Talk:Kagu

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WikiProject Melanesia / New Caledonia  (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
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Rated as C -referencing could do with some buffing and ecology info can be added. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

recent edits[edit]

I welcome the bulk of your recent edits, Sabine's Sunbird. I have restored the name cagou to the text since it is the native spelling and is also found in English usage. Its placement has nothing to do with priority over the species name. It belongs directly after Kagu since it is the transl(iter)ation of that very word, not of the scientific name.

The original image which you replaced due to its being of washed out color was added to illustrate the bird's crest. I understand your complaint, and thus have uploaded a detail of your image which shows the bird more clearly.

μηδείς (talk) 22:15, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

We don't typically put the foreign names of birds in the first line of the lead, even if the species is endemic to a single language area, unless the name is typically used in English. See Madeira Firecrest (endemic to a Spainis island), White-eyed River Martin (Endemic to Thailand), Greater Yellow-headed Vulture and Andean Condor (bothendemic to Spanish-speaking Latin America), Zapata Rail (Endemic to Cuba), Crested Shelduck (endemic to Korea), Djibouti Francolin (endemic to Djibouti), and Red Warbler (endemic to Mexico) for examples of GAs and FAs that conform to this pattern of not putting foreign names not also used in English in the lead. There is a case for mentioning that the name comes from Kavu and Kagou in Kanak somewhere in the text (via the French or not, I need to find out). As for the image, the cropped one is better than the washed out one but has lost the EV of the scientist feeding it. Sabine's Sunbird talk 22:47, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
But the spelling cagou certainly is used in English, and there has been a redirect from that spelling to this article for years. This is a unique bird and it in no way harms the article to treat it as such.
As for the picture showing interaction with a human, I would describe it more as a bird standing passively while a human attempts to interact with it - but in any case I see absolutely no problem adding a thumbnail link to it as part of a gallery at the bottom of the article. Would that we only had better free images showing the bird's display.μηδείς (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Cagou is used sometimes in English but is the much rarer and more archaic usage. It isn't used in any of the books or journals I am using to write the article, being mentioned only as an alternative name. If it is to be included in the lead as an alternative name then the lead should read "The Kagu, or Cagou, Rhynochetos jubatus, is a crested," or "The Kagu, (French: Cagou), Rhynochetos jubatus, is a crested," or more accurately, "The Kagu, (French: Kagou huppé), Rhynochetos jubatus, is a crested," which is the formal named used for the species in French according to Wikipedia FR and HBW. However we don't know yet if the etymology of the name comes from Kanak via the French or directly from Kanak, so including either French name for etymological reasons is speculation at this point.
Standing passively? That is how Kagu feed. They stay motionless until they dart forward to snatch prey. The bird is clearly looking at the person and has probably approached them. And no to a gallery if we can possibly help it, galleries are not great for FA worthy articles. I hope, once I've gotten the article up to standard, to ask people with better photographs if we can use them. These kind of requests are much easier if the article is good. Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Is there any chance we can discuss this and then make the changes once we have some kind of agreement? You still haven't made the case for why we need a French translation in this instance when we usually don't. If your reasoning is that the name is also used in English we should go with it as an English word, not a French one. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:55, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
You said on your talk page I am not sure what further comments you are looking for. I unbolded the alt spelling cagou as per your suggestion. (I'll answer here per your wishes) This was one of three possible suggestions, and one that I expressed reservations over the second and third ones because the etymology wasn't certainly French. Now we know it isn't, there is no justification in retaining it for that reason, thus the only reason is either because the name is commonly used in English (it isn't, and doesn't even register on the OED). Per WP:LEAD, "Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line." We have that section now, so we don't need the alternative name, in French or English, in the lead anymore. Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

refs[edit]

I've checked the refs, fixed some. Two books lack page numbers, and the range for Warner doesn't make sense. The San Diego Zoo ref needs to be properly formatted, and I would suggest putting comments, like your last ref, in a separate "notes" section Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:33, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Of course the Warner article doesn't make sense, it was written before 1950, when numbers were finally made sequential! Seriously, I still need to migrate some of the citations to templates, and fix stuff like that. This is still in the early stages of heading towards FAness, but it is my first project now that I've recovered. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:56, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

etymology[edit]

Etymology sections are usually the first subsection of an article after the lead. I suggest we move the subsection above classification. In any case, it definitely needs to be its own section, not a part of classification, to which it does not belong.μηδείς (talk) 23:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Because etymological information is related to classification in the explanation of the scientific name, we often include that type of information in the Taxonomy and classification section (see Zapata Rail or Golden White-eye). Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:05, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
Medeis, I agree with Sabine's Sunbird - unless a bird has a huge and intricate discussion on the derivation and meaning of its name, the information is usually insufficient to have a beefed up section, and one ends up with choppy flow and stubby sections. Bird names are in almost all cases tied up with discussions on taxnomy and hence the most practical way I have found is a taxonomy section which discusses both common and scientific names, classification (i.e. relationships with other species) and subspecies (relationships within itself). Cladistic material also is lenked to evolutionary material so having an evolution subsection here is good too. I really like the idea of trying to keep pages with uniform heading names and arrangements where possible, unless content dictates otherwise. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:35, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
I am not asking to expand the section. And the etymology section is already entirely separate from the classification section, so questions of flow make no sense. I could see a discussion of the name placed under the classification heading in a case where generic boundaries were unclear, or where there was a popular controversy, such as with Brontosaurus. But here is no logical connection between the etymology section and the macroclassification of the genus. I will happily go along with any extant policy on bird articles if you can point to one, but otherwise the standard order is etymology (or terminology, nomenclature) as its own subsection and first in order, for which see badger, dinosaur, snake, frog, duck, goose . . . μηδείς (talk) 00:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Someone is using the worst bird article ever as an example of how to do things? Heh. Anyhoo, we don't really have policy in general when it comes to birds. We aren't spectacularly consistent either. In the past I've personally included it in as I've done in this article or as in albatross had a separate section in "relationship with humans" at the bottom of the article, the section of which is as yet undeveloped for this article. Typically I tend to worry about the exact arrangement of the article at the end. Sabine's Sunbird talk 00:45, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Look, it would be very helpful if you would lay your cards out on the table, and adopt a more collegial attitude. Comments like "worst article ever, ...Anyhoo" come across as very catty and condescending. Next should I expect you to start sighing at me? So far, your objections to the spelling Cagou in the lead made absolutely no sense to me, and the fact that you have apparently decided to make this a featured article has only become apparent inadvertently, but it does explain what seems to me like ownership behaviour on your part. I am not trying to stand in your way. Can you please just explain exactly what you want to do, and even better - point to some articles which you think embody how this one should be done?

As for me, my personal interests are both biological and linguistic and my specific interest here is because the Kagu is an outlier. Outliers fascinate me. Specifically, I found and used a picture of the Kagu (which I have long loved from afar) and started paying attention to the article when I used the bird in my hook for Geography of New Caledonia:

μηδείς (talk) 06:45, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Cards on the table then...
  • Much as I hate to wikilwayer.... Per WP:LEAD Alternatively, if there are more than two alternative names, these names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section; it is recommended that this be done if there are at least three alternate names, or there is something notable about the names themselves. Once such a section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. We have a section on etymology. Thus alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line.
  • I have provided many examples of how WP:Bird has interpreted that guideline above. Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:33, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Medeis, I am glad someone is expanding the article. Given New Caledonia has French as a language, I am not so fussed about Cagou being there, and am not bothered by etymology being a subsection within naming. I did minor things such as switch "Habitat and distribution" around so it matches other bird articles. Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

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