Talk:List of Imperial Diet participants (1792)
|WikiProject Germany||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
I really wanted to have this page, although it is far from being complete now. If you look on a map of the Holy Roman Empire, you see hundreds of single states, as in a totally confusing mosaic. So it would be nice to put things in order.
I didn't add a column for the status of a state (kingdom, duchy etc.), because this changed too often for most of the states. For some foundations or dissolutions I found more than one date; someone who knows a lot about medieval history should check, which is correct. I hope, that this will become a helpful page later, when more than just a few arbitrarily chosen states are included in the list. -- Cordyph 21:12 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)
Hmm...this is a good idea, but as it is now, rather confusing. I have a few ideas, but I thought I 'd run them by first before doing anything. One way to systematize this would be to list states with votes in the Imperial Diet. On the web, one can find lists of such states as they existed in 1582, in 1792, and in 1803 (as the Empire was about to be dissolved, following all the secularizations of the ecclesiastical states). One could do a list of that sort, but it wouldn't be a list of all states in the Holy Roman Empire at any time, which would, I think, be impossible. In any event, I think the list should be organized in terms of the various types of states - Ecclesiastical Princes, Secular Princes, Counts, and Free Cities. I'll pr(UTC)obably start to change this around if nobody protests within the next few days. john 19:48 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)
I am glad to hear that you are about to start this change, and I am far from protesting against it. Admittedly I am not an expert in the history of the Holy Roman Empire, so I did not achieve more than this confusing list. -- Cordyph 08:25 Apr 30, 2003 (UTC)
- Alright, I'm going to start changing. For now, at least, I'll leave what you already have at the bottom. john 06:37 May 1, 2003 (UTC)
Many of the titles are the loose Engish translation of "von", "of". There is only one instance of "zu", though several of "von", and none of "von und zu". Surely this article needs to clarify which "of"s are actually "zu"s, and why this matters? PML.
Go ahead, if you'd like. I'm not familiar enough with the noble particles to do it myself, but if you know that stuff and want to do it, go for it. john 05:42 2 Jun 2003 (UTC)
To my astonishment Denmark is included in the list as a partial state of the Holy Roman Empire. Could the anonymous user responsible for this addition please explain, if this is a joke or somehow based on truth? -- Cordyph 19:44 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- No reply, so I removed Denmark. -- Cordyph 08:21 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I just moved this article to the new title "Diet of the H.R.E.". The old title "List of states in the H.R.E." has become inappropriate, since this article is not a pure list anymore. -- Cordyph 19:50 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I don't think this was a particularly brillant move. There is Reichstag (institution), which describes in detail was the Reichstag was. Your new title suggests that this article does, which it does not: it's a list of states of a particular Reichstag. Besides, there are plenty of lists with explanations around wikipedia. djmutex 21:19 2 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Hmm... I don't think either title is ideal. To be honest a "List of states [sic] in the Holy Roman Empire" would be a nearly impossible project, and is not, particularly, what this page does. On the other hand, I agree with Djmutex that "Diet of the Holy Roman Empire" is also not appropriate. One ought to note, though, that the current list is, in fact, not a complete list of reichsunmittelbar territories in the Holy Roman Empire. Perhaps... the article on the Reichstag could incorporate the list of states with voting seats, and the order and all that, and a "List of States in the Holy Roman Empire" could try to actually provide a list of all the reichsunmittelbar territories, and who possessed them. That would be rather onerous, though... john 00:00 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
P.S. The sic was because none of the territories in the Holy Roman Empire were considered States (Staaten). They were called Länder (as are the present day states in the Federal Republic), which does not imply sovereignty. john 00:00 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think the title is inappropriate -- we do have some precedents here for what titles should be -- Id' suggest changing this to Roman diet ASAP. (use the "move this page" tool on the menubar. -豎眩sv
Roman Diet? Are you serious? That would be far worse than either of the other options. john 00:10 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Yes, that would be a horrible change. I would rather it be moved to the Unholy Non-Roman NotanEmpire. Pizza Puzzle
Oh, shut up Adam. John - anyone- explain yourselves. If you pronouce a condition as if it were fact, you should at least give a rudimentary argument. -豎眩sv
