Talk:Katsuji Matsumoto

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Early Career[edit]

Fixed some chronological errors and a mis-attribution of the magazine in which Poku-chan was published. Matt Thorn (talk) 06:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


Added photo of Matsumoto. Matt Thorn (talk) 06:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

An Introduction from Matsumoto's Daughter[edit]

Matsumoto's youngest daughter, Michie, introduced this article in her July 24, 2008 "Kuru-chan's Diary" blog entry. I'm happy to report that she's quite pleased with it.


Added photo of bamboo figurines designed by Matsumoto in his later years. Am looking for help identifying the proper license tag for the image! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt Thorn (talkcontribs) 09:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Article Rating[edit]

Thanks to the Biography and Anime and manga people for the rating. Does anyone have any concrete suggestions for how to raise the rating to a "B"? This is the first (and so far only) Wikipedia article I ever created from scratch, and any advice would be very much appreciated. Matt Thorn (talk) 12:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it needs more footnotes, the images need to argue their case (ask Nihonjoe for help? I'm not strong on images), the problem of the personal communication needs to be addressed (it falls foul of WP:VERIFY, but you wouldn't want to betray her trust by publishing the letters on your website...). Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Assessment may give you some more general ideas as to how to improve the rating. I think the article's got potential to be a "Good Article", not just a B. -Malkinann (talk) 23:13, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Malkinann! Much appreciated. Matt Thorn (talk) 03:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Improvements (?)[edit]

I provided fair-use rationales for the images used, and added details about personal communications with Utsuhara that should improve their verifiability. I still need to link referenced materials to specific lines in the article through footnotes. Now I'm determined to achieve "Good Article" status! I suppose in order to provide a basis for assessing importance, though, I need to create other articles on other prominent illustrators (e.g., Jun'ichi Nakahara, Kashō Takabatake, Hikozō Itō) and manga creators of the period (e.g., Noboru Ōshiro, Keizō Shimada), and perhaps on article on Japanese illustration in general. (Wow.) Maybe even an article on shōjo magazines in general. (Double Wow.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt Thorn (talkcontribs) 04:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Use of images[edit]

In response to Rettetast's posting of a warning about image use on this page, I have added the contact information of the copyright holder, who has given me explicit, written permission to use the images, to the fair-use rationale on each image. I also asked Rettetast to explain the warning. It would be ironic and sad if the images were deleted when the copyright owner has expressed delight with both the article and the use of the images. Indeed, she has promoted the article on her blog and in other public forums. Copies of e-mail correspondence (in Japanese) along with English translations can be provided if necessary. Matt Thorn (talk) 11:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I have not received a response from Rettetast regarding the warning he posted. I believe use of the images is compliant with Wikipedia standards, and if I do not hear from Rettetast or someone else explaining the rationale for the warning within two or three days, I will remove it myself. Matt Thorn (talk) 06:46, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed warning. Matt Thorn (talk) 10:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Adding references, deleting original research[edit]

I'm in the process of adding citations for factual information and published analysis. I'm also (though it pains me) deleting original research, which is all my own. I'm shooting for "Good Article" status here. Any advice or suggestions would be very welcome. Thanks. Matt Thorn (talk) 05:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. I think. How does it look? Matt Thorn (talk) 08:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
I will add a full review on Monday, pop a note on my talk page if I forget. G.A.S 21:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! Matt Thorn (talk) 07:20, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
Matt, if it pains you to delete your original research on Matsumoto, perhaps you could consider blogging about it? That way it's not hidden away, you see. -Malkinann (talk) 03:17, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Malkinann. I think I'll do that. Matt Thorn (talk) 05:37, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


