Talk:Maximus the Greek

Renamed from Maksim Grek to Maximus the Greek

Hi. In case anyone objects, I should explain myself. 'Maksim Grek' is certainly his usual title in Slavic languages, but in English-language scholarship he is generally referred to as 'Maximus the Greek' or 'Maximos the Greek'. It is for this reason that I have been so bold as to change the title of the article, and I hope none will be offended by this. I'm also proposing to rewrite substantial amounts of the article as one of my research topics is the earlier (non-monastic) life of Maximus the Greek, in the period when he was Michael Trivolis. InfernoXV 13:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Albanian

See refs: [1] Guildenrich (talk) 16:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

The claim that Maximus was albanian is nonsense.He wasn't even an Epirotan.His parents were from Lakedaimona region,and probably from Monemvasia.Even if we accept that during those times a small albanian minority existed in Arta region,what about Monemvasia in SE Peloponnisos? Pavlos1988 (talk) 08:56, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

External links

• Maximus the Greek (Trivolis)

POV sourcing by banned user

I have removed [2], which is a poor quality, POV edit by long-banned User:Guildenrich. The source is from 1905 for crying out loud and hardly reliable. Given Guildenrich's penchant for POV-pushing using heavily outdated sources, there is nothing here. I also refer anyone interested to this thread [3]. Deucalionite may also be banned, but this particular edit of his is acceptable, and I stand by it. Athenean (talk) 18:55, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Sources on his origin

"profondo sotto ogni altro rispetto religioso e intellettuale fu l'influsso risentito da due altri albanesi nella loro permanenza nell'ltalia latina e cattolica: il [Leonico] Tomeo, filosofo all'università di Padova, e Massimo d'Arta, ivi discepolo suo e di Giano Lascaris". - La Civiltà cattolica, 1940, p. 349-50. https://books.google.al/books?id=IZ81j-8RcYwC&q=%22Massimo+d%27Arta%22&dq=%22Massimo+d%27Arta%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiUio7sjsrnAhVmwsQBHRALBzUQ6AEITjAE Edion Petriti (talk) 18:31, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Philaret Drozdov calls him "Albanian" (History of the Russian Church, 3rd period, Moscow, 1888, 5th edition, p. 148.)

Porfiriev and Elpatjevskij call him "a Greek Albanian", defining thus with the first epithet the cultural education in religious institutions, and with the second his nationality. Edion Petriti (talk) 18:56, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Maximus The Greek, a celebrated personage in Russian Church history, was born at Arta, in Albania, towards the end of the 15th century. After studying at Paris, Florence, and other cities then distinguished as seats of learning, he took the monastic vows at the cloister of Mount Athos. The grand-duke Vassili Ivanovitch, having requested the patriarch of Constantinople to send two persons to arrange and describe a vast number of Greek manuscripts and books that had recently been discovered in some part of the palace, Maximus was selected, and accordingly set out for Moscow. He was directed by Vassili to examine the books, and to select such as were most deserving of publication; but as he was then wholly ignorant of the Slavonic tongue, he had first to prepare a Latin version, which was afterwards rendered by others into Slavonian. It was thus that the translations of a "Psalter" with a commentary, and Chrysostom's "Homilies on St. John", were produced. Desirous of returning to his convent, it was only at the instances of the Czar, who wished him to revise the earlier translated books of the Greek Church, that he decided to remain, and he then undertook this task, for which he was now qualified by a successful mastery of the Slavonian. The diligence with which he executed it, resulting in many corrections, tended however only to raise up numerous enemies against him, among the rest Daniel the Metropolitan. But what more immediately tended to his disgrace was the firmness with which he opposed Vassili's divorce from his first wife, Salome (on account of barrenness), and his marriage with the princess Helena Glinski (comp. Duncan, Hist. of Russia, p. 350). Maximus was condemned by a synod, excommunicated as a heretic, and imprisoned in the Otrotch monastery at Tver in 1525. In this confinement he was for some time treated with great rigor, though the bishop of Tver interceded for him. At length removed to the Monastery of St. Sergius, he died there in 1556.

A great number of works by him are extant, chiefly in manuscript, on a variety of subjects—dogmatical, polemical, philosophical, etc, from which considerable information has been derived with regard to the opinions and prejudices of the clergy and people in that age; nor was he at all timid in reproving the abuses and vices of the times. This alone would account for the persecution which he drew down upon himself; but after his death even those who had been among the more violent against him admitted his innocence, nor was it long before his memory came to be regarded as that of a holy man and a martyr.—English Cyclop, s. v.; Rose, New Gen. Biog. Dict. s. v.

https://books.google.al/books?id=itosAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA918&dq=%22Maximus+the+Greek%22&hl=sq&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_5ezSgtHnAhVXAxAIHcopAR0Q6AEIQzAD#v=onepage&q=%22Maximus%20the%20Greek%22&f=false Edion Petriti (talk) 12:26, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

In 1968, newly discovered Siberian records shed light on the court trial of Maximus, and on the activities of the monk and thinker in the Rus. (https://books.google.al/books?id=0HAaAQAAMAAJ&q=%22Maxim+Grek%22&dq=%22Maxim+Grek%22&hl=sq&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi65_7ziNHnAhXxsIsKHW3JBCcQ6AEIYTAG)

Authorities on the life of Maximus the Greek:

• Mariuz
• Golubinski
• Smurlo
• Polevoj
• Vernadski
• Ikonomiev
• Lo Gatto
• Nilski

Edion Petriti (talk) 12:39, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Origins

Dr. K, please lets discuss on the talk page, I'm going to insert a section on his origins, with references, stating that he was either Greek or Albanian, because the sources vary.

