Talk:Lapot

Serbia Mid‑importance

	Serbia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Serbia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Serbia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SerbiaWikipedia:WikiProject SerbiaTemplate:WikiProject SerbiaSerbia articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Anthropology Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anthropology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Anthropology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnthropologyWikipedia:WikiProject AnthropologyTemplate:WikiProject AnthropologyAnthropology articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the importance scale.

Death Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

History Low‑importance

	History portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the subject of History on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Historyhistory articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

A fact from Lapot appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 8 August 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that in Serbian legend old people who had outlived their usefulness were ritually slain by their children in a custom known as lapot?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/August.

Wikipedia

Hang on

I have checked out the references.

1 failed verification, but #2 [1] does support the quotation.

So this is not in fact a hoax. It is generally best to check these things out before leaping to conclusions. Jezhotwells (talk) 14:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say that more than just a single book is needed to corroborate a claim like this, especially as Google scholar has no mention of it and Google searching only gives Wikipedia's entry and some self-published thing. Irbisgreif (talk) 14:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of the evidence seems to be related to this one movie, so I'm going to bring this up to a couple of noticeboards, it probably isn't a speedy candidate. Irbisgreif (talk) 15:13, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well there are two academic papers there now, so I have removed the hoax tag. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot comment on the one not in English, but the one in English says that this is an unconfirmed legend. Irbisgreif (talk) 15:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone through and made quite a few tags to assist those likely to take a look from the fringe and RS noticeboards. Irbisgreif (talk) 15:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I remnoved some inapproperiate tags: Even if it is a legend, it is not a hoax article; also there is no original research; everything is referenced from third-party sources. - Altenmann >t 15:50, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I feel that the expert tag is likely to be handy. It's the only one I replaced. Irbisgreif (talk) 15:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No such template. - Altenmann >t 16:15, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Far improved

I have to note that with this article rewritten to show that Lapot was likely just a legend, as the sources say, I find it very good and worth keeping. Irbisgreif (talk) 16:09, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have expanded as far as I am able at present. I have posted a note on the Serbia Portal talk page. I am removing the expand tag but leaving a stub tag. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Legend or what?

The article calls lapot a killing, a legend, a custom, and a tradition. It can't be all of those at the same time. Reading between the lines, as an American with a drop or two of Slovenian blood in his veins, I'm seeing feeble attempts on the part of modern ethnologists to whitewash what was a very real and gruesome practice in the history of the region. If it is only legend, make that clear. If it actually happened routinely, make that clear. --Milkbreath (talk) 16:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have access to, or the ability to read, most of the sources. However, it appears to be a legend, with people occasionally doing similar things in isolated instances. Irbisgreif (talk) 16:19, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sources all report instances of lapot in terms such as "I have been told that..." or "The people say that they used to kill....", etc. There are no eye witness accounts in the sources. Modern anthropolgists have pointed this out and suggest that in fact the legend or myth or whatever you wish to call it was in fact used in the story of the grandson hiding his grandfather from lapot, and the grandfather in fact saving the community by his wisdom, so this story in fact became the basis for a societal structure in which the wisdom of the old was valued.

I first heard of lapot in Serbia in the early 1970s and the storytellers all swore blind that lapot had been practiced in the time of Turks, which would be perhaps the nineteenth century. I have heard that Native American clans abandoned their old to die in the winter when resources were scare, but this may have been propaganda from the European settlers - who knows? Jezhotwells (talk) 16:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you would like, I'll try a rewrite from that tack, that the origins are lost in the mists of time. I'd want to wait for the article to settle down first, for all the facts to come in. I do only English and some French, so I wouldn't be of any use in the research, I'm afraid, but I do write pretty good if I do say so myself. --Milkbreath (talk) 17:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As best I can tell, that's the case, so it's a good way to write the article. Translations sure would be welcome. Irbisgreif (talk) 18:34, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only sources entirely in Serbo-Croat are #6 [2] and #10 [3] and Google translate makes a reasonable stab at these. #3 is mostly French, #11 is Italian, the rest are in English. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I could have sworn I wrote this once already, but: I'm on it. I'm currently waiting for Heavenly Serbia from the library, because the on-line thing has no notes. --Milkbreath (talk) 02:51, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Senicide and the Romans?