As promised, I have reviewed the article. Find the comment below. (Feel free to reply below each one, instead of in a new group). [note: I will add more items later, I am out of time] G.A.S 05:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Thanks for the detailed feedback, G.A.S. I'll get on it right away. Matt Thorn (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
  • "acclaimed and influential"
  • "pioneering"
  • "extremely [popular]"
  • "famous [Kawabata Art School]"
  • "major"
  • "extremely [stylised]"
  • "most popular and influential illustrators working"
  • "no one was more popular"—The text needs to go beyond a citation in this case, and mention "according to..."
Yes check.svg Done Matt Thorn (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • The article is in need of copy editing:
  • "(Although he generally wrote his given name in hiragana, かつぢ, his legal given name, pronounced the same, was written in kanji, 勝治.)"—This need not be in brackets, but it also seems out of place in the current section.
  • "While still attending what was then called Rikkyō (St. Paul's) Middle School (today known as Rikkyō (St. Paul's) Junior & Senior High School in Ikebukuro),..."
  • Sentence structure needs work as it is difficult to follow. I would add the part about the current name as a footnote, it does not seem relevant to explain this in the article.
  • Do we know his age at this time? The sentence would work better as "At the age of x, while still attending..., Matsumoto..."
  • Use {{nihongo}} to write the schools name, e.g. St. Paul's Middle School (...中学校 Rikkyō chūgakkō?)
So should I use {{nihongo}} every time I use Japanese in the article? Matt Thorn (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I would recommend it, esp. where there is an English translation. (Per MOS-JAPAN, you should provide the Japanese text and Romanji, except if you link to an article where it is provided). G.A.S 17:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I like {{Nihongo3}} better for this purpose... it gives the romaji first and presents the English translation as just a translation, not the true name of the thing? (Does that make sense???) -Malkinann (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Makes sense to me. I'll do it. But what should I use in the case of names, which have no translation? Matt Thorn (talk) 13:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
{{Nihongo3}} is fine: Always add the romanji and the Japanese text; and the English translation only if available. G.A.S 14:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done (I think.) Matt Thorn (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Move the part in brackets to a footnote. ("middle school" referred to...)
Yes check.svg Done Matt Thorn (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • You could consider a dual footnote system such as the one used in Che Guevara, but I am unsure whether that system is still in use. Otherwise, use the normal <ref>'''Title:''' Explanation...</ref> system.
There's a possible method described here, the main drawback being that when you want to add a reference to a footnote, the code is scary! -Malkinann (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I'll take a look. Matt Thorn (talk) 13:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Matt Thorn (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • "It was here that"→"Matsumoto first ventured into manga in Shōjo Gahō..."
  • "featuring a lively Chinese girl named Poku-chan (irregularly published between November 1930 and march 1934)"—incorporate the part in brackets into the sentence.
Yes check.svg Done -Malkinann (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! Matt Thorn (talk) 13:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
  • "But the protagonist here is a young girl who protects the poor peasants from the cruel and greedy nobles."→"The protagonist of ... is ... who ..."—do not begin sentences with "but", "here" is not needed.. Add a bit more detail about this work.
I'm not sure how much more detail could be added, Matt? It's only 16 pages long... -Malkinann (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I'll have to go look at it again in the International Institute for Children's Literature in Osaka. They only let me photocopy the first half, and I can't recall the second half. (^^;) Matt Thorn (talk) 13:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Examples of information: How does she protect them? What is the conclusion of the story? G.A.S 14:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
  • " "camera angles," "—use logical quotation (comma outside quote, unless you quote an entire sentence); citations are required for all quotations. (put cite immediately after the quotation.)
  • Is "The Mysterious Clover" a work or a quote? If it is the former, put it in italics and remove the quotation marks, if it is the former, cite it.
Yes check.svg Done -Malkinann (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! Matt Thorn (talk) 13:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
  • ""Kurukuru"--くるくる--means "spinning" or "winding", "-chan"--ちゃん--is a diminutive honorific that can be translated as "little" or "dear"."—Put it in a footnote.
Yes check.svg Done Matt Thorn (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • The article needs much more references (and books require page references as well).
In cases where I use the same source for multiple references, I can of course add page numbers specific to each reference. Is this what you mean by more references? Should I add more detailed bibliographic info for each of his works I refer to? Beyond his works themselves, I'm not sure how many more sources I can dig up about Matsumoto beyond what's in the notes and further reading. Matt Thorn (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes, page references should do the trick. G.A.S 17:28, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done (I think.) Matt Thorn (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Reference 3: I think using {{Cite interview}} should be appropriate.
I took a look at the template and gave it a try, but the template does not seem to account for e-mail interviews, let alone unpublished ones, and the result was not, it seemed to me, very informative. Maybe I'm overlooking some way to use the existing fields in the template. Any suggestions? Matt Thorn (talk) 05:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • "This was not an unusual practice before the end of World War II."—cite.
Yes check.svg Done Matt Thorn (talk) 05:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
If it turns out we need more explicit citations for this, this says grandsons were adopted (albeit in 19th century rural areas), and this says the practice of adopting heirs declined after WWII. -Malkinann (talk) 07:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I could find better sources if I had access to nice English-language university library, but I don't, and I don't want to pay for an on-line article like the second on that may turn out be both irrelevant and uninteresting. The Japanese-language Wikipedia article on the ie family system talks about adopting grandsons, but, typically for the Japanese Wikipedia, includes zero citations. Grrr!! Matt Thorn (talk) 10:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • "most famous work"—cite.
Yes check.svg Done Matt Thorn (talk) 05:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • "four heads tall"—add conversions.
Yes check.svg Done I've linked this to figure drawing - drawing people's bodies by "head count" is a popular pedagogy. -Malkinann (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Brilliant solution. I was wondering how to deal with this one, and would never have thought of that. Thanks again! Matt Thorn (talk) 13:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
  • "When I was a child, [Matsumoto's baby] goods were all the rage, so much so that it is no exaggeration to say they were everywhere." —cite
Matt, what happened to the citation for this? I thought it was in there before? -Malkinann (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I accidentally deleted it somewhere along the way. It's back in now. Matt Thorn (talk) 13:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Matt Thorn (talk) 05:47, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • "Combi" (External link)—link internally (if possible), put the external link in "External links", or as a citation (if possible).
  • A lot of facts should be expanded on
    • "For this work, Matsumoto was given a commendation by the Shizuoka Prefectural government." Add more information, it seems to be a random fact at this stage, it should be possible to add at least two more sentences. (E.g. when, where, did he attend the ceremony...)
I added a citation, but have not been able to find more detailed information, even from Katsuji's daughter. Matt Thorn (talk) 05:49, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Another thing that we might like to think about is Wikipedia:Red link - is it realistic to think Wikipedia might in the future have an article on those topics that are red linked? You don't have to immediately run around and make stubs for them all, but it is useful to think about the potential of those red-linked articles related to Matsumoto. -Malkinann (talk) 00:08, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll get rid of most of the red ink: there's probably just three or four that I think will probably get articles in the foreseeable future. Matt Thorn (talk) 13:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Matt Thorn (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I've done some major clean-up, though I'm not finished adding page numbers for all references. I'm too tired right now to go through and check off the "To Do" items, but I'll try to do it soon. Matt Thorn (talk) 04:50, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Matt Thorn (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Automated "peer review" suggestions[edit]