According to Russian scholars like Smurlo, Vernadski and Polevoj, Maximus was born in Albania. A document of the Lavra of the Most Holy Trinity states he was originally from "the city of Arta". Some like to have him born in Narta, Vlora but this is quite improbable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edion Petriti (talk • contribs) 19:49, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

There is no controversy about Maximus's origins in the RS. Your sources are foreign language obsolete relics, some from the 19th century and none of them is recent. I have added extremely reliable English language modern 21st century sources from Springer, Cambridge University press, specialist encyclopedias etc. all of which agree that his origins were Greek. There will be no POV-pushing on this article. Also don't make this personal. It has nothing to do with me. The problem lies with your POV-pushing. So don't start discussions calling my username. Dr. K. 21:53, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Let me say that you were quite uncivil, and on the verge of arrogance in your edits. And you know very well that being called a Greek in humanist Italy meant simply a Greek Orthodox or adherent of Eastern Christianity. The point is that there are sources who state that he was Albanian, and this has nothing to do with the present city of Arta being in Greece. Civilta' Cattolica is one of them, and a most serious one. I have in my possession Mariuz's article, a well-sourced study on his Italian years. I think uploading it on the internet would do a great deal of good to this discussion. And there is no need of 10-12 sources, one will do if he really was a Romaeus and a Hellene in the modern sense, which I doubt he was. Edion Petriti (talk) 12:28, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

This is the last time you address me personally to attack me. See WP:NPA. But I'm not surprised because personal attacks and POV-pushing go hand in hand. Next time you do that, I will leave a formal warning on your talk. This is not a kindergarten. The reliable sources have spoken. No amount of original research (And you know very well that being called a Greek in humanist Italy meant simply a Greek Orthodox or adherent of Eastern Christianity. and And there is no need of 10-12 sources, one will do if he really was a Romaeus and a Hellene in the modern sense, which I doubt he was.) and personal attacks can hide your POV. I am not going to discuss this further with you, as predictably you suffer from a bad case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Just a piece of advice going forward: Do not attempt insertion of your obsolete sources until you gain WP:CONSENSUS to do so, which clearly you don't have. Dr. K. 14:25, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

(ec) @EdionPetriti: Your sources are very outdated, see WP:AGEMATTERS. Khirurg (talk) 15:59, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

@Khirurg: "Older sources may be inaccurate"... or "Sometimes sources are too new to use". "With regard to historical events, older reports (closer to the event, but not too close such that they are prone to the errors of breaking news) tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing." (WP:AGEMATTERS). Edion Petriti (talk) 10:18, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

I think you are being too clever by half. You are trying to eliminate the verdict of modern scholarship by appealing to obsolete relics of the past. It won't work. The obsolete sources you quote are known by the modern scholars, yet no modern scholar has quoted them. I have provided 21 modern scholarly sources from universities and specialist institutes and noone quotes any of your obsolete relics. La Civiltà Cattolica did not disappear in the fire of the Library of Alexandria and you have not performed a miracle digging it up from some lost papyrus. It's a known Jesuit publication. Everyone knows about it yet they don't use it or quote from it. Why? Because it is obsolete. Same goes with the few other obsolete relics of the past you use as sources to push a nationalist POV by recontructing in your own mind an alternate nationalist interpretation of Maximus's origin based on obsolete old sources while rejecting the verdict of all modern scholarship. Dr. K. 18:40, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

I think you two are being too clever by half, making up one whole clever. You have to decide which of you is going to argue with me, because I specifically directed the comment to @Khirurg. And what happened to WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, WP:CONSENSUS etc.? ... you're not citing neither of them! Edion Petriti (talk) 14:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Is this [4] some kind of joke? "Born in Arta in Albania"? I hate to break it to you, but a) Arta was never in Albania, and b) there was no Albania at the time, only the Ottoman Empire. So kindly stop wasting our time with these junk sources. Khirurg (talk) 17:12, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Have you ever heard of Falsifiability? Well, you heard about it now. The source states what it states, I'm not saying anything. WP:Falsifiability Edion Petriti (talk) 12:03, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Utter nonsense. Your sources are demonstrably junk. There was no Albania at the time of Maximus. Arta was in the Ottoman empire. But you were told that already. You have no case. Time to drop the stick. Dr. K. 15:38, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Khirurg and Dr.K are both correct and I agree with them. Blue Branson (talk) 10:35, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Sources

