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Archive 1Archive 2

Edinburgh

Should Edinburgh be on this list? In Scotland, it is pronounced "Edinburra" which is, near-enough, how it appears.

It's a question of how non-intuitive it is for "gh" to be pronounced with a schwa. I can't think of any other word where it is. And in other place names "-burgh" is pronounced "-burg", as in Pittsburgh. If Edinburgh were spelled "Edinborough" I'd stay the pronunciation is intuitive enough, but as it is I do think "Edinburra" is a non-intuitive pronunciation for the spelling "Edinburgh".
How about Helensburgh, Musselburgh, Great Ryburgh, Colinsburgh, Newburgh, Fraserburgh, Dickleburgh, Flookburgh, Roxburgh, Grundisburgh, Fleeggburgh, Blythburgh, Winchburgh, Sedburgh, Cunningsburgh, Bamburgh, Smallburgh, Salsburgh (which is interestingly cognate to Salzburg), Aldeburgh, Jedburgh, Leverburgh, and Sumburgh? All of those are pronounced with a schwa. Pittsburgh is the odd one out, as the modern spelling of all other historic -burghs in America has been changed to -burg (e.g. Williamsburg, NY). The other oddity is "burgh" as a separate word is usually pronounced "burr", as in Burgh Heath, Surrey. 82.36.26.229 04:38, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Looks like the above exchange points out a problem with calling any pronunciation non-intuitive. Perhaps this page is too (potentially) POV? - dcljr 21:58, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I don't think POV in its usual Wikipedian sense is going to be an issue here, but I agree that non-intuitive isn't the best name, as different people will have different intuitions. Maybe it should be called "List of names in English whose pronunciations are not easily deducible from their spellings"? A bit wordy, perhaps. But I think that is and should be the point of this page. Which is why Newark should not be on the list: both [nuɚk] and [nuɑrk] are easily deducible from the spelling. Likewise we shouldn't include Concord just because some towns so named are pronounced [kɑŋkɚd] and others are pronounced [kɑŋkɔrd]. I'm not thrilled about BERlin and New MADrid being on the list either. I won't delete them, but I wouldn't have added them myself. I considered and rejected adding Lima, Ohio on the grounds that it's pronounced [laɪmə] rather than [limə]. Even though people might incorrectly think that Berlin, New Madrid, and Lima are pronounced the same as the cities in Germany, Spain, and Peru, nevertheless the correct US pronunciations are in fact easily deducible from their spellings. --Angr 23:32, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think the scope of this page is too narrow -- and it was me who created it in the first place. I did so because I felt it would be good for Wikipedia to have somewhere to record all those daft "Cholmondeley"-type names, which crop up regularly in British (and no doubt most other countries') popular culture. It was always intended to be trivia -- worthwhile trivia, I hasten to add -- if that's not an oxymoron. Anyway, I agree with Angr; my original intention was to record names whose spelling bears little relation to their pronunciation, rather than merely names that are pronounced differently to another more famous version. I would therefore vote against Newark, etc.
The page should be renamed, I think. Angr, your suggestion is, as you say, wordy, but it does sum up the original intention better than the current name. I see no reason not to move it. I don't see any particular reason why it should be restricted to names either, after all "cough" doesn't have a particularly intuitive pronunciation to someone who wasn't brought up speaking English. --Lancevortex 09:42, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think the restriction to names is a good idea, for two reasons: (1) it will keep the page manageable: one we start adding "cough", "tough", "plough", and "dough", where will we stop? (2) the pronunciations of lexical words like cough etc. are found in virtually any English dictionary, while placenames and especially surnames can be much harder to find. So we put them here. --Angr 11:39, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Newark

Newark should be on this list... I'm just not sure which is the more common variant. NEW-ark (pronounced almost like one syllable: "nork") as in Newark, New Jersey, or new-ARK (pronounced almost like two separate words: new ark) as in Newark, Delaware. I don't know how it's pronounced in Ohio, California, Arkansas, New York, Illinois, Maryland, or Texas. – flamuraiTM 04:52, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)

I don't think either pronunciation is sufficiently non-intuitive to be on the list. --Angr 07:08, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would say the New Jersey city is pronounced NOO-erk. - dcljr 21:58, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ohio's Newark is officially pronounced the same as in Newark, New Jersey. In practice, however, the name is pronounced very much with one syllable. A running joke in metropolitan Columbus (itself pronounced locally as "Klumbis") is that the name of the city is actually "Nerkahia". I've seen t-shirts that have been printed with that name, though a cursory glance at Google did not reveal any information on the t-shirt line. -- SwissCelt 19:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Stroud

Stroud in Gloucestershire. I've met more than one person who insists it's pronounced "strood" (to rhyme with the first sylable of "strudle"), in a similar manner to Frome being "froom". Can anyone confirm this?82.10.108.49 22:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


