Talk:Medes

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What is the beginning date of the Median Empire?[edit]

So why has the beginning date of the Median Empire keep changing from 728 BCE to 615 BCE every other hour? I recently got into Iranian history, and I would like to know the accurate timeline of when the Medes became an empire. Library of Babylon (talk) 10:17, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Ok. Are you the IP I just reverted? We had an editor with a very poor command on English edit-warring on this and other articles also, one of the reasons.
First, academic sources differ as to how they describe the Median state, many using Kingdom, possibly more using Empire. So that's one problem. Secondly, there's an attempt to date it from Deioces, who likely never existed, or Kashtariti (I see the source for that is 19th century). Although I wouldn't use the Iranian Chamber of Commerce as a source, it's interesting to see that they don't call him a king.[1] As for Kashtariti, I find sources calling him a king, and others calling him a chieftain or in this source a city lord.[2].
The source I added says:
"During the early stages of their history the Medes were probably little more than a loose confederation of tribes, but by the seventh century BCE they are thought to have controlled an extensive area around their main city of Ecbatana (modern Hamadan), while the subject Persians were settled in Fars. By 612 BCE the Medes, under their king Cyaxares, were strong enough to overthrow, in alliance with the Babylonians, the ailing Assyrian state. In spite of all this, modern scholarship has tended to be sceptical about the existence of a united Median “kingdom” or “state”, at least for most of the 7th century BCE. Thus, David Stronach has recently written that “there arc, quite simply, no sound grounds for postulating the existence of a vigorous, separate and united Median kingdom at any date substantially before 615 BC”.41" Other sources differ, but I didn't want to use George Rawlinson, who is too antiquated, so I removed it.

Doug Weller (talk) 11:19, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

No I didn't even change anything. I just saw that the date kept changing when I was looking for information on the Median Empire on Wikipedia. It was just getting annoying I couldn't understand what the right date was. So I created this account for a moments use to see what was going on. Anyways, thanks for the explaination and information on the Median Empire. It was extemely helpful. Library of Babylon (talk) 12:23, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Today a new account told me that the Cambridge History of Iran says it started in 678. I'll need a quote because it actuall says says "The rise of the Median kingdom in c. 673-672 seems to be beyond all doubt: it is already mentioned, side by side with Urartu, HubuSkia and the Land of the Mannaeans in a letter from the royal archives (No. 434) which can be dated from between the years 672 and 669, and later in an enumeration of independent and dependent kingdoms, as well as of Assyrian and Babylonian provinces dating from between the years 669 and 652. Here Media is named at the end of the list, among the independent states, i.e. after Ashkelon, Edom, Moab, Ammon and Ethiopia, and before the Land of the Mannaeans and the Chaldaean Sea-land none of which were at the time dependent on Assyria. The Assyrians, if one leaves out of account a raid which in 660-659 may have affected the outskirts of the Median kingdom, no longer invaded Media, which explains the temporary silence of cuneiform inscriptions on the history of that country. In the absence, too, of authentic Median sources we have to seek information from Greek authors. Of their writings on the history of Media those of Herodotus have been preserved in full, and those of Ctesias only in excerpts and digests which often make his unreliable account seem even fantastic. The names of the Median kings given by Ctesias are indeed Median, but they must belong to contemporaries he knew from his stay at the Persian court at the end of the 5 th century b.c., for they are certainly not the names of rulers of the Median kingdom. In general it is often a hopeless task to try to extract something rational from his narrative. His chronology, as was already proved by Volney at the beginning of the 19th century, is nothing but the inverted and doubled chronological system of Herodotus. Ctesias himself admits that his aim was to refute Herodotus. Herodotus* information, by contrast, is reliable within the limits of what this conscientious author succeeded in rescuing from oblivion, but one must bear in mind that he wrote his history of Asia only from oral tradition two or three hundred years after the events."
And on page 115 "Therefore, between 672 and the beginning of the last Assyro-Median war, that is, not later than 615, the tiny “kingdoms” and independent strongholds which previously had determined the forms of polity on Median territory, were reduced and absorbed. " So in 678 there were tiny kingdoms and independent strongholds. Doug Weller (talk) 17:33, 9 September 2015 (UTC)