Generally speaking, the Romans respected old age, and I can't immediately think of anything comparable to the example given. The "tale" sounds fishy, though maybe it refers to a singular instance involving the conservation of resources during a siege. Cynwolfe (talk) 02:18, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or possibly a specific order given at one point after an area was brought under control? The Romans loved killing, so it seems believable to me. Irbisgreif (talk) 03:11, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So the Romans loved killing but the Serbs don't so the custom must be Roman?? What logic is that Irbisgreif???? The custom did happen, I posted links. The fact that they no longer do it doesn't mean it's a myth or legend.

Keep it Fake (talk) 16:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't comment on the Serbs at all. Irbisgreif (talk) 18:02, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

this is a lie

typical lie by anti Serb people, probably Albanian Muslims, so until we have a confident source it's best that this article is deleted —Preceding unsigned comment added by Verbatimdat (talk • contribs) 18:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian people respect their parents more than anything else, a father was always making son proud and son was making father proud. They were ideals to each other. It's also a nonsense that a Christian nation like Serbia would do that. This custom suits most to Albanian Muslims. Spare us from articles like this in the future albanian haters! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Verbatimdat (talk • contribs) 18:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article is adequately sourced, including many Serb sources. It clearly states that this is a "legendary" custom. Blanking the page is not going to make this go away, it will likely result in your being blocked. Jezhotwells (talk) 20:33, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And you can go to hell Jizza (Verbatimdat (talk) 17:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)) blocking me is just your typical western "democracy" of free speech[reply]

THanks for your comments - as predicted you have been blocked. Jezhotwells (talk) 01:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Recent deletions of sourced material

I have reverted recent deletions by Lothar Klaic. Please discuss on the talk page before making deletions based on yoru own subjective opinions. This is a collaborative project and you need to learn how to interact with other editors. Jezhotwells (talk) 09:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The piece bout " father-son clashes" I deleted has no relation to lapot. Please demonstrate how the cited source makes the relation to the legendary custom. If there is none, then this part does not belong to wikpedia.

Also before instructing others how to behave please learn the rules yourself. I explained my reason in edit summary. Please prove that my opinion is wrong before reverting it. This is the correct way of interacting. You don't own the page and have no right to revert my edits. All wikipedia edits are based on editor's subjective opinions about article content, based of reliable sources. We don't copy texts from books in wikipedia, we select them and rephrase them based on our knowledge. Otherwise it would be plagiarism, not encyclopedia. Therefore if you disdagree with my explained judgement of article content, a polite way is to explain your reasons against my explanation. Simply reverting is not a social way of interacting with other editors, Lothar Klaic (talk) 16:12, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Also, I noticed that your edit summary refers to me as "oprinaited editor". From the talk page I conclude that you meant "opinionated editor". Please know that this is a personal attack. I don't remember editing much or edit conflicting to be called "opinionated editor" by a person I see for the first time. Please explain why you concluded that I am an "opinionated editor". Please keep in mind two things: in a civilized community people are entitled to their opinions, and in English language the term you used means a person who is stubborn in opinions, i.e., it is an insult. Lothar Klaic (talk) 16:20, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I unreservedly apologise and have reverted myself. I can only say that I have kept this article on my watchlist since I rescued it from deletion. I over-reacted, assuming, without due cause, that this was yet another instance of the vandalism to which this article has been subjected. I am sorry. Jezhotwells (talk) 17:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cut and paste page move

I noticed that the article has a suspiciouslty short edit history. By looking at various redirects I noticed that this happened because of cut-and-paste move of content from what is now "Lapot (senicide)" to "Lapot" by a series of actions of Vinie007 (talk · contribs).

If there are admins among the people watching this page, please repair the article history. Lothar Klaic (talk) 16:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked for action at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Lapot cut and paste move. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:09, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And it has been done. Jezhotwells (talk) 19:33, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Father-son clashes

Regardless relevance to this article, the issue of "father-son clashes" during military conflicts, especially during civil wars is common in many histories. Therefore it is an interesting subject in itself. I briefly looked in wikipedia and didn't find any article which discusses this. I looked pages patricide, filicide, fratricide; they have none; besides, these would be too one-sided article title for the subject. I also was Parent–offspring conflict, but this is about en evolutionary concept. Can you suggest a good title for this topic and start an article, since you have some references? Lothar Klaic (talk) 16:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]