English Names

The list should define itself more explicitly. What is an "English" placename? Is it only names of places in English-speaking countries, or does it include the common names in English of other places (e.g. Rome rather than Roma, Munich rather than München — not that either of those is non-intuitive). I ask because I was going to include Kiribati, pronounced "Kiribass". Joestynes 01:16, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It hasn't been defined yet, but de facto it does seem to be limited to placenames in English-speaking countries and personal names encountered in English-speaking countries. But I don't see why this should be so; I have no objection to the inclusion of Kiribati on the grounds that the pronunciation "kiribass" is not easily deducible from the spelling. --Angr 06:59, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Would street names be acceptable? I was thinking of Houston Street in NYC: it's How-ston, not Hue-ston. – flamuraiTM 07:11, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Again, just because Houston Street in NYC is pronounced differently from Houston, Texas doesn't mean that the pronunciation [haUst@n] is difficult to deduce from the spelling Houston. --Angr 11:39, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Okay, then you should remove Berlin, Madrid, etc. Be consistent. – flamuraiTM 20:02, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)
Okay, I did. And I made some other changes too. --Angr 22:20, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Gaelic names

Almost any Gaelic name isn't pronounced how it's spelled. I guess this applies more to people names like Siobhan than place names, since most of the place names have been anglicized. Should these be included? They're governed by a different set of rules, so I can see why you may not want to include them. Just curious.

Also, I think Islay (EYE-luh) fits on the list, and Honiton doesn't.

– flamuraiTM 03:20, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you about Islay and Honiton, and have added the former and removed the latter. As for Siobhan (and Sean), the pronunciation is easily deduced from the spelling if you know Gaelic. (Of course the same argument could be made for Kiribati: the pronunciation is intuitive if you happen to know Gilbertese!) But both Siobhan and Sean are frequently used by people who know no Gaelic, so for them the pronunciation really isn't easily deducible. What do you think, Lancevortex? Shall we include first names on the list? --Angr 09:06, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's what I figured. You'd be opening up a can of worms if you started to include those names since there are so many. There is one first name on the list already (Menzies), though you may consider removing that at renaming the article "List of English place names with ..." – flamuraiTM 09:25, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)
Well, Menzies is also a surname; in fact I believe the first name is just a transferred use of the surname. Sean and Siobhan, on the other hand, are primarily and originally first names. But they are used by non-Gaelic speakers (I happen to know both a Sean and a Siobhan who are both from Devonshire and neither they nor their respective parents speak a word of Gaelic), so I think they qualify for the list if we want to open the list up to first names. And I can't think of a good reason not to, but I want Lancevortex's opinion first. --Angr 10:55, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I can see arguments both for and against the inclusion of Gaelic first names, which you two have already outlined. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that we should include the ones that English speakers are likely to encounter on a regular basis, such as Sean, Siobhan, Padraig (if that is indeed non-intuitive). My knowledge of Gaelic names is close to non-existent, but I seems to me that the majority of them are anglicized to the point where the average English speaker is never likely to encounter the original version. However, that's from my English perspective; an Irish person no doubt sees it differently. And who decides what counts as "regular"? I'm afraid I don't have an answer to that.
By the way, is Sean Bean, the actor who played Boromir in Lord of the Rings, pronounced "Shorn Born" or "Seen Been"? --Lancevortex 11:36, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
According to the IMDB his birth name was Shaun, so I presume he changed the spelling but not the pronunciation. There's also Sean Astin, who played Sam Gamgee in LOTR; I've always heard his name pronounced "shawn" (sorry, I'm a rhotic speaker, so "shorn" is just wrong for me!). And Sean Lennon, whose only connection with Ireland is that his father was from Liverpool. (Both of the latter seem to have been named Sean after their famous fathers named John.) I think if a Gaelic name is well established outside of Ireland and Scotland, like Sean and Siobhan, it can be included. But not names like Aoife /i:f@/ and Ruadhán /ru:A:n/, which are probably found almost exclusively in Ireland or among children whose parents were from Ireland. I don't know who gets to define "well established", but I'm going to go add Sean and Siobhan, and if other people start adding other Gaelic first names, we can ask if they consider the name to be well established outside of Ireland/Scotland. --Angr 13:27, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Totally agree with that. By the way, it is of course /ʃɔ:n bi:n/ -- please excuse my feeble attempt at phonetics-based humour! --Lancevortex 18:33, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Phonetics-based humor can be very dangerous! I've decided to add a note to the top of the page explaining what we mean by "non-intuitive pronunciations". It's easier than changing the name of the article to some wordy montrosity like the one I suggested above. --Angr 20:54, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I hate to be pedantic, but I don't get the whole point of this section. How can names that are in a language other than English be anything but non-intuitive when they're partaking of a system not known to the English speaker? Cobh is clear to an Irish speaker, so's Sean, because they're Irish not English, and can't be understood according to English rules of pronunciation. By this argument the entirety of the French language should be listed as non-intuitive! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.177.215.121 (talk) 23:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Non-intuitive or Counter-intuitive ?

Given the vagaries of English spelling I think the qualification "non-intuitive" pronunciation is too broad. Many strings of letters have multiple plausible English pronunciations; in which case, the actual pronunciation is not intuitive. However neither is it counter-intuitive, if the actual pronunciation is among the plausible ones. E.g. in Kansas, which <s> is pronounced as /z/? In Liverpool, does "Liver" rhyme with "River" or "Diver"? Which syllable is stressed in Mississippi? None of these answers is intuitive, but none is counter-intuitive, i.e. surprising or remarkable. Of course, a more common term for "word with counterintuitive pronunciation" is "word with irregular spelling". Joestynes 04:18, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cirencester - intuitive?