• (EN) David Arans, A Note on the Lost Library of the Moscow Tsars, in The Journal of Library History, XVIII, nº 3, The University of Texas Press, 1983, pp. 304–316.
• (FR) Élie Denissoff, Maxime le Grec et l'Occident : contribution á l'histoire de la pensée religieuse et philosophique de Michel Trivolis, Parigi, Louvain, 1943.
• M. Donadeo, Preghiere a S. Andreij Rubliov e ad altri santi russi canonizzati dal Patriarcato di Mosca dal 1977 al 1993, Genova, 1995.
• (RU) E. E. Golubinskii, Istoriia Russkoi Tserkvi, II, Mosca, Universitetskaia Tipografiia, 1900.
• (EN) Jack V. Haney, From Italy to Muscovy : the life and works of Maxim the Greek, Monaco di Baviera, W. Fink, 1973.
• (RU) A. I. Ivanov, Literaturnoe nasledie Maksima Greka; kharakteristika, atributsii, bibliografiia, San Pietroburgo, Nauka, 1969.
• (EN) Pierre Kovalevsky, Saint Sergius and Russian Spirituality, New York, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, 1976.
• (EN) William K. Medlin e Christos G. Patrinelis, Renaissance Influences and Religious Reforms in Russia, Ginevra, Librairie Droz., 1971.
• (RU) N V Sinitsyna, Maksim Grek v Rossii, Mosca, Nauka, 1977.
• (DE) Bernhard Schultze, Maksim Grek als Theologe, Roma, Pont. Institutum Orientalium Studiorum, 1963.
• (EN) The New Encyclopædia Britannica, VII, Chicago, Encyclopædia Britannica, 2002.
• (EN) Joseph L. Wieczynski, The Modern Encyclopedia of Russian and Soviet History, Gulf Breeze, Academic International Press, 1976. Edion Petriti (talk) 12:34, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
• Michail Enev: "Mount Athos: Zograph Monastery". Kibela Publishers, 1994, p. 12
• Charles George Herbermann: "The Catholic Encyclopedia: An International Work of ...", Volume 13, 1913, Page 269
• Alfred Rambaud, ‎Nathan Haskell Dole: History of Russia from the Earliest Times to 1882 - Volume 1, 1970, Page 242: Strangers continued, though in small numbers, to come to Moscow. she most illustrious of them was Maximus, surnamed the Greek, a monk of Mount Athos, and native of Arta, in Albania. In his youth he had studied at Venice and at Florence, ...

Edion Petriti (talk) 15:34, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

• Maksim Grek, a native of Albania and monk at the Mount Athos Monastery, arrived in Russia by official invitation to correct the theological books and spent ten years there (1515-25) in freedom, being in confinement for the remainder of his life, condemned by a theological council. - Vladimir Ėmmanuilovich Grabarʹ, William Elliott Butler: "The History of International Law in Russia, 1647-1917: A Bio- Bibliographical Study". Oxford monographs in international law. Clarendon Press, 1990, Page 18

(https://books.google.al/books?id=WCXgAAAAMAAJ&q=%22Maksim+Grek,+a+native+of+Albania%22&dq=%22Maksim+Grek,+a+native+of+Albania%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjP1oSw3ufnAhU9wsQBHUq9CDcQ6AEIJjAA) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edion Petriti (talk • contribs) 13:15, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

• "Maksim Grek era nato in Albania verso il 1480"

• Maksim Grek (Michele Trivolis) era nato in Albania nel 1480. Edion Petriti (talk) 13:27, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

• Albanian

References

Lakedaimon

There is no indication in his works so far, that he signed his works this way. See https://books.google.al/books?id=TgdKAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:%22maximus+graecus%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7uIfvmPHnAhVqpYsKHRgkBuIQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Edion Petriti (talk) 07:21, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

It's already cited in the article to the Springer encyclopedia in an article by Greek scholar and Maximus specialist Georgios Steiris. See Google link. WP:IDHT? Dr. K. 09:42, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

The Works of Maximus are online, can you please be so kind and show me where? I don't want to use the synonym "trash" for your sourcxes. Also, I'm going to use the Russian icon, close to the time of Maximus, whose origin is indicated here, in Elie Denisoff: https://www.scribd.com/document/342276470/Maxime-le-Grec-et-l-Occident-par-Denissoff-Elie-1893-19-1943 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edion Petriti (talk • contribs) 12:42, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

No, it doesn't work like that on Wikipedia. On Wikipedia we go by WP:VERIFIABILITY not WP:TRUTH. You calling the article in the Springer encyclopedia by Greek scholar and Maximus specialist Dr Georgios Steiris, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Medieval and Renaissance PhilosophyFaculty of Philosophy, Pedagogy, PsychologySchool of Philosophy National and Kapodistrian University of Athens trash and trying to check Maximus's works to prove Steiris wrong is the definition of WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH and WP:IDHT. Dr. K. 16:06, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Dr.K's valid analysis. Blue Branson (talk) 10:35, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Sketch

Saint Maximus the Greek

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