Talk:Namasudra

Someone polluting this article

Some commentators trying promote Four Varna Hindu Apartheid Of Ved, Gita, etc through this article and promoting the apartheid terms like "Chandala" and "Sudra". Some Upper Varna Hindus( or Upper Caste) spreads the lie that sudra is not pejorative and these caste includes also those avoid using past "sudra tags" ; the hard truth is " Sudra means unconditional serving varna(class of Hindu Religion as per Manusmiriti, Rikved-10th, Gita and all later scriptures) and this means servants from heaven and by birth

what else "Apartheid" is??? When they are in problem, these tell," Our religion is 'basudhoibo kutumbokomo'

'madhukshoronti sindhobee'; the truth is these are those of 'everything written in this land' and they promote as religion or Hinduism, and then say, 'I do not know what Hinduism is' or 'Hinduism is everything' but the truth is 'in their heart they believe in Gita , the 'maoya krityong..' the foundation of Hindu Apartheid.' Read Ambedkaar , everything will be clear as day light.

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Recent removal of sourced cotent

Hey Sitush, I couldn't understand why you have removed the sourced content, which is another opinion regarding the origin / anthropometry / proximity to other to other groups of people, and is relevant in the context, and was incorporated keeping WP:NPOV in mind. Sources are cited along with url in order to ensure easy verifiablity; that doesn't mean snippet views are not acceptable. Also, you had mentioned in the past in some discussions that even if an online link is not available but the source is verifiable, then the same may also be used as a source. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 06:09, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

It appeared to me that you had used the snippet view, which is indeed not acceptable because those views lack context. I would be interested to see more of that source. I tried using various proxies to get at Google Books via other countries' settings but it consistently returned the same small selection that you cite and which, frankly, seems rather meaningless. If it is to go back in, I think it needs a explanation in the article text. Bear in mind that T. C. Raychaudhuri was brought up in the school of scientific racism and was teaching from the early 1920s. - Sitush (talk) 09:28, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I should add that the quote referred to the Nisadic people. That seems to be a reference to the mythological Nisadha kingdom, which would fit with the book in which Raychaudhuri is cited because it is an attempt to connect actual ethnic groups to ancient literary references. If they're mythological, there can be no actual connection. - Sitush (talk) 09:43, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

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Reference about Namasudras from Banglapedia, the National Encyclopedia of Bangladesh

Hi, I see that the Namasudra wikipedia page is more of a stub than a well laid out wiki page. It seems that the official wikipedia of Bangladesh, Banglapedia has a more accurate and informative post about Namasudras. I will give the link here, http://en.banglapedia.org/index.php?title=Namasudras . It seems one moderator, Sitush has asked about the citations and sourcing of mythology and other folklore about Namasudras. I would like to inform him that caste is an extremely complex and confusing subject in India and the world. It is very difficult to get any reliable information about any caste in India as it a loaded topic and prone to both positive and negative bias. However the Banglapedia website does mention about Vallalcharita(ie about Ballal Sen`s rule) which can be taken as a semi reliable source of mythology. Having said that I would mention that even ancient Indian texts are prone to deceitful manipulation by casteist,racist and Brahmanical writers.

Also I would like to add that very little has been mentioned about Namasudras and their role in British colonial governments and post colonial independent Indian govts of Bengal(eg Jogendranath Mondal,Kanti Biswas etc). This information can be added here from the Banglapedia article. Also certain terms like Chandal/avarna which are slurs should be avoided. Their use in pre colonial Indian parlance is debated and may have been largely confined to orthodox Brahminical texts. It is equivalent to the N-word used for black people and many Indian historians doubt if they were ever in verbal use. Obviously modern India no longer recognises those terms. AFAIK the chandals of vedas and the Namasudras are not the same. There are other points the article fails to mention like their post independence(post 1947 and 1970) exodus from Bangladesh to India,mainly to S 24 Paraganas,Bongaon and Nadia district of West Bengal.The Matua movement based in Sri Orakandi region of Bangladesh and CS Mead`s contributions should also be touched upon.

I humbly hope the moderators,namely Sitush and Ekdalian take note of my suggestions and see that there is meaningful and non controversial addition to this article. I commend them for their work and I would be ever grateful to contribute here if they require me to do so.

Namasudras at

Pratik Maitra (talk) 18:06, 13 September 2018 (UTC)Pratik Maitra

Edit: Just wanted to add that I finally created an account so as to ease the process of communication.

Do not rely much on Bnaglapedia.It often contains a lot of OR, which I've not found elsewhere.∯WBG^converse 14:48, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree that the article is incomplete and I will spend major time to the development of this article.Feel free to chime in and know, that everybody is free to contribute to any article over here shall he abide by WP:5P and be willing to discuss edits with users, if they are challenged.

