Talk:Khirbat Al-Burj, Haifa

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WP:RS[edit]

Though interesting, I´m somewhat doubtful that an item from an auction -catalogue qualifies as WP:RS, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:25, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Appears like an authentic document and mentions the locality. However regarding establishment, we could remove it and use sources from Binyamina. Infinity Knight (talk) 19:39, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Conflicting sources[edit]

@Huldra:., Khalidi can not be stated as a matter of fact, since the sources disagree. The location was not populated according to 1945 census. Also Frantzman source is skeptical about Khalidi's findings on Kh. Al-Burj. Your edit also broke format. That's why I am revering it. Infinity Knight (talk) 20:01, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Infinity Knight: please revert: now you have removed the grid-number and the template {{Palestinian Arab villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestine War}}. Though having two {{other uses|Burj (disambiguation)}} at the top was clearly a mistake. In this case I think Khalidi is a greater authority than Frantzman (Not that Khalidi is faultless), Huldra (talk) 20:33, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra:., I'm not sure who is more authoritative Khalidi or Frantzman. When two sources disagree, we should bring both attributed claims. Besides, what should be done with 1945 census source? Infinity Knight (talk) 20:49, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Infinity Knight: Well, I first "met" Frantzman years ago, when I had to move an article he started on the West Bank village of Artas, from "Artas, Israel" (!) to Artas (village). I think what he say should be reported, but is it no excuse to remove the template, or to changing the info-box. Again: please revert, Huldra (talk) 20:59, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra:., I've already explained why your approach is wrong: when sources disagree, we can not state unattributed claims as facts. I would not mind third party opinion on this. Let's ping the creator of this page, @Dr. Blofeld:. Infinity Knight (talk) 21:12, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea, but Huldra I consider an expert on this subject and would trust her judgement fully.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:14, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well thanks, ;P and @Infinity Knight: by removing the template and changing the info-box: *you* are in effect following *one* source, namely Frantzman. I agree to quoting him, but there is no way I can consider him more authoritative than Walid Khalidi. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:20, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra:., "*one* source" is incorrect. Did you have a chance to look into 1945 census source? Also why the Palmer source was removed, it talks about the site in 1882. Additionally the format changes were lost. Infinity Knight (talk) 15:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr. Blofeld:., Did you have a chance to review the sources? Infinity Knight (talk) 21:17, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If one source says it was a Palestinian village, especially somebody respected in his field like Khalidi, I wouldn't remove the framework around those articles, even if other sources claim otherwise. I think we can allow for that. I'd restore the template but probably add (disputed) inside the template after Khirbat Al-Burj as a compromise but I doubt Huldra would agree to that.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:22, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, you are correct, I don´t think the template should change. But yeah; I think it should be noted in the article that Khalidi is disputed, Huldra (talk) 21:41, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr. Blofeld:., I am OK with marking Kh. Al-Burj as "disputed" in templates. Anyway, given conflicting sources we can not state Khalidi as a matter of fact, like we do now. Infinity Knight (talk) 15:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here is al-Burj on the map that Frantzman refers to.

The notations on the building are for a well and a minaret. Frantzman's point is that it does not look like typical villages, which appear on such maps as clusters of small buildings. Rather, it shows as a large building with three wings. However, you need to be cautious with Frantzman's remark "no indication that it was populated" since such maps do not ever indicate population. Zero^talk 03:22, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the dispute, clearly both Khalidi and Frantzman should be mentioned, but in my view Khalidi should be given primacy in the infobox since Khalidi was an experienced researcher while Frantzman was only a student. (The source mentioned here was Frantzman's PhD thesis.) I'll also note that Kh. al-Burj is frequently called a village in the official Gazette of the Palestine government. For example, in issue 475, Supplement 2, p.953 (Oct 1934) there is a notice about land settlement "in the village of Khirbat Al Burj in the Sub-District of Haifa". Zero^talk 03:22, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Palestine Post of 7 July 1947 mentions the death by car of "Jama'a Ibn Salameh Abu Hem(?) of Khirbat el Burj". Zero^talk 03:40, 19 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Zero0000:., appreciate you bringing the map. If you have sources supporting either point of view those should be brought here. However regarding "The Palestine Post of 7 July 1947 mentions" I guess you are aware there were number of localities using Burj/Bureij name. Infinity Knight (talk) 15:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there were at least four, although two of those were archaeological sites only. One of the archaeological sites was quite close to this one, at Tantura, so we must be careful. The one in the Gazette is for sure this one. Zero^talk 00:50, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, Sorry for removing the SWP source (I missed it): it has been reintroduced, (together with Palmer.) Alas; this brings another problem, as we now have two *other* sources in conflict: Boas; who say that by the mid 19th century a rest farm was built here, while SWP (in 1882) notes only "Walls and foundations without any indication of date". Huldra (talk) 20:11, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- Sure, no worries. Can not find this information in Boas, so I am removing it. Infinity Knight (talk) 02:13, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tel Burga[edit]

