Talk:Matsudaira Katamori

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[edit]

Merged content from Katamori Matsudaira. I'll continue to work on this when I have time. Atsi Otani 07:05, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

I've tried to temporarily fix the article. The article is still underdeveloped, and I had to omit some information that used to be in the article. The previous version of the article can be found at User:Atsi_Otani/Matsudaira_Katamori_(archive). Please contact me on my talk page if you have any issues with my edit. I'll try to improve the article when I have time. Atsi Otani 14:32, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Military Governor of Kyoto during the Meiji Restoration era?? The Bakumatsu period was just before the Meiji Restoration, and it was during that time that he was the military governor of Kyoto, and it was then that the Shinsengumi was active. I don't know exactly when the Meiji Restoration began, but it would have been when the last shogun resigned. Ref. Romulus Hillsborough's work on that time...a few books and a website.

  • Katamori tried to achieve peaceful resolutions after the Battle of Toba Fushimi, but members of the new Meiji government refused. Does anybody know what exactly he tried? I mean, solutions for what?

Katamori apologized to the new government many times, invoking his good relationship with Emperor Komei and asking to have his domain be spared from attack. His neighboring lords in the north also tried to intervene on his behalf with the new government, to no avail. As a gesture of his submission, he retired from the family headship and placed himself in confinement in Aizu. It is notable that Aizu appears to have first focused in diplomatic efforts at reconciliation, and then moved toward a focus on military efforts. However, the two are not mutually exclusive-- Aizu had military contingencies even during the period of diplomacy following Toba-Fushimi. In the text "Meiji Nyuusu Jiten" (ISBN 4895631052) which compiles articles from a plethora of newspapers from 1868 to the start of the 20th century, there is a facsimile of a public apology written by Katamori, as well as a facsimile of a petition on his behalf by the lords of 14 major northern domains. In a rather notable turn of events, he refers in the public apology to Tokugawa Yoshinobu as being "foolish" in his actions. Will make those available here when I have more time. --Tadakuni 15:09, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Waht is the Ouetsu Reppan Doumei? A party? --Franczeska 21:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The Ouetsu Reppan Doumei, also known by some Western scholars as the "Northern Alliance of Confederated Domains," was a loose coalition formed around the Sendai, Shonai, Nihonmatsu, and Aizu domains, which eventually included most of the domains of northeastern Japan, including those in the entirety of Mutsu and Dewa Provinces, as well as the northern half of Echigo Province. Even the Matsumae clan of Hokkaido were signatories to the original pact. It had Sendai lord Date Yoshikuni as its commander-in-chief, and Prince Rinnoji no Miya Yoshihisa as its leader. However, the alliance fell apart soon after, due to inaction on the part of Date Yoshikuni and its inability to operate as a single, cohesive entity in military affairs. --Tadakuni 15:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I'd like to comment with regards to a recent edit by 218.236.14.20 :

During Katamori's service of the Shogun as the "Protector of Kyoto" and founder of the very famous "Shinsengumi" led by Kondō Isami and Hijikata Toshizō, had a illegitimate grandchild; Matudaira Kioko. She moved to the United States and passed away in 1980. She is survived by her grandson still is alive to this day in Kyoto (or in the United States, birth records show dual citizenship) Tokugawa Jayson. The Matsudaira family still holds property in Aizu as well as Kyoto.

First of all, Katamori is believed to have had only one child during his years in Kyoto. Even this is just a theory, given the similarity that Suzuki Kenkichi, the son of Katamori's servant Sekiyama Kayoko, had to him. Source:[1]. If you go by official records, Katamori did not have any children until just after the end of the Boshin War. If he maybe had one illegitimate son in the 1860s and had no other children until 1869, how could he have had grandchildren? Secondly, this editor once edited the "Tokugawa" page to talk about (presumably) himself, but referred to this mysterious "Matsudaira daughter" as having been an illegitimate child of a Tokugawa, and having been made to carry the Matsudaira surname because of mixed-marriage (this can be seen in the "history" mode on the Tokugawa page, which has since been thankfully made into a disambiguation page). Thirdly, if the person's name is "Tokugawa Jayson," why is his family the "Matsudaira family"? Also, some of the Aizu-Matsudaira live in Aizu (at least periodically, as in the case of Katamori's grandson Matsudaira Isao, who was governor of Fukushima Prefecture), but they do not, to my knowledge, hold property in Kyoto. Furthermore, on the page for Matsudaira Nobunori, this person claimed yet another line of descent, through Matsudaira Nobunori:

Nobunori's grand daughter passed away in 1980 and her recent youngest brother Tokugawa Nobutada, passed away in January 2007 Her son is still alive keeping the Mito-Tokugawa name alive. Tokugawa Jayson currently resides in Kyoto (records indicate dual citizenship in the U.S.) the last of the Mito-Tokugawa Han name to date.

As can be seen on the Japanese wikipedia page for "Mito Tokugawa-ke" ([2]), the current head of the family is Tokugawa Narimasa, and if the absence of a death date in the entry is to be believed, he is still alive and well.

The edit went on to advertise the Owari Tokugawa family's museum:

The two other major houses are Kii, and the largest Owari located in Nagoya is a beautfiul musuem if you would like to learn more through the personal family libraries.

Three different lineages claimed. "Matudaira Kioko" both the granddaughter of Matsudaira Katamori and Matsudaira Nobunori. Fellow editors, I trust you can smell something funny here.

Ultimately this smacks of a rather poor attempt at self-advertisement. I'd like to quote the following words from the "create page" page:

Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about yourself, your friends, your company or products, or articles created as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, will be deleted in accordance with our deletion policies. For more information, see Wikipedia:Spam.

Fellow editors, I hope this serves as a call for vigilance, responsibility, and honesty. Thank you. -Tadakuni 20:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Gosanke system[edit]

I started translating this article into Russian and am kinda confused with the fact that Takasu daimyos' status was high due to the fact they belonged to Owari house in the Gosanke system, and Owari was the senior branch of the Tokugawa family. But then the article states that Takasu daimyos adopted heirs from _senior branches such as Mito_. How so? Gosanke article states Mito was lesser house than Owari. Or do I miss something and Takasu daimyos were not actually so senior compared to Mito? Why they belonged to Owari house then? - ru:Ari —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.226.233.158 (talk) 12:52, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Aizu Pronunciation[edit]

I think the following sentence is incorrect: [Aizu was so unfamiliar to many people in early 1863 that many of them pronounced its name "kaizu" or "kwaizu," due to the contemporary spelling of "Aizu" (會津 as opposed to the present 会津).] 會 and 会 can both be pronounced "kai", since they are really the same character; the latter is a simplification of the former. I can see how Kyoto people would mis-pronounce Aizu as Kaizu, but it has nothing to do with the two different writings of the character. It has to do with the kun-yomi vs on-yomi of the character. --Westwind273 (talk) 04:49, 9 January 2013 (UTC)