed up with the charachters, in the article - as we discussed - the "Zůrich", here in the discussion title "Zǚrich", both are false. I have to revise myself in that way, that currently in the English wiki, the article name of the city is "Zürich", and yes, the discussion is over and final. Thus, I did not consider that the umlaut would be wrong - I would have considered as the genuine Swiss/German usage - but now "Zürich" won over "Zurich". I think it is something with your charachters....since "Zürich" (Zurich with umlaut) is not equal with "Zůrich", that is in the article ("ů" != "ü")....can I put and correct to "Zürich"?(KIENGIR (talk) 21:11, 26 June 2017 (UTC))[reply]
Yes, please try that and I hope we can agree on the result. Marlindale (talk) 00:58, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, I believe the character is correct now in the article. Marlindale (talk) 03:39, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, Regards!(KIENGIR (talk) 20:59, 28 June 2017 (UTC))[reply]

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Meandering /Irrelevant[edit]

These sentences have no real bearing on anything and should be deleted "In the journal Neue Zeitschrift fůr Musik Robert Schumann was highly enthusiastic about Felix Mendelssohn, on which Moser writes "Only in Haydn's admiration for Mozart does the history of music know a parallel case of such ungrudging veneration of one great artist for his equal."[11] The section on Beethoven’s late quartets is similarly in need of pruning. The topic is Joseph Joachim, not classical music. Orthotox (talk) 11:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a brilliant article. The assessment process is not working.[edit]

I read the Joachim article because I just published a new article on The Dutch Trio who once invited Prof. Joachim to play with them. The concert was in March 1903 and I uploaded the poster of the event. The Joachim article is very good. I think it should be submitted for an A class review. All the start class assessments are from 2008. Despite substantial improvements since, the assessments have not been adjusted. To my mind, it is beyond B class now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruud Buitelaar (talk • contribs) 01:20, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bowing technique?[edit]

Edmund Severn, a new stub, says "he later studied music in Berlin. There he studied the Joachim bowing technique.". The article Violin_technique does not mention Joachim except that a book is listed in the "References": "Karl Courvoisier, The Technique of Violin Playing: The Joachim Method, Dover Publications 2006". It seems to be a reprint of an 1897 book. Googling "Joachim bowing" finds quite a few references. Perhaps someone knowledgeable about Joachim could add something about his bowing technique to this article, with incoming redirects from perhaps Joachim bowing technique, Joachim Method and/or whatever else seems appropriate? And maybe a mention in Violin_technique#Bowing_techniques if he is significant in that area? PamD 15:52, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Karl Courvoisier is in WikiData and has an article in Swedish wiki at sv:Charles Courvoisier. PamD 15:55, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

section death missing[edit]

I (no native speaker) appreciate that most articles in the English Wikipedia contain such a section.

this page maybe a base for that.

Desiderat: his Cause of death. LDV-GS (talk) 16:43, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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