The Diet of the Holy Roman Empire met in various German cities, and the Holy Roman Empire ought not be confused with the Roman Empire. Further, this distinction has little to do with the argument Cordyph and Djmutex were having, which was more about whether this article was appropriately titled after the Diet (Reichstag) at all, rather than what an article about the Diet should be called. john 00:17 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I seem to have been laboring under some unknown error. Thank you.-豎眩sv
The present title is probably not ideal, but "List of states..." appears to be a worse title. This article does not correspond with our other "List of..." articles, which are mostly pure lists including links to other articles. That is, what this article originally was, but now it is not a pure list anymore. But if one of you can find a better title for this article, go ahead and move the page again. -- Cordyph 08:21 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I suggest "List of Reichstag participants (1792)". I am aware that the Wikipedia convention is to use English terms whenever possible and that Imperial Diet seems to be the common English term for Reichstag, but I vote for making an exception here, since Reichstag is also the name of the well-known building in Berlin, which is why I used Reichstag (institution) and Reichstag (building) as page titles, since there is a connection. For the record, I wrote most of these two pages plus the Holy Roman Empire article over the last months, hence my interest in consistency here. -- djmutex 09:35 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Another thing, for examples that lists do have explanations coming with them, refer to List of French monarchs and List of German Kings and Emperors. I find the explanations at the top of this article very helpful. djmutex 09:42 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I did not suggest to drop the explanations. They are indeed very helpful. Okay, then go ahead with List of Reichstag participants (1792) or Reichstag of the Holy Roman Empire (1792). I agree, that most important is the addition of the year. What are we going to do with the last section of the article - that extremely incomplete list. Should this be taken out of the main article and moved to the old location (List of states...), or should we delete and forget it? -- Cordyph 09:54 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Done. About the incomplete list at the bottom, I suggest that it be moved to a separate article so that whoever started it can finish it separately from this article. djmutex 09:59 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Okay, I will move this list to List of states in the Holy Roman Empire. That will also solve the problem with double redirects caused by the double page move. -- Cordyph 10:05 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I am currently fixing the links. Have to go now, will be back in a few hours to finish the job. djmutex 10:09 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Hmm... List of Reichstag voices would probably be more accurate than "participants". But whatever. As far as the Reichstag (institution) article, I'm not sure on that. Seems to me that in English, at least Reichstag is usually used from the 1871-1945 assembly, but "Imperial Diet" is more commonly used for the Diet of the Holy Roman Empire. Descriptions of the two could be split up. As far as "List of states in the Holy Roman Empire", I'd like to work on that to make it a bit more useful. I'd say 1) List the Stem Duchies, and other early and high Medieval divisions of Germany; 2) then list the late medieval/early modern territorial divisions, dividing it up into Ecclesiastical Princes/Secular Princes and Counts/Imperial Cities/Reichsrittern. john 10:11 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- I am aware of the English usage, but it's still the same word in German, and the 1871 Reichstag was precisely named as such in rememberance of the old thing. So in my view, it would add to the confusion if there was a separate Imperial Diet article. Which is why I wrote,
- Confusingly, today's parliament is called Bundestag since the Reichstag as a parliament ceased to exist during Nazi Germany (1933--1945). In today's usage, the German term Reichstag thus refers primarly to the building; for details on the history of the Reichstag as an institution, which leads back to the Holy Roman Empire, refer to Reichstag (institution).
Thank you for this most interesting set of pages, which I have been discussing with a friend at the Duke's Head pub, Richmond Hill, London: just to let you know you are doing a good job,. CJS.
I liked to read this ineresting article about the last period of the Holy Roman Empire, but i found some mistakes. For example, i didnt' find the vote of the Free Imperial City of Regensburg (it had a vote in the circle of Bavaria, as the seat of the Reichstag). Moreover, this article doesn't explain the situation of the Duchy of Burgundy (in the 18th ita was under the Austrian sovereignty from 1714). I read, finally, confusion about some personal votes of the Counts' Counsil (as counts von Traun, i'm sure i've never find any seat and vote in the Diet for this austrian noble family).
I think that Kingdom of Hungary shouldn't be mentioned in this article because it was never a part of Holy Roman Empire.