This might seem silly, but if the goal for this article is GA, it might be worthwhile looking at these automated review suggestions, as they help to pick up on matters of "style" that can be missed by human eyes, and some editors may insist on having these fixed as part of Good Article Criterion 1b. On the user script that let me perform this automated review, there is an option to automate some re-formatting, but I haven't done this yet as some people find it rude. -Malkinann (talk) 06:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC) The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Malkinann (talk) 06:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Malkinann! I'll get on it immediately. Matt Thorn (talk) 14:29, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Done! I think. How does it look? Matt Thorn (talk) 15:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Great! The only things that crop up when I re-run the script are "lead needs to be longer" (can we break it up into two paragraphs at all? If one actually reads the lead and reads the article, it sums things up pretty well...) also "no caps in titles unless they're proper nouns" (they are proper nouns...) and "copyedit me!" (which crops up every time...) So that's that out of the way, phew! -Malkinann (talk) 20:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

B Class review[edit]

(Version Reviewed) Per request at Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Assessment, here is the B class review. Regards, G.A.S 14:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

  • B1=Y, Though some formatting issues remains before the article goes to GA review.
  • B2=Y
  • B3=N: (1) Lead is too short, and should cover all major aspects of the article. (2) Sections 3 The Mysterious Clover to 6 Children's books and infant merchandise should have a common header, replace the current H2 headers (== ==) with H3 (=== ===)headers.
  • B4=Y
  • B5=Y, Though all images' FUR should be updated to use {{Non-free use rationale}}
  • B6=Y
Thanks, G.A.S! This is a big help. Matt Thorn (talk) 15:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Matt, let me know how I can help with this article. I'd suggest first getting it to a clear B-level first and then getting it peer reviewed (not the automatic one, but comments by a variety of editors). The lead is certainly one place to improve things, as G.A.S. just said. Titles and publishers of his work should be added to the lead (aas footnotes, like we've been doing for the Death Note entry. The whole article also needs more in-text citations. My own rule of thumb is one reference per substantive statement. I'll try to dig out more on him. Timothy Perper (talk) 17:03, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
I disagree that the lead is too short - Wikipedia:LEAD#Length suggests a length of one to two paragraphs for an article under 15000 characters, two to three for an article of 32 KB. This article is currently less than 23000 characters long and it is 24.3 KB. Moreover, the lead mentions a lot - The Mysterious Clover, Kurumi, his later illustrations, baby merchandise, and his estate. The only topics that aren't so well covered in the lead are his early life, early career, and his marriage, also his retirement and death. The lead should cover what Matsumoto is notable for, which it does. -Malkinann (talk) 20:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Malkinann. I think it can be tightened up and streamlined, with a couple of new references, but it says what it needs to say. I think I'll look at the references for the lead and see what can be done. Timothy Perper (talk) 22:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The amount of paragraphs are fine, but they lack "meat", in my opinion. They can be expanded a Bit. G.A.S 05:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't follow this. Can you give an example of what could be added? Timothy Perper (talk) 05:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Found what I was looking for and added the two references. They're also listed as external links, which is fine. It still needs a reference for the museum. Timothy Perper (talk) 22:52, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

There are two Katsuji Matsumoto[edit]

One of them, "Katsuji Matsumoto (松本かつぢ? 1904 – 1986) was a Japanese illustrator and shōjo manga artist" (from this article). The footnote says "Although he generally wrote his given name in hiragana, かつぢ, his legal given name, pronounced the same, was written in kanji, 勝治."

The other was an animation director who worked on the Sailor Moon anime and other TV anime. For this Katsuji Matsumoto, see, where it says:

Family name (in kanji): 松本
Given name (in kanji): 勝次 --- note that the second kanji is different from the other Katsuji Matsumoto.

If you google "Katsuji Matsumoto" you'll get mostly the second one plus a few refs to Matt's work and to this Wiki article. I'll add this to a footnote. Timothy Perper (talk) 17:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