Whether the usual modern pronunciation is intuitive depends on your POV. Since /stə/ not /ˌsɛstə/ is the usual pronunciation of "cester" in English place names, I'm inclined that to the initiated, an intuitive pronunciation would be /ˈsaɪrənstə/, or maybe /ˈsɪrənstə/ or /sɪˈrɛnstə/. OTOH, to the uninitiated, the way it tends to be pronounced nowadays is intuitive. -- Smjg 11:49, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Norwich

Being from the UK, I look at places like East Dulwich and Norwich and would pronounce them 'East Dull-itch' and 'Norritch'. There are probably too many of these places to list them all, but if they conform to a general rule, might it be worth mentioning them? --SimonFr 13:15, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we should add a "common forms" section - the endings "cester" and "ham" (and maybe others) would fall here too. Of course, it would accommodate examples and exceptions. -- Smjg 16:33, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Worcester

I would argue that Worcester is more accurately pronounced-out as "wuss-ter" than "wooster."

  • (The history reveals the above comment was made at 05:25, 1 Mar 2005 UTC by Dupes.)
This is why we should use only IPA rather than impressionistic spellings. "Wooster" was supposed to indicate [ˈwʊstɚ], but clearly it could be interpreted as rhyming with "rooster", i.e. *[ˈwuːstɚ] --Angr 07:34, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So how is Wooster, Ohio pronounced? Like Worcester, Massachusetts? Or like rooster? --Macrakis 01:12, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
*[ˈwuːstɚ], i.e. rhyming with rooster. -- SwissCelt 19:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Southwark

How is Southwark pronounced? --Vuo 16:55, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

["sVD@k]. I'll go add it. --Angr 17:31, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Merger?

What do people think about merging this with List of place names with unexpected pronunciation? I know the criteria for inclusion on the two lists is slightly different (Lima, Ohio and New Madrid, Missouri belong there but not here, for example), but there's enough potential overlap that having both lists seems a little silly to me. --Angr 11:53, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with that -- don't have a problem with keeping them separate either! --Lancevortex 14:07, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since no one objected over the last three months, I've gone ahead and merged them. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 13:19, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Alnwick

Can someone who knows how to transliterate it add Alnwick? It's pronounced "annick".

Birmingham

The pronunciation of Birmingham is not non-intuitive, and it is not "Brum" (although that is an often-used colloquial shortened form).

Brum derives from Brummagem GraemeLeggett 11:54, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Caius College

This needs explanation - Caius is a latinization of the surname of the 2nd founder of the College - John Keys. GraemeLeggett 11:55, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

r-dropping and not

Names with 'r' are transcribed as in r-dropping dialects. But many of these placenames have both forms. For example, Worcester, Massachusetts gets [ˈwʊstə], while local non-r-droppers pronounce it [ˈwʊstəR] (not sure of which r or r-colored vowel, but that's another story). I suggest we use parentheses in these cases, e.g. [ˈwʊstə(R)]. --Macrakis 01:11, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's a good idea. As for which R to use, for English [ɹ] is strictly correct, but [r] is often used in its place as being easier to type and to read. Remember to use the IPA template — {{IPA| before and }} after — so that everyone can read it regardless of what browser they use. --Angr/comhrá 05:58, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Massachusetts names to add (most also in UK)

Cambridge (came, not cam)), Salem (sale, not sal), Woburn (woo, not woe), Malden (like moll, not like mallet), Reading (red, not reed), Somerville (summer, not soe-mer), Tewksbury (like books, not like pukes), Salisbury (sollz, not salz). But typing the IPA will take a while.... --Macrakis 01:13, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure all of these are sufficiently non-intuitive. The names on this page mostly have silent letters that aren't silent in regular words (-rce- isn't usually silent in English, but it is even in rhotic pronunciations of Worcester) or letters that reflect a pronunciation they don't normally reflect (-tch- doesn't usually spell /k/ in English, but it does in Natchitoches). The only names on your list that really fit that description IMO are Tewksbury (because -ew- doesn't usually spell /ʊ/ and Salisbury (because -i- isn't usually silent between two consonants). --Angr/comhrá 05:58, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
You may well be right, but off the top of my head, I can't think of other words parallel to Cambridge (cf. camber, camshaft, river Cam), Salem (cf. salad, salary, salon), and Woburn. You have a point about Malden, because there is alden/bald/scald; Somerville cf. Somerset, somersault; Reading cf. heading but not reading). Nonetheless, in all of these cases, certainly, non-locals hesitate or mispronounce them. --Macrakis 14:54, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Suggested additions

Sorry, I can't do IPA, unless it comes in pints. I suggest

  • Boise, Idaho (pronounced something along the lines of "boysie")
  • Isleworth, Middlesex, UK (pronounced approximately 'eye-zul-worth')
  • Terpsichore - a Muse 'terpsickorie'
  • Cholmondley (British name), pronounced something like 'chumley'
  • St John (British name), pronounced something like 'sinjun'
  • Rievaulx Abbey, North Yorkshire, UK (no idea how it is pronounced)
  • Berwick, Northumbria: 'berrick'
  • Chiswick, London: 'chisick'
  • Hermione - popular from Harry Potter
  • Blenheim Palace, Oxfordshire, UK, pronounced along the lines of 'blenim'
  • Theydon Bois (Station on London Underground), pronounced 'thaydon boys'
  • Plaistow (Station on London Underground) - no idea what the usual pronunciation is.
  • Leicester, pronounced 'lester', and NOT 'lie-sester'
  • Vale of Belvoir: 'Vale of Beevor'
  • Lieutenant, pronounced 'lootenant' or 'leftenant' depending on which side of the pond you hail from.
  • Gillingham, which is pronounced 'jilling'm' in Kent and 'gilling'm' in Dorset.
  • ...and possibly Psmith ('smith'), the P.G. Wodehouse character (and perhaps Wodehouse ('woodhouse') himself

and finally, the classic:

  • "I beg your pardon, could you repeat what you just said." - pronounced 'wha?' or 'eh?'