We are not righting great wrongs.Purans, Vallalcharit et al are not reliable sources.If any secondary source does mentions Namasudras by deriving from it, we can mention the aspects.As to chandals, many authors have documented it's usage and we won't second-guess them unless other authors of repute challenge them.Best,∯WBG^converse 14:48, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for adding some more stuff to the article. It is really a nice addition.

I used to believe Banglapedia being an official wikipedia would contain little OR as they claim to be verified by over 1450 scholars(their own website claims so). Glad to know it is not so.

As for my own contribution I can only chip in what I know of their political leaders like Kanti Biswas,the former education minister of West Bengal under the Communist Regime. Also I have already mentioned about Jogendranath Mandal,the first law minister of Pakistan.

Kanti Biswas at https://cpim.org/pressbriefs/cpim-condoles-death-comrade-kanti-biswas and again http://indianculturalforum.in/2017/06/17/confessions-of-a-namasudra-communist/ and finally https://www.indiatoday.in/pti-feed/story/cpim-leader-kanti-biswas-passes-away-597539-2016-04-28 .

As for sourcing I only have newspapers and other reports. The thing is written knowledge was not much in vogue in ancient/medieval and even present India unlike the West where there were multiple sources recording a single event. Most of what we know of Indian history was from sources/authors who recorded events in a mythological/fan fiction manner decades if not centuries later after the original event. Indian history/mythology was passed down orally even in the medieval ages. So it is prone to great bias and myth making. As a result I hardly have reliable sources. However Shekar Bandopadhyay`s work on Namasudras is a very well written and probably the most reliable source on the community. He is a NZ historian of Indian origin and I believe a great deal of information can be extracted from his book on this caste. ( Caste, Protest and Identity in Colonial India: The Namasudras of Bengal,1872-1947)

(Source: https://www.amazon.in/Caste-Protest-Identity-Colonial-India/dp/0198075960 )

As for the community`s own writings they have their own folklore and origin myths based on the Matua sect/religion they follow. The main corpus of the Matua sect/religion is probably the Harichad Lilamrita,ie the tellings or teachings of their prophet Sri Harichad Thakur whom Namasudras revere as the 10th reincarnation of Sri Vishnu. It is probably from that mythological book the members of the community claim their Brahmanic status and descent from Namas rishi. Finding a different sect was their way of Sanskritisation.

For a more realistic and modern writing I would suggest the famed Dalit writer of WB, Manoranjan Byapari(a self proclaimed Namasudra) and his part autobiographical work Ittibrite Chandal Jiban or its English avatar, Interrogating My Chandal Life: An Autobiography of a Dalit,(which has now been translated to English.I recently bought an English copy of it from Amazon and its also avaialable on Kindle.)

(Source: https://www.amazon.in/Interrogating-My-Chandal-Life-Autobiography/dp/9381345139/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1537312813&sr=1-1&refinements=p_27%3AManoranjan+Byapari )

(About the author : https://www.thehindu.com/society/i-write-because-i-cant-kill-an-interview-with-manoranjan-byapari/article23926466.ece )

There is also considerable political manoeuvering with the community as they had generally formed a large voting block in erswhile Bengal province and now in WB.

(Source: https://www.telegraphindia.com/1101229/jsp/bengal/story_13364470.jsp)

Edit: I think I messed up my para spacing and other things while editing this reply. I am relatively new and anyone feel free to correct my para spacing.

Pratik Maitra (talk) 23:52, 18 September 2018 (UTC)Pratik Maitra — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pratik Maitra (talk • contribs) 23:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Source note

http://125.22.40.134:8082/jspui/bitstream/123456789/2420/1/Bandhopadhyay%2c%20CASTE%20PROTEST%20AND%20IDENTITY%20COLONIAL%20INDIA%20%28210-237%29.pdf-See.∯WBG^converse 08:26, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

Role of Church and Rev C.S.Mead and The Misconception of Name Change Plea

This matter has not been mentioned at all. It was the Church which first evoked the sense of self-dignity. And it eas Rev C.S. Mead who was the man behind every communication with British India Govt Officials otherwise this community would have also been like the others. Their folk mythology has also not been mentioned at all. Their identity movement has been completely ignored in the article. Of course, it has been mentioned it was not a community of Four-Varnas or Chaturvarna. But the category has not been corrected. This is not a "Sudra" community but this information has been ignored. The Vyavastha is an important document but ignored. It played a great role in the name change. These things should be incorporated.117.194.195.157 (talk) 18:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Provide Reliable sources that supports your points and I'll be happy to include them whilst considering the aspects of due weightage et al. ∯WBG^converse 19:02, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Regarding Vyvastha which was submitted with the Representation of 'Name Change in Census Documents' to the Then British India Govt Officials may be found in this Ph.D. Thesis. He is an Associate Professor of History, WBES (may directly communicate with him) and most probably a scholar of Prof Hiteshranjan Sannyal. The Vyavastha includes a Note of Dissent in respect of the "Sudra" tag and also mