Talk:List of Romanian Jews
Jewish ?/or In the list?
So if it's accepted that they're Romanian and Jewish, why shouldn't they be on a list of Romanian Jews? Why confine the information to noting on another list of Romanians that they're Jewish?--Brownlee 20:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, but German-Americans are German too and we're not merging them with List of Germans. Every American is descended from some Europeans. First generation Americans belong on List of Americans and the specified nationality, otherwise we would just do away with all those lists. If you feel its not clear enough they're Jewish then we can always add a little section at the bottom like in List of Polish Americans. 184.108.40.206 20:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
- So why not have a separate article? Wikipedia is not paper; there's no reason not to have a separate article.--Newport 12:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
- As part of wikipedian standards we put people of first-generation American birth on a list of X-Americans. If you feel its somehow not clear that they are Jewish (despite them having sources saying they're jewish and being on list of jewish americans), you can make a section similar to the one on List of Polish Americans whereas the Jews have their own section. Stop re-adding them to this list, it is considered vandalism if you do not give a valid reason. If you feel it is unfair that first-generation americans are not categorized purely by their ethnicity, you can argue for the merging of all X-American lists with their subsequent European counterparts. Thank you. 220.127.116.11 15:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
What Wikipedian standards? Please provide a link to the relevant Wikipedia policy. This is an ethnic as well as geographical list, and these people are ethnic Romanian Jews.
- Most are only part ethnic X, and some don't even have the Jewish ancestry from the X side. Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups/Rules for lists of X-Americans 18.104.22.168 16:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This is not a policy; it's a discussion. Further, the position you advance is not mentioned.--22.214.171.124 16:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
- The whole basis for having X-American lists is so that people AREN'T categorized by their parent's or grandparent's birthplace. This page asserts under what rules the X-American pages are formatted. 126.96.36.199 16:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
It asserts nothing; it is a discussion, not a policy. Please link to a page that states the policy.--188.8.131.52 16:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
- Not all wikipedian standards are enumerated. Link me to a policy that says we can add people to a list based solely on their great grandparent's ancestry. They are standards that arise from discussion. If you wish, we will bring several editors to help clear up this mess. 184.108.40.206 16:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
By all means delete everyone on the list with only a Jewish great-grandparent, and bring as many editors as you like.--220.127.116.11 17:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
- Equivalently, where does it state we CAN categorize a person based only on their parents place of origin? Most standards aren't enumerated, they simply evolve out of discussion. 18.104.22.168 17:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
This is in part an ethnic list. Anyone with Romanian Jewish parents is obviously ethnically a Romanian Jew.--22.214.171.124 17:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm entitled to decide which articles I edit. If you wish to edit the List of Germans, you are free to do so; I doubt that I will.--126.96.36.199 17:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I have no clue what you just said, but can we move the discussion to TALK:List of South-East European Jews so we don't have to keep moving from one talk page to another? 188.8.131.52 17:16, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
The Jennifer Aniston Standard
- Lauren Bacall, actress (Romanian mother)
- Just like Aniston, Bacall is American-born with one parent of a specific nationality. Nonetheless, Bacall, like Aniston, is predominantly known as American and not Romanian/Greek. Hence, she does not qualify on this list but should go on List of Romanian Americans.
- Michael Howard, U.K. politician (Romanian father)
- Howard was born in the UK to a Romanian father. Similarly, Aniston was a born in the US to a Greek father. Dominant theory sees Howard as British. Parallels speak for themselves. Howard would work well for category of UK romanians.
- P.F. Sloan, US rock singer/songwriter (Romanian mother)
- There aren't many sources that state this person even had a Romanian mother.
- Per his article, the dominant view is that Stan Lee is an American-born Jew of Romanian parentage. Aniston is American-born and of Greek parentage via her father. Stan Lee has two foreign-born parents. Furthermore, we would need a source that calls Stan Lee himself a Romanian in order to qualify for this list.
- Delmore Schwartz, poet (Romanian parents)
- Same case as above.
Leaving for few days for objections or comments. 184.108.40.206 15:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I have been recently asked to reference the newer entries, and agreed to do so on the talk page (for two reasons: I dislike referencing lists - a stylistic mess, IMO; I think that the articles themselves should be referenced instead). First of all, two basic comments:
- I profoundly dislike the "Jew hunt" that has been a staple of Romanian nationalism, and will never be adding to this list with the goal of over-inflating to prove a point (any point). I realize that I may open a can of worms with some Romanian editors (given some recent comments that have been aimed at me on some other article's talk page), but, based on countless sources, I can attest to the utter ill-faith and the anti-Semitic undertones of allegations about the "Jewish character" of Communism in Romania (most of the issues raised in such a manner of bogus, some are horrible excuses for cruel deeds, and all of them are factually irrelevant when placed in their proper context).