WLD 23:07, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Cholmondley is already on the list. Some of the others aren't non-intuitive enough for the list, which is really for names with unexpectedly silent letters or letter sequences with unexpected pronunciations; it's not a list of every name whose pronunciation is sometimes difficult for some people to guess. But some on your list are definitely worthy of inclusion; I'll see if I can find them in pronunciation dictionaries and then add them. --Angr/comhrá 02:12, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
I noticed Cholmondley after I committed the edit - sorry about that. Anyway, they are just suggestions, so if any make it into the article, that's a good result - and thank-you for tidying up the comment - my formatting head was in la-la land at the time. WLD 03:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)


Trottiscliffe

Trottiscliffe (Trosley) should be on the list. 62.194.114.150 15:06, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

discussion of what belongs and what doesn't

I notice that Berlin with stress on first syllable is still there, whereas someone suggested taking it out and doesn't include Lima (as in lima bean not Lima, Peru). I think as a general rule we *should* keep such names in; possibly create a separate section for such cases, giving both the pronunciation of the well-known city and the less well-known one. whether the less well-known, typically american one follows predictable rules is immaterial: if I saw Cairo, Illinois I'd sure assume pronunciation as in Cairo, Egypt rather than "kay-roe".

In general, 'unexpectedness' rather than "intuitiveness" should be the rule. For example, Berlin with stress on the first syllable is "intuitive" according to normal English rules, but unexpected since the "unintuitive" pronounciation of Berlin, Germany is so well known. Hence, BER-lin qualifies. On the other hand, Cambridge as "came-bridge" *probably* does not qualify since this is a well-known pronunciation/household name. "Reading" rhyming with "heading" probably does qualify since no towns with this name are familiar in most parts of the U.S. and the expected pronunciation, based on the noun "reading", is wrong. 'Houston Street' in NYC should qualify since the expected pronunciation based on the well-known city Houston, TX is wrong. Salem should not qualify since [a] many if not most Americans are familiar with this city due to the "Salem witch trials", and [b] even for those who are not, there is no "expected but incorrect" pronunciation and the actual pronunciation fits within the range of normal English pronunciation.

So I'd suggest we codify as follows:

Names belong here if

[a] The expected pronunciation, due to a more well-known name or word with the same spelling, is wrong; or [b] The actual pronunciation would not be a reasonable guess by a speaker familiar with general English spelling patterns but unfamiliar with the name at hand or with similar names (e.g. names in "burgh" or "cester").

Note that there can be more than one "reasonable guess" given a particular spelling. In the case of "Salem", pronunciation both as in "salad" and as in "sale" are reasonable, so with either pronunciation, this should not be included. Pronunciation as "sa-LEMM", with stress on the second syllable, is also reasonable, and such a pronunciation would not be included, either. However, "sillem", "sullem", etc. are not reasonable guesses, and such a pronunciation *would* be included. Likewise, since Salem as pronounced in Massachusetts (i.e. as in "sale") is a well-known name, any other town also spelled Salem but with some other pronunciation *should* be listed (possibly in a separate section, if people are bothered about including these with the Cholmondeleys of the world.)

"Cambridge" is a marginal case -- it's true that long a is unexpected after two or more consonants, but note the case of "chamber", and of other words like "comb" and "climb" where "mb" causes lengthening. In this case, since "Cambridge" is a fairly well-known pronunciation to people both in the U.S. and the U.K., I would suggest not putting it in, but I could easily see going the other way.

In the case of Edinburgh, I feel strongly that this *does* belong. There is no precedent anywhere in English spelling for pronouncing "gh" next to a consonant as schwa. I, as an American, have heard of not one of the various English towns listed above with -burgh in them, and I suspect that at least 99% of Americans say "Edinburg" [and this has nothing to do with "Pittsburgh", as most Americans probably would spell it "Pittsburg" if asked]. (The other 1% are those who have had people correct them a number of times, and even those will probably say "Edin-burrow" not "Edin-burra".)

One unresolved question has to do with foreign names. The Southwest U.S., in particular, is filled with towns with Spanish names, which usually have a pronunciation somewhat similar to the original Spanish (e.g. Navajo = "NAVV-a-hoe"). Most Westerners, and many other Americans, are familiar enough with these names that they will often recognize that such a name is Spanish and try to pronounce it in a somewhat Spanish fashion -- at the very least, 'a' as in "cat" or "ah", not "bake"; 'e' as in "beta", not "beet"; 'i' as in "machine", not "mine"; 'o' as in "boat" not "cot"; 'u' as in "boot" not "but". Such a pronunciation is clear not "reasonable for an English word", but may well be expected, whereas the Anglicized pronunciation is quite unexpected. For example, when traveling to L.A. I heard someone say that the place we were going was in "Las Filas". Imagine my surprise when I saw the actual spelling "Los Feliz"! "Los Feliz" is a pretty obvious Spanish word, and an "expected" Spanish-style pronunciation of "Los Feliz" rhymes with "close police".

