Talk:Milligan Street, Perth

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Renaming from Melbourne Rd[edit]

The 1923 news reference says that Melbourne Rd was renamed to Milligan St in 1923 and that the two previously-distinct roads were to be "regarded as one thoroughfare". However there are numerous later references in Trove to Melbourne Rd - far too many, and for far too long (20+ years) to just ignore. Perhaps the Council changed its mind. Obviously the road did get renamed at some point, because it is not there now. Further references to the name changing would be helpful. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:37, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

This item Town Clerk, Perth. Melbourne Road change of name to Milligan Street in the State Records Office supports the name change in 1923, but is not online. Mitch Ames (talk) 14:03, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
The newly added Government Gazette reference (accessible online) confirms the name change in 1923. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:53, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

When did it close between Wellington and Roe[edit]

Milligan does not continue through between Wellington and Roe, but the article doesn't say when it closed - because I haven't yet found a reliable source for the closure. The article needs updating to include this. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:37, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I've narrowed it down to between 1952 and 1974; I suspect that it was removed as part of the constructions of the Perth Entertainment Centre and its carpark, but it would be nice to find a reference that says so explicitly. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:59, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Historical aerial photography from Landgate's map viewer [1] narrows it down to between 1965 and 1974 - Evad37 [talk] 10:15, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
I've continually amazed at the resources available on the internet, if one just knows where to look! Mitch Ames (talk) 12:19, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Actually, it looks like in 1965, Milligan Street only went from Wellington up to the railways, not over them. - Evad37 [talk] 10:18, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
This photo seems to show Milligan continuing north past Wellington in 1972 - Evad37 [talk] 10:25, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
To make things more confusing, this article proposes connecting the two (after removing the railway line) in 1950, which would suggest that they weren't connected then. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:54, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Possibly the road was closed at the rail crossing, but it still existed between Wellington and the rail line. This edit may be inaccurate because the "section of road" was still there after the 1930s (not "removed") - as indicated by map in [2] and previously mentioned photographs - although whether it was gazetted as a road is unknown. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:56, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
This record from the State Records Office may shed some light on the issue. According to the MRA, the crossing was closed in the 1930s. It is possible the crossing remained open for limited traffic. There are also some photos of the area that may provide clues. According the captions on the photos, it seems the crossing was a pedestrian crossing by the mid-1960s. Hack (talk) 01:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── This Gazette says that "Part of Melbourne Road" was "wholly closed" in 1911. Does anyone where we might find a copy of "plan P.W.D., W.A.., No. 15462, of the said railway"? Mitch Ames (talk) 13:13, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

According to an e-mail from the City of Perth History Centre, they have "a 1929 City of Perth map and on it the portion of the road between Wellington and Roe Street is not there." I haven't seem the map, but apparently it is available for viewing at the History Centre. This 1918 map shows the section of road ("bourne St" - Melbourne St?) as being "closed", as does this 1925 map. I'm not sure that the existing reference saying 1930s is correct, but I'm also aware that relying on these maps may constitute original research and/or over-reliance on primary sources. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:30, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The most recent change in the article [3] doesn't actually tell the whole story. While it was officially closed in 1911, we have photographic evidence, as discussed above, that the physical roadway still existed and appeared to be open to traffic until the 1970s. - Evad37 [talk] 15:54, 28 June 2014 (UTC) struck 00:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

We have no such thing. The road was closed in 1911. That the asphalt may have still existed, depending on how one reads aerial photos, until the 1970s may warrant mentioning as an aside if it can be well-enough sourced, but it's hardly crucial. Suggesting that cars were still going across it fifty years after every reliable source says it closed is well into the realm of "making shit up". The Drover's Wife (talk) 16:49, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I must have been really tired last night, cause when I read that diff, it (for some bizarre reason) looked like the "The road was removed in 1974,..." bit wasn't in there anymore, but it still is, with the same sources. Don't drive tired, and don't edit tired (glad I at least had the sense to talkpage it, and not do something stupid in mainspace) Evad37 [talk] 00:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
I've sent an e-mail to Perth City Link asking them where they got "1930s" from, just in case it case they can throw any more light on the matter. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:26, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Map of the 1838, 1845 layout[edit]

The article could use a map showing the 1838 and 1845 layouts to help clarify the description. The book that I have (Western Australia: An atlas of human endeavour: 1829–1979) includes such maps, but they are "derived from" the original maps, not simply reproductions of them, thus still covered by copyright so I can't just scan and upload them. If anyone has easy access to or can create free images of the original maps, that would be useful. Otherwise I might just create my own sketches with the necessary details and use them (but drawing is not my forte). Mitch Ames (talk) 11:37, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's a map dated 18 Feb 1838, republished in the Western Mail on 18 Dec 1924 - Evad37 [talk] 11:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm also watching Talk:Melbourne Hotel (Perth)#On the corner of Milligan (formerly Melbourne) and I'll grab some of the info from there as well. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:16, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Road infobox[edit]