- I am far from an expert on defining Jewishness, and am simply aware of the many ways in which Jewishness is defined, along the religion-based and the ethnicity-based divide. Hopefully, we can agree that the former definition requires self-reference as "Jewish", why the latter does not. We can also note that both criteria have been used in defining entries on other lists (and elsewhere), and that this list currently comprises some entries which only abide by one of the two rules. It can also help to note that editors who identify themselves as Jewish (presumably, using both definitions) have reviewed this page at different stages, and, while objecting to certain inclusions, have not AFAIK objected to the principle of including both instances. (As we all know, there is a risk in "over-specifying" the criteria needed, which may lead to a Nuremberg-like rule on wiki; personally, I would rather abide any established rule instead of producing it.)
Consider the above my disclaimer (and thank you for having the patience to read it).
To the matter at hand:
- I admit that Mr. Tismăneanu posed more of a problem than I thought he would. To furnish context to those unfamiliar: he is currently the topic of a scandal which should, perhaps, become our long-awaited version of the Dreyfus Affair (to give you the short version: a large number of Romanian intellectuals have decided to contest his ability to objectively analyze Romanian communism on the basis of him being the son of Jewish communists). In this context, it was very hard finding a neutral or sympathetic link that would specifically refer to his Jewishness; it was, however, easy and to bump into slander and vile attacks on him, as well as various allegations which mimic respectability. I did, however, find this Romanian-language article which indicates that both his parents were Jewish, while making an admirable point about how this adds nothing to the debate about how this adds nothing to the current debate. This serious source also indicates his father was Jewish. I believe I could find even clearer references on his parents (not online ones). I may not, however, be able to produce ones that indicate Tismăneanu considers himself Jewish (although I think remember him saying it) - nevertheless, if we are to take the "Jews as an ethnicity" view (the sole basis for including several others on this list), then it should not matter.
- Leonte Răutu, just as Iosif Chişinevschi, was Jewish - says so Mr. Tismăneanu . Now, you will note that the reference clearly indicates that, although Jewish in origin, these people would not have referred to themselves as such. However: aside from the "Jews as ethnics" arguments, this relation is enclosed within the view that Communists rejected religious identities, as well as some-to-all national ones. I would not recommend this measure under any circumstances, but removing entries on the basis of that [otherwise solid and academic] argument should also urge us to exclude Ana Pauker, Marcel Pauker, etc etc. Elsewhere in the book (not available in the preview), Tismăneanu makes a clear reference to Răutu as Jewish (I don't own the book, but it should be in the brief bios he editied in at the end - present in the Romanian edition, couldn't tell you id they are part of the original.)
- Valter Roman - interestingly, I had included him based on his son's Petre's presence on the list (hope you will agree with me that one presence is dependent on the other). Given the number of adversaries Petre Roman has, and given the idiotic assumption some of my compatriots make about how calling someone Jewish is equivalent to singling out an enemy of all things Romanian (you should see how ro:wiki - it's overflowing in such mannerisms), this has been the object of intrigue. A source which is critical of Valter, but professional and well-meaning, points out that Petre himself authored an autobiography in which he attested that his origin was Jewish (the comment, made by a historian, refreshingly list this as "a banality"). I was able to dig up Valter's own testimony, which is apparently cryptic, but which deserves a bit of attention: "when I was growing up, [ethnic] Germans would say that I was Hungarian, [ethnic] Hungarians that I was Romanian, [ethnic] Romanians that I was Jewish". Anyone familiar with the situation in Transylvania will see that Roman is referring to the identities he was thought to have placed over his original Jewish one. In the same source, Roman is apparently indifferent about the Jewish identity (praising the fact that communism freed him from such ethnic stencils), but we could observe the same guidelines as the ones presented above.
- Mr. Andrei Oişteanu is referred to as a member of the Jewish Community Council here. Note that the link also lists other names, some of whom are notable people we should add articles on. I will do that as part of the future edit. (I have bolded this comment so it may be easily seen as the reason behind my future edits.)
- The Jewish community also presents Alexandru Toma as a Jew. (Possible inclusions from that list as well). I'm pretty sure Tismăneanu backs this (not in the limited preview, but I think I have read it in the Romanian edition). In any case, what works for Alexandru works for Sorin, who was his son (couldn't tell you if his mother was, but I ask you not to add for a fact that she wasn't - it would be more problematic to say "Jewish father", a definite statement, than to say nothing).
- not my edit, but might as well: Iosif Sava "never hid the fact that he was a Jew" (according to the rabbi speaking at his commemoration).