So do we list Spanish names in the U.S. like "Los Feliz" that have strongly Anglicized pronunciations on the grounds of unexpectedness, or list names like "Navajo" that have Spanish-style pronunciations that are "expected" but "unreasonable w.r.t. normal English pronunciation", or both, or neither? And what about a name like Vallejo, CA pronounced "vuh-LAY-hoe"? This is a bastardized half-English, half-Spanish pronunciation, but nonetheless I guessed this correctly the first time I saw it, so the pronunciation is evidently at least somewhat intuitive.

My vague instinct is to list all three just-mentioned names, since in these cases there are plenty of people who will find them nonintuitive no matter what the pronunciation. I think the main exceptions for Spanish names are [1] ones like "Las Vegas" or "Chula Vista" where the actual pronunciation is both [a] more or less faithful to the Spanish pronunciation, and [b] reasonable within the normal rules of English pronunciation; [2] ones like "Los Angeles" that are generally familiar. (Probably also [3] names that generally follow Spanish pronunciation but convert stressed open 'a' to long English "hay", cf. Grenada; possibly also names that show a similar change involving stressed open 'e', cf. Teresa; maybe, but this time with fair reservations, for stressed open 'i'.)

Maybe we should separate by country, since different sorts of non-intuitive names occur in different places (Cholmondeley et al. in Britain; weird Irish names in Ireland; Spanish names in the U.S.; the BER-lins and LIE-mas and CAY-ros are also mostly an American phenomenon.)

Benwing 1 July 2005 13:47 (UTC)

I was very surprised not to see St. John and Worcestershire on the list. But I really think this will rapidly get too long. Just ask a Michigan resident how to pronounce Saline, Mikado, Ossineke, Ocqueoc or Larned among many others. Rmhermen 18:22, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

Merge with List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation?

Are we aware that there are two of this page? The other being, of courese, List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation. Actually that one is much more precise and a bit more user friendly, though it is shorter; one might consider deleting one or the other... Horatio86 22:09, 18 August 2005

I vote to merge the pages, keeping the text of this page in its entirety as it's much more comprehensive and "professional", but renaming it to the clearer "List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation". By the way, I gave Horatio86's comment a title and moved it to the bottom of the page, as it took me a while to find it initially. --Lancevortex 08:57, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
I vote to merge too. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 22:24, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Err...not all the names on the page are place names. That rules out using the above suggested title. How about "List of names with unpredictable pronunciation" ? WLD 23:21, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the content on that page should be merged here, and the name of this page should stay as it is. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 23:48, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree. But I don't think everything on that page and not on this one should be moved across - for example neither Ely nor Dereham (given the normal treatment of -ham in placenames in England) seems particularly non-intuitive to me.--JHJ 12:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I've added a few of the names on the other page to this one. I also made a few other changes, including more use of /(r)/ to allow both rhotic and non-rhotic pronunciations.--JHJ 09:09, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Merger from List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation

In an attempt to try and finally dispose of this merger. Copied below are the entries from List of place names with unpredictable pronunciation that are not in this article. I don't know enough about the subject to judge whether they should be included - could people that do know, move them from there to the article. The other page has now been redrect here.


I have two suggestions for this article but am not sure how to enter them:

Santa Fe, Tennessee, USA is pronounced santa-fee.

Favre, Brett's name is pronounced by reversing the v and r so that the sound is -arv instead of -ahvray or -ahver.


Thanks, Daniel

Removals

I deemed a few of the pronunciations not really non-intuitiv:

