Talk:Lewis Lee Hawkins

MEK attribution

I've added the claim that the MEK was behind the assassination to the lead. There seem to be two views on who is to be blamed for the assassination of Hawkins, one view says Peykar and the other says MEK. WP:NPOV - a core policy - requires that we present "all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". Further WP:WEIGHT requires that "all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." It also adds "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement..."

Placing the Peykar claim in the lead, but not the MEK claim in the lead thus violates WP:WEIGHT. There are currently more reliable sources for the MEK claim than for the Peykar claim (see this edit). The sources for the MEK claim include:

• the most detailed and scholarly publication on the early history of the MEK - Radical Islam: The Iranian Mojahedin, written by scholar Ervand Abrahamian and published by Yale University Press
• the 2010 and 2011 US State Department reports (although a 2006 one seemed to blame Peykar)
• Associated Press
• a very detailed and comprehensive report on the MEK by the RAND corporation

Given the prominence of this viewpoint among RS, it definitely belongs in the lead. Anyone removing this viewpoint from the lead should address my WP:NPOV concerns above.VR _talk 11:02, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Peykar

TheDreamBoat in this edit you said there "There is controversy that this was a MEK assassination since a Peykar member admitted to the assassination". Can you provide any sources that say this was not an MEK assassination? The person who was convicted of the assassination, Afrakhteh, seemed to have later founded Peykar but that doesn't mean he wasn't an MEK member at the time of the assassination. Anyway, instead of us wikipedians figuring out who to blame for the assassination, lets let WP:RS do that. Thanks, VR _talk 15:26, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Mojahedin M.L. (Marxist–Leninist)

Sources say the Mojahedin M.L. (Marxist–Leninist) is a different group from the Muslim MEK. See the talk page discussion @PMOI page (including the citations). Fad Ariff (talk) 12:21, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

This has already been explained. Peykar only became a separate group from October 1975 . Iskandar323 (talk) 13:45, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Read it again. Vahid Afrakhteh, a member of the Mojahedin M.L. (Marxist–Leninist) and later a founding member of Peykar, was captured and confessed to the assassination. There is nothing disputed about that. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:11, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, later - this is not pertinent to the article; it is a transparent framing device to make him seem 'less' linked to the MEK. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:23, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

"The most notable actions of the Marxist Mojahedin were assassinations of Savak general, of two American military advisers, and a failed attempt against an American diplomat, all in 1975" He was linked to the Marxist Mojahedin, not the Muslim Mojahedin (what you are attempting to add to the article). Fad Ariff (talk) 12:03, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Great, happy days. Still, unfortunately, before the group split from the MEK, and nothing in that source says otherwise. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:12, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Great, I'm not saying otherwise either. The Marxist Mojahedin did split from the MEK, and a member of the Marxist Mohajedin was blamed for this. There is nothing disputed about that. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:02, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

It split in October 1975, as all the reliable sources say. This is either POV-pushing or incompetence at this point. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:11, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Read it again: "By 1973, the members of the Marxist–Leninist MEK launched an "internal ideological struggle" "This new group adopted a Marxist, more secular and extremist identity" "This led to two rival Mojahedin, each with its own publication, its own organization, and its own activities" "The new group was known initially as the Mojahedin M.L. (Marxist–Leninist). A few months before the Iranian Revolution, the majority of the Marxist Mojahedin renamed themselves Peykar". The information in People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran makes it clear that the Mojahedin M.L. (Marxist–Leninist), as it became known in 1973, is not the same group as the Muslim MEK. And then: "The most notable actions of the Marxist Mojahedin were assassinations of Savak general, of two American military advisers, and a failed attempt against an American diplomat, all in 1975" Your continued incivility in these discussions cannot outdo the WP:SOURCES. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:04, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

You are the one not reading the words here. An "internal struggle" means one within the organization. This isn't ambiguous. This is the most basic of the basic, ABC, 123, stuff. And none of these quotes disagree with this in the slightest. That this "led to two rival Mojahedin" is absolutely right; it did, in October 1975, when the organizations split, as the sources say, and as I have been saying. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:23, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Would you be willing to participate if we take this to WP:3O? The discussion would also involve the same material in the MEK article. Fad Ariff (talk) 12:09, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

References