- Radu Cosaşu is identified by Norman Manea as "a Jewish writer of talent". The Jewish Community lists one of his works as including themes related to "his Jewishness". Finally, Cotidianul celbrates him as "a Jewsih writer among Romanians, a Romanian writer among Jews".
I have done the best I could on such short notice. Thank you for your patience and attention. Dahn 04:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- Ghizela Vass - according to Cioroianu, Pe umerii lui Marx, p.52, she was a Jewish survivor of the camps in Transnistria. Dahn 20:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- Simion Bughici - Dennis Deletant, Ceausescu and the Securitate: Coercion and Dissent in Romania, 1965-1989 (1995), p.47 Dahn 00:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
- Felix Albrecht, mathematician
- Josef Ausländer, physicist
- Marthe Bacal, physicist
- Alexander Bikel, jurist
- Iosef Eugen Campus, literary critic
- Ştefan Cazimir, literary critic
- Erwin M. Friedländer, physicist
- Alexandru Graur, linguist
- Silviu Klarsfeld, physicist
- Andrei Oişteanu, historian and anthropologist
- Zigu Ornea, literary critic
- Simion Sanielevici, mathematician
- Iosif Sava, musicologist and television host
- Alice Săvulescu, botanist
- Richard Weiner, physicist
- Sorin Solomon, physicist
- Barbu Iscovescu, painter
- Lola Schmierer-Roth, painter
- Arthur Segal, painter
- Max Auschnitt, financier
- Mauriciu Blank, financier
- Aristide Blank, financier and activist
- Jacques Elias, banker, landowner, manufacturer
- Hillel Manoah, banker
- Iosif Samitca, publisher
- Elina Löwensohn, actress
- Moshe Bazian, cantor
- Miriam Fried, violinist
- Mandru Katz, pianist
- Radu F. Alexandru, politician
- Simion Bughici, communist politician
- David Fabian, communist activist
- Remus Koffler, communist activist
- Karpel Lippe, Zionist activist
- Saul Ozias, communist politician
- Leonte Răutu, communist politician
- Mihail Roller, communist politician
- Solomon Tinkelman, communist activist
- Sorin Toma, communist activist
- Ghizela Vass, communist activist
- Belu Zilber, communist activist
- Leon Rotman, canoeist
- Radu Cosaşu, short story writer and journalist
- Emil Dorian, poet and writer
- Virgil Duda, writer,and journalist
- Bluma Finkelstein, poet and essayist
- Benjamin Schwarzfeld, writer and educator
- Moses Schwarzfeld, writer and journalist
- Wilhelm Schwarzfeld, essayist and journalist
- Aurel Storin, essayist, journalist and poet
- Alexandru Toma, poet
- Yes, well, why? Dahn 00:32, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- After the change at List of Poles and List of Romanians, article creation is now speedied and the lists are verifiable through the article. We no longer need to put "unverified" notices. There wasn't much of an objection at List of Romanians. "Selected lists of people should be selected for importance/notability in that category and should have Wikipedia articles (or the reasonable expectation of an article in the future)." Been months and months, sometimes years, since many of these were added and no article. It's time to move them. LeszekB 00:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- In what way is the creation of articles speedied? Also, putting pressure on editors to create articles is absurd - what that guideline says is that the articles should be on notable people (and those people are notable). Furthermore, I have provided sources for many of them just above. Concerning the List of Romanians: I tend to ignore that article, and have expressed my belief that it and all other generic should be reshaped into collections of links to topical lists that share at least two criteria (say, "list of Romanian physicists", "list of Albanian writers" etc.); this list, unlike that one, shares two criteria ("Romanian" and "Jews"). I have also objected to sourcing lists (any lists), since that can double their length over issues that can be expanded on in the respective articles, and that are more often than not easily accessible otherwise or just plain common knowledge.
- Why should editors be expected to do the same work twice? Dahn 00:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Obviously you don't need to source those who are already sourced in their article, but red links are required to be. WP:LISTS talks about when it is appropriate to remove red links. I quoted it above. LeszekB 00:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if the red links become articles and the facts are sourced there, if references are provided here in the meantime: a.who will be expected to remove the references and copyedit the list? ; b.how is one going to view removing the references, and who is going to explain that it is not vandalism? Also, you will note that references have been added for articles that exist in mentions on various lists - which makes the "obviously" not so obvious.
- In short: don't the tags serve the very same purpose without the headache? As long as this article is not WP:FL, there is clearly no implication that this list is reliable (though it is), and mistakenly referring to someone as Jewish, outside of certain fringe contexts (ie: advocacy of Jewish Bolshevism), cannot be interpreted as calumny. Neither is being a Pole or a Romanian. Eventually, when the articles will be created, the tags can go (as should the references here), and, in matters unsolved, if any, the citneeded tags can serve the purpose. Dahn 01:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
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