The argument that the more famous Cairo, or San Jose, or whatever, make the others' spelling unpredictable is a little like saying that "everyone surely is familiar with at least one of the -cesters, therefore they are regularily /-st@(r)/". For consistency, maybe the originals of cases like this ought to be added to the list... --Tropylium 19:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone already reverted your deletions, but I agree with you that the list should be weeded regularly, not to crowd gems like Ayscough and Leveson-Gower. Benwing's suggestion (see above) that most names guessed at a second attempt shouldn't be on the list is reasonable, though the second guess often is "wait, those crazy Brits/Americans don't pronounce it like X, do they?". One measure of unexpectedness is the number of times a name appears on the web followed by "pronounced X, though there should be a law against that" or similar statements.
The following are debatable:
  • Billerica ("Bill Ricker" and "doesn't rhyme with America") fits that last criterium. I've removed the schwa.
  • The American towns of Athens, Cairo, Milan and Vienna must all have inherited the English names for cities with well-known pronunciations. Though they are "second guess" towns, they have a curiosity factor, i.e. why did they get distorted? For Lima, Ohio there actually is an explanation in wikipedia. The different emphasis in Madrid, New Mexico seems more subtle. Castile, New York 'kɑstaɪl is not yet on the list, but seems equally deserving as Lima & Madrid
  • Ely is usually accompanied with its pronunciation. I suppose it begs for [i:laɪ]. This may be a deletable second-guess case.
  • San Jose [sæn ˈʤoʊz] may be intuitive if you're newborn or haven't heard the song Do You Know The Way To San Jose, but seems too funny too leave out. I find San Rafael [sæn ɹəˈfɛl] less convincing.
I've re-removed these four:
  • Corfu with the palatization may be barbarian but not unexpected
  • Minot, named after one Henry Davis Minot, seems pronounced as expected (one pronunciation of minute may throw some people off)
  • Puget Sound is probably first guessed with a hard g but can't really be called irregular. It had been suggested repeatedly here, so I'd added it as a "border case" though didn't think it passed the test myself.
  • Unadilla seems pronounced exactly as expected. Perhaps it was added because it looks Spanish.
My own suggestions for deletion:
  • Assman(n) pronounced [ɑsmɑn] is a German surname
  • The difference between the American and British Lancasters seems trivial
  • Lewes [ˈluɪs] seems like a good first or second guess (perhaps after [lu:s])
  • "Medina" The towns, rivers, and lakes in America are probably not named after the Arabian Medina. There is for example a River Medina on the Isle of Wright.
  • Skagit [ˈskædʒɪt]] seems like a good second or even first guess. Don't know how else they should have spelled it (Skajit?)
  • Slough No-one ever knows how to pronounce ough in a new word, but, in the UK slough for "a wet place" or "sadness" is pronounced the same as this town. In other words, it's probably people's first guess.

Afasmit 10:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, OK, I mostly agree. But while frex /hose/ for "Jose" can probably be considered intuitiv due to inevitable Spanish influence, I still don't think it would render /dZouz/ non-intuitiv.
"Ely" seems to suffer from the fact that close matches like "rely", "deny" or "defy" have /ai/ at the end... and since English seems to prefer <ee ea> over <e_e> for /i/, there aren't much regular <e_y> adjectiv formations. "Memy" maybe. (Analogous cases with other vowels are much more common - "tiny scaly rosy" etc.)
"Skagit" would be more regular as "skadgit". OTOH similar words have the same length flaw: "tragic magic" (tho "Fagin") so /æ/ would probably be gessed first, yes.
--Tropylium 19:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Please add Lubbock, Texas

I don't know all of the IPA symbols, so I'll just write it here and hopefully someone will add it to the article. The pronunciation of the final "o" in Lubbock is naively pronounced like an "aw" sound ("Lub bock"), but it is properly pronounced as a mirror-image of the "u" at the beginning, "Lubb uck"; but it is sometimes contorted even further (by those with an especially twangy Texas accent) to an "i" sound, "Lubb ick".

Two other place names in Texas with non-intuitive pronunciations are Lamesa ("la MEE sa") and Alvarado ("al var AY do"), both of which are English corruptions of Spanish words. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.182.97.121 (talk) 05:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

How about splitting these into groups

I can see several distinct sets - even the lead text acknowledges "that are pronounced in a way not easily deducible from the spelling" vs "in a way at variance with a better known name of the same spelling" - many in the second category seem to be named after things not listed that, if less notable, would clearly be in the first category, along with "half measures" like "Illinois" (the "s" is silent, but nothing else is french-like) --Random832(tc) 21:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

More distinctions could be whether the difference is elided syllables (like most of the british place names here), "wrong" vowels or stress, etc. --Random832(tc) 21:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Splitting page

I think the page is getting long enough it could stand to be split into toponyms (names of locations) and personal names. samwaltz 15:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Trewoon, Cornwall

Trewoon is pronounced True-un, with the stress on the first syllable. Don't know how to write it in IPA though. DuncanHill 01:04, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yreka, California

I've added this to the article again. If you have a reason you think it should be removed, please post it here. Tesseran 03:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Featherstonehaugh?

I came here looking for the pronunciation for Featherstonehaugh, but it seems to be gone. Has someone removed it? Vandalism? - Just a passer-by.

Fixed (a formatting error with strange effects) Afasmit 16:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Siouxsie

I really don't think "Siouxsie" needs to be on the list: it's a made-up name (real name Susan) Bmalee 03:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Please fix two problems, you who know "the truth"

1) The two different listings of "Cambridge" (one in British and one in non-British list) contradict each other. 2) The IPA for "Arkansas" as in "Arkansas River" is not consistent with the non-IPA pronuncitation approximation. It should have the IPA symbol for "flat a" as in "hat". I'd do it myself, but in the case of 1) I don't know, and in the case of 2) I don't know how to input IPA symbols. 69.237.149.115 03:37, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The IPA symbols can be copied-and-pasted from the bottom of the editing page. Arkansas River changed as you suggest: I have no personal knowledge here, but it now matches the real-text illustration. Thanks for pointing this out. The entries for Cambridge in the US and UK lists seem correct. --Old Moonraker 05:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


Newfoundland

Isn't the correct pronunciation with the stress on the final syllable (contrary to what's on the page now)? Can a local confirm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.237.241.193 (talk) 20:40, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Creamer, Paula

According to this interview, the correct pronunciation is not Kreimer/Cramer, she uses Kreemer/Creamer. Paaln 10:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Marietta, Georgia - Non-intuitive pronunciation or Shibboleth?