More Material?[edit]

Two things here, both stimulated by GAS's comments in the B-class review. For the Introduction, we can add a paragraph at the end about Matsumoto's style of drawing and its elegant mixing of traditional Japanese aesthetics with a modern ("Western") sensibility. We could also add that to the body of the text if there are references. What strikes me about Matsumoto's work is a combination of "delicacy" -- a matter of a clear line, muted or subtle coloring, and design -- with what I, at least, think of as a result of his interacting with Western art (Modigliani comes to mind). So a section on Aesthetics would make a nice addition. Matt, do you have references to this kind of art-historical stuff? Timothy Perper (talk) 15:30, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

That should do it quite nicely—Mark the article as B class when done;) G.A.S 15:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Timothy Perper (talk) 16:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll see what I can find. Matt Thorn (talk) 15:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


I see the only "B" test this article hasn't passed is "Structure". Any suggestions on how to improve it? Thanks in advance. Matt Thorn (talk) 16:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

G.A.S. just said -- immediately above, in a comment before this section -- that all the article needs is some material on aesthetics and stylistics of Matsumoto's work. That means a new paragraph in the Intro plus a new section in the main text. Timothy Perper (talk) 17:35, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I wasn't sure "Structure" referred to aesthetics issue. Most of what I've found so far has emphasized the cheerful and humorous atmosphere of his work, rather than his art style per se, which is odd, since it is recognizable at a glance. I'll keep digging. Matt Thorn (talk) 02:47, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, that's what G.A.S. said -- see above. Yes, that is odd. Matsumoto's work is quite characteristic. I'll supply some general references about Japanese art when we get around to writing the new material. I'd like to find something that links him to Western "high art," especially the Moderns. I'd suggest breaking out all this material into a separate section called "Aesthetics." Timothy Perper (talk) 06:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
The only concrete thing I've come across is his attempt to travel to Paris. One source said he did so because Paris was the capitol of the art world. I agree that his particular way of abstracting facial features, particularly in his more "cartoony" work, is strongly reminiscent of Modigliani. In his own writings, he was always self-effacing and unpretentious. He speaks with admiration of his "sempai", Kōji Fukiya, praises his "kōhai", Jun'ichi Nakahara, and speaks with gratitude of his editors and teachers, but I get the impression he would be embarrassed to dare to compare himself with the "high artists" who no doubt influenced him. If anything has been written about him from the perspective of aesthetics or art history, I have found it yet. Endoh writes without iron that, while Nakahara tried to incorporate the sensitivity of Beardsley, Matsumoto "aggressively made the cheerful world, color, and touch of Disney his own." In an English-language article, that would come off as a left-handed compliment at best, but it also doesn't make much sense when you consider that she is talking specifically of the period around 1938, and the fact that no feature-length Disney film was released in Japan prior to 1950. In 1938, the only Disney films known to Japanese audiences were the Mickey Mouse shorts, and it's hard to see how they could have influenced Matsumoto more than they did any other Japanese cartoonist or illustrator of the time. The search for citable work making concrete comparisons to Matsumoto and "high art", beyond my own highly subjective comparison to Art Deco in my 2006 conference lecture, may prove fruitless. If we need that sort of thing to make this article a "B," it may not be possible. I could pull the various references to his style that are already included into a separate section, but the result might not be something that could be appropriately titled "Aesthetics." Matt Thorn (talk) 07:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, let's not give up so soon, not that you're giving up... How about some general references to the topic of Art Deco influences on pre-WW2 manga and manga-like art? ("Manga-like" is intended to cover all my bases!) The travel to Paris source is a starting point. How about something that says that many Japanese artists in the 1920s-1930s were affected by European modernism? Disney is NOT the source of this style, absolutely not. There may be material lurking under Japonisme in the French literature about Japanese art.