Archeologists call the bronze age site "Tel Burga". It was excavated by Kochavi and Golani. If no objections I will add those references later, when I have some spare time. Infinity Knight (talk) 15:48, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Infinity Knight: This is not correct. Tel Burga (Kh. Tel el Bureij) is about 1km to the east of Benyamina at 147/214 but this site is about 1km to the south at 145/213. Please undo any edits you made on the basis of this error. Zero^talk 02:50, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure? Tall or Kh. el-Bureij on the British mandate maps and in the mandatory archives. Infinity Knight (talk) 02:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, very sure. See both locations on this map. I'll also note that Khalidi gives the coordinates of the southern locality while the article you cite gives the coordinates of the eastern locality. Zero^talk 03:19, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sure I can see this on Google Maps. Infinity Knight (talk) 03:22, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally this is part of a British map, last updated in 1947, that has some stuff overprinted in a purple color by the Survey of Israel in 1955. Against Kh. al Burj you can see "הרוס" (destroyed) which appears on destroyed villages and not on mere ruins. I probably can't mention this in the article as it strays into OR, but this map indicates that Israel considered it a former village. Zero^talk 03:26, 1 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Crusader structure: here, really?[edit]

Crusader period[edit]

"A stone with Greek inscription was found at the burj site, which has been reused in a Crusader fortress." Source: C. Dauphin.
There is no other mention easily to be found, Kh. al-Burj is a common name (see for instance Crusader "Merle" (Dor, Tantura): is this one really meant? Maybe Tel Burga is meant? No online access to the relevant page in Dauphin's book. Arminden (talk) 14:55, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Arminden: Do I have your email address? Dauphin is a must-have reference for Byzantine remains. Send me mail and you'll get it. Zero^talk 15:56, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You figured me out once :) How shall I go about it? And THANKS! Arminden (talk) 17:53, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Arminden: I don't find you in my email archive. Assuming you have an email address in your preferences, you can send me mail by this link. Zero^talk 18:05, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

more information is needed[edit]

More information is needed about the 1948 situation. Khirbat al-Burj was officially a village in 1947 (proof: village list in Palestine Gazette #1552, Suppl. 2, 30 Jan 1947, p128.). But did it have a population then? Khalidi ambiguously says "The nearest Arab community to it was the large village of Qisarya, just to the west". Is there an implicit "other" before "Arab", or not? The 1948 Palestine Index Gazetteer calls it a "ruin". On the other hand, the Atlas of Palestine says there were 75 registered refugees as of 2008. One odd thing I noticed is that nearby Binyimina had an 18% Arab population in 1945. The website of the convention center is unreliable and should be ignored. Zero^talk 07:02, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits:[edit]

User:Sumanuil: if you look at the difference between your version and mine, you will see that "my" version shows just where in Israel/Palestine this place is located.

Your version does not, Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:11, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The maps aren't showing up here. All I see is a link to upload them. - Sumanuil (talk) 23:15, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Sumanuil: that is not the problem: you are removing more than that: you are also removing the location in Israel/Palestine. Please bring that location back, thanks, Huldra (talk) 23:24, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? The co-ordinates are still there. - Sumanuil (talk) 23:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Sumanuil:..but the map is not, Huldra (talk) 23:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The maps weren't there anyway, or at least they weren't showing up. - Sumanuil (talk) 23:56, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Sumanuil: I think you are having technical problems. The map is there and displays for me as well. I will put it back. Please comment here rather than reverting again (also, there is a 1RR restriction on this article that you violated already). I see a stray "225px" in the infobox that seems to come from the template; I'll try to track that down. Zero^talk 02:14, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I still can't see it, and there has to be a problem with more than my computer, as it's in the category "Articles with missing files", which is automated (and how I found this page in the first place). Are you sure everything uploaded properly? - Sumanuil (talk) 02:18, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Sumanuil: Sorry, I wasn't looking closely enough. There is no historical map series for this location. I removed that code while keeping the pushpin map. Your computer is in fine shape ;). I hope it looks ok now. Zero^talk 02:48, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It does. - Sumanuil (talk) 04:03, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I still wasn't paying enough attention. There is a historical map series for this location, but the names of the images are computed from the article name. So when this article was renamed the images were disconnected from it. I requested renaming in Commons. Zero^talk 07:46, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done, maps fixed, Huldra (talk) 20:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]