I know from experience that many people that were native to Marietta, Georgia, before 1970 still call their hometown May-retta. That pronunciation started to fall rapidly out of favor during the 1980's because of the increasing number of newcomers and this trend has done nothing but accelerate.

Would this be considered a non-intuitive pronunciation of Marietta or a Shibboleth? Which article would be most appropriate if I can find written documentation on this phenomena?

Zildgulf 08:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Torquay

Shouldn't /ˈtɔ:rki/ be /tɔ:rˈki/, or is this just an alternative? --Old Moonraker 10:20, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Changed to /tɔ:rˈki/ --Old Moonraker 07:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't understand the phonetic alphabetic but Torquay is not pronounced Torky to rhyme with Porky. The emphasis is on the second syallable - Tor-Kee might be a better representation. Dahliarose 10:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
This is what the IPA now says. I should have done the "porky/torky" as well: with the confirmation from Dahliarose I will do so. --Old Moonraker 10:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"Non-intuitive" isn't a word

Um, "non-intuitive" isn't a word. "Nonintuitive" (without a hyphen) is a very rare word, but the standard is "counterintuitive". I think the page name should be changed to "List of names in English with counterintuitive pronunciations" (honestly, "non-intuitive" is not a word).

"Nonintuitive" is in Merriam Webster (·)

"Counterintuitive" is in Merriam Webster (·), AHD (·), Encarta (·), Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary (·), Random House Dictionary (·), The Tormont Webster's Illustrated Encyclopedic Dictionary, WordNet (·), RhymeZone (·), Dictionary.com (·), and even Wiktionary (·).

— The Man in Question (talk) 07:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
That's fine with me. Non-intuitive is a word according to the OED though (first usage in 1856). Interestingly, "counterintuitive" is only first used a century later in a 1955 text by Noam Chomsky, who must have considered non-intuitive to have too few syllables. Afasmit (talk) 17:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Within the scope of OED, practically everything is a word.

— The Man in Question (talk) 10:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
OED just records usage. And non-intuitive is an intuitive word, apparently replaced by counterintuitive in the last couple a decades.
I'm fine with your title change, but am somewhat befuddled by your concept of names "intuitively pronounced counterintuitively" ;-) I think the original text was better English and less nonsensical (countersensical?) Afasmit (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Seems the denial of "non-intuitive" is contra-indicated. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Native American, Spanish, etc.?

So with this diff, an entry was removed because it isn't English. Because Chemeketa, Oregon really isn't a place, but is a place name currently used in, and briefly the former name of, Salem, Oregon, I rewrote the entry (which I didn't add) to clarify its status, which may be the source of confusion. However, many many of the listings aren't actually English--there are lots of Native American names and quite a bit of Spanish and French as well. So I don't think this list is for English words, but for names for places in English. Like the person who removed it, I don't think Chemeketa is that hard to pronounce, and I don't really care one way or the other, but if this is removed for not being English, the list should be pared down considerably. Of the ones I'm familiar with, Alsea, Clatskanie, Siuslaw, Tillamook, Tualatin, and Wallowa in Oregon, and Wahkiakum, Yakima, Chelan, etc., etc. in Washington are all Native American names. Coquille, Oregon is French and pronounced as in French, thus not counterintuitive. So either the inclusion criteria need to be changed, the lede made clearer and/or these items and others like them should should be removed. Katr67 (talk) 02:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

IMO, if a name originates in a language other than English and is pronounced "regularly" according to the spelling conventions of that language, it should not be included. That covers Coquille, Llanelli, Dun Laoghaire, Kiribati, etc, which should be excluded. Allowance should be made for anglicized approximations of exotic phonemes and sequences: I think Havre de Grace should be excluded. OTOH Beaulieu conforms to the conventions neither or French nor English so should be included; similarly for Des Moines, Avoch, San Rafael, etc. Most standardised Native American names conform to the spelling of English, Spanish, or French based on the exploring or colonising power, and can be treated on that basis: Etobicoke, Mackinac . Whether <ch> = // is considered native English or exotic French is a matter of opinion and affects the eligibility of Chemeketa, Chehalis, etc. "Counterintuitive" is a stronger condition than "nonintuitive": the stress-pattern of Chemeketa (and many English words) is not dedcucible from the spelling, but neither is it surprising. jnestorius(talk) 10:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Tottenham

What is the pronunciation of Tottenham in North London? I have only ever heard it pronounced as tɒtnəm. Is that just a slang pronunciation or is it recognised? Epa101 (talk) 15:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not slang: it's the standard pronunciation. Emphasis on first syllable. Put it in! --Old Moonraker (talk) 17:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I have added it now. I wonder whether /tɒ?'nəm/ would be better, with the second t glottalled. Any thoughts? Epa101 (talk) 20:10, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Great, but is the emphasis in the right place, on the first syllable? I can't do a glottal stop in front of an "n", but that wouldn't come naturally to a moonraker, would it! Nice idea, though. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
No. The glottal is phonetic not phonemic. It doesn't belong in a broad transcription of English. jnestorius(talk) 16:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I've changed the emphasised syllable to the first. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Devon, England

There are a number of villages in Devon not mentioned - can someone else who knows about these things do the IPA for them please?

Alverdiscott (OL-scot)
Aveton Gifford (AW-tun JI-fud)
Bridestowe (BRID-i-stow)
Ide (EED)
Widecombe (WID-i-cum]

Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I have zero knowledge of Devon but shall give this a go.