One reason I'd like to see that kind of material is to undermine -- yes, I have an agenda -- the view that of course the major influences on manga were American cartoonists like Fleischer and Disney, and that those influences came after World War 2. As part of an entirely different, well, not entirely different, research project, I've been trying to identify the origins and sources of how women and girls are portrayed in modern manga (ca 1990s and later). Yes, that takes us back to American sources -- pretty, curly-haired sweetiepies like Shirley Temple -- but we need, I think, go back beyond the knee-jerk Americanism of such comments. "Mahoutsukai Sarii," by Mitsuteru Yokoyama, is an example; for some US commentators, Sally could only be a copy of something American. I'm not suggesting that Matsumoto was a direct source of Sally, but I am saying that the history of these portrayals, including Sally, goes back much further than the Americanism of an automatic reference to Disney would suggest. My impression of Japanese artists like Matsumoto was that they were avid viewers of European art, absorbing it, modifying it, adapting it, and so on. The similarity to Modigliani is not an accident, but, I think, a clear example of transnationalism before WW2. (The French were, and are, still just as enthusiastic about Japanese art as Japanese artists were about French/Italian modernism.)

Are we on the same wavelength here? I think we are, and if so, I think we can concoct some sourced discussion of the world of Matsumoto's art -- which may be a better title for a section than "Aesthetics."

Timothy Perper (talk) 08:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

We're on the same wavelength. The image we have of shoujo manga today has little connection to any American influence I can think of. The problem is, I think, the knee-jerk formulation of "Tezuka revered Disney (true) + Tezuka invented shoujo manga (false) = American influence (false)." Illustrator Jun'ichi Nakahara casts a far greater shadow over today's shoujo manga than does Tezuka, and he lived in Paris during his most influential period in the 1950s. Matsumoto may never have studied in Paris, but there's no doubt that he, Nakahara, Fukiya, and practically every other major shoujo illustrator of the pre-war period were far more influenced by European artists than by American animation or comics. The pre-war manga artists were mostly influenced by American newspaper strips, but that style of cartooning was completely purged from shoujo manga by the late 1960s. The "modern" shoujo manga artists took Tezuka's formal approach, married it to the aesthetics of Nakahara, Matsumoto, Fukiya and other illustrators, and came up with something completely new. IMHO. I'll see what I can find to bolster this POV without straying too far from the topic and maintaining NPOV. Matt Thorn (talk) 09:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Yup. I can contribute some general references to Japanese art and/or Japonisme to the mix. A section called "Aesthetic Influences of Matsumoto's Art" might cover it. Personally, I loathe the word "influence" -- it says nothing -- but it will get their attention. I gave a paper -- in absentia -- at a Tokyo University conference in 2007 that describes/illustrates some of the modalities for portraying women in modern manga, and I would dearly have loved to include some of Matsumoto's work in it. If you email me a snail mail address, I can send you a DVD with the talk on it, plus lots of slides -- it's a Powerpoint presentation. My email contact info is on my user page. Timothy Perper (talk) 14:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)