The road infobox needs more information, but I'm not sure how to list the length and end points of a road that is split in two, as this one is. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:54, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I have added details about the various sections to the infobox. As for the length, we could use the total length for all sections, as long as that is clarified in the body of the article. - Evad37 [talk] 13:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Continues north over Wellington Street?[edit]

Seems a bit dubious to me. Do we have a source that this section is an extension of Milligan Street, rather than a private road connecting to the car park? The current source places the name Milligan Street only on the part south of the intersection, and Main Roads WA's interactive mapping system [4] very clearly shows no (public) road north of Wellington Street – Milligan Street just ends there. - Evad37 [talk]

Google Maps shows that section as being Milligan St, but I agree that Main Roads' is a more reliable source. I've removed that bit from the article. Mitch Ames (talk) 14:19, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
This Metropolitan Redevelopment Authority article says:

The MRA is nearing completion of its Milligan Street precinct works, including the new Milligan Street road extension which provides vehicle access into the precinct and Perth Arena underground car park.

I don't think it's enough to overrule the Main Roads ref, but it is interesting. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:07, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
The extension also gets mentioned in the March 2012 newsletter. [5] Mitch Ames (talk) 11:08, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Also Link Master Plan Brochure page 25, and Connect April 2013, page 5. Perhaps what we see at the moment is that extension, but it's not gazetted yet. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Photo request[edit]

I am adding a reqphoto tag because there doesn't seem to be any good pictures of this street on Wikimedia Commons, just some public art.Zigzig20s (talk) 17:12, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Inclusion of birth/death years for people in this article[edit]

I disagree with this inclusion of birth/death years for William Lane Milligan and Matthew Hale (I had previously removed them [6][7]). The years are irrelevant to the article's subject, Milligan St, and add unnecessary clutter. There are links to articles about those particular people for those who want more information about the people (instead of the street). Even without the links (eg if someone were reading a printed copy) the text "the original owner of the land..." and "the Anglican Bishop of Perth", as well as the inline references, identify those people uniquely.

Other editors' opinions are sought, as are links to any specific MOS guidelines on the matter. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Using birth/death years on first mention is part of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies – but this article is obviously not a biography, so that guideline doesn't apply in this case. I agree with Mitch on the lack of relevance for this particular article. The dates are if anything a bit distracting, breaking up the sentences with unneeded parentheses, when the time context can actually be derived from the other dates in the paragraph: "as early as 1838 ... in 1845", "In 1863..." - Evad37 [talk] 14:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)
I disagree, as I believe the dates bring more context to this article. It is also a widely used practice on Wikipedia.Zigzig20s (talk) 12:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
This is an article about a street - over-detailed info about people in an article like this does not enhance the article or provide wider context. The text of the article can do it without bio details - I agree with Evad on this. satusuro 13:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
I'd have to agree with Mitch, Evad & Satu on this one using the birth/death dates is superfluous to the article.Dan arndt (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
It's only birth and death dates. It does bring some good context, to know if the street was named after someone who was alive recently or not. I'm not suggesting adding a full biography to this page. But I don't want to have to face more personal attacks and bullying tactics from any of you, so suit yourself and be wrong and remove useful information from Wikipedia to make it look more irrelevant if you want.Zigzig20s (talk) 15:33, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
The article does cover that:
For Hale, one can reasonably deduce from the wording "In 1863 ... was rezoned and transferred to Matthew Hale, ..." that Hale was alive at the time.
For Milligan: "Milligan Street appears ... as early as 1838 ... named after Dr William Lane Milligan, the original owner of the land on ... Milligan St ..." - again one can deduce that Milligan was alive at about the time the street was named. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:49, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
It would be a much better use of your time to go take a few pictures of this street and/or expand Milligan's page btw. Try to be part of the solution, not the problem. Our internet is down again, so I can't do it right now.Zigzig20s (talk) 15:35, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
What do you mean by "personal attacks and bullying tactics"? Every comment here has been discussing content and/or policies/guidelines - no-one has been calling you names, or comparing you to a Nazi, or telling you that you can't edit, or doing anything else covered by WP:NPA & WP:BULLY. While you may not also agree with the outcome, WP:CONSENSUS is how Wikipedia works, including through discussions such as this one. - Evad37 [talk] 16:04, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I've removed the years again. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:49, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more, but as I said I don't want to be the victim of a cabal.Zigzig20s (talk) 13:17, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Disambiguation style[edit]

Note: There is a proposal at WT:AURD#Move_articles_to_bracket_disambiguation to rename this article (and others) to conform to the WP:AURDNAME guideline – specifically, using brackets instead of a comma for disambiguation. - Evad37 [talk] 09:00, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

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