Alverdiscott /'ɒlskɒt/
Aveton Gifford /'ɔːtən 'dʒi:fəd/
Ide /'i:d/
Widecombe 'widɪcəm/

That is my interpretation. Is Ide said in the same way as the Islamic festival? That is what I presumed. Also, I intrepreted that the start of Gifford was a long I, as in an American gee, that's swell, rather that a short I: is that right? Epa101 (talk) 16:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I know more about Devon villages than Islamic festivals.... like the word "eel" but with a "d". No, short i for Gifford - "jifford". Looking at the Aveton Gifford page it seems that some local residents (newly arrived, I expect), don't know how to say it proper, but that's their problem... Source of my information is W. G. Hoskins, Devon, published 1954. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:40, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I see. I was right on Ide but wrong on Aveton Gifford. I'll add those to the list now. Epa101 (talk) 21:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
The stress followed enPR rather than IPA, so I corrected these in the article. kwami (talk) 07:46, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Halford

I don't see why this one is on the list:

Halford, Midlands — /ˈhɑlfɚd/;

This seems intuitive to me. If it is not, what is the intuitive pronunciation? /ˈhɒlfɚd/ perhaps?

In East Leeds, there lies Halton and Halton Moor. They are both pronounced with the ɒ, normally as /'ɒltən/ locally. (I have no idea whether the official pronunciation should have an /h/ on; people in East Leeds are unlikely to say an initial /h/ in any circumstance, but then there are some words in Oxford English that omit initial /h/ as well.) Anyway, I was thinking that either Halford, Midlands or Halton, Leeds is said counter-intuitively. The article suggests that it is the former whereas I think it is the latter. Any other views on this? Epa101 (talk) 19:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Rhoticity

I have altered the IPA for Barugh, Derby and Elsecar, as they all indicated rhotic pronunciations yet they are in non-rhotic areas of England. RP is non-rhotic as well.

I scanned the list for any others. It seems all right, as most of the other rhotic names were in either Scotland, Ireland or the west of England. One thing that I did notice was a possible inconsistency with notation. Normally, an /r/ is just written out as in:

  1. Barnstaple, Devon — /ˈbɑ:rnstəbl/; (bärnʹstə-bəl)
  2. Berkeley (all English towns) — /ˈbɑ:rkli/; (bärkʹlē)
  3. Cloghore, County Donegal — /klaɪˈhoʊr/; (klīʹhōr)
  4. Kilconquhar, Fife — /kiˈnʌxɑ:r/ or /kiˈn(j)ʌkɚ/; (kĭ-nŭʹKHär) or (kĭ-nŭʹkər) or (kĭ-nyŭʹkər)


Sometimes, /ɚ/ is used to indicate r-colouring.

  1. Glenzier, Dumfries and Galloway — /glɪŋɚ/; (glĭngʹər)
  2. Gloucester — /ˈglɒstɚ/; (glŏsʹtər)
  3. Worcester /ˈwʊstɚ/ (wŏŏsʹtər)

I am not an expert in the different sorts of rhoticity. Are these notations correct? As Gloucester and Worcester are quite near each other, it might be that /ɚ/ is their local form. I think that this is less likely for Glenzier, as I have only ever read of Scottish accents using the full /r/. Epa101 (talk) 10:32, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Once someone knows how to pronounce Glenzier, they'll pronounce or not pronounce the ar according to whether they speak a rhotic or non-rhotic dialect, so, per the IPA key, there's no need to specify this in the transcription. That's what we do with enPR, after all, and it's not a problem there. I've gone through and made them all rhotic, but kept all the non-rhotic vowel distinctions too, so that everyone can use this list. kwami (talk) 07:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Euxton, Lancashire

The IPA and enPR don't seem to match. /'ɛkstən/; (ēʹks-tən): is it exton (IPA) or eekston (enPR)? It may just be a typo for (ĕʹks-tən). --Old Moonraker (talk) 23:05, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no direct knowledge of the pronunciation but I am assuming a typo. Changing text accordingly. --Old Moonraker (talk) 11:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Winterbourne

-bourne as Bourne or as 'burn' (unstressed)? The Other Saluton (talk) 11:25, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

It's -born. Something like /'wɪntɝˌbɔːn/ but don't add it (if you think it's notable enough) without checking: my IPA transcriptions are a bit shaky. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Of course it's not worth adding then, since it's completely intuitive. The Other Saluton (talk) 08:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Anstruther

A small town in Fife, Scotland is pronounced Enster or Eanstar and means little stream. Fiefster (talk) 10:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Dorset

Beaminster /ˈbɛm-/

Poxwell /ˈpəʊks-/ (at least it's supposed to be)

Portesham /ˈpɒsəm/ is old-fashioned, currently /ˈpɔːtɪʃəm/ or /ˈpɔːtsəm/

There are probably more... 212.137.63.86 (talk) 09:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Mudeford /ˈmʌdɪfəd/
Fortuneswell /ˈfɔːtʲʊnz ˈwɛl/, but only the locals spell it as two words.
212.137.63.86 (talk) 09:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. Put in a /w/ in Poxwell; I can only assume it's pronounced. kwami (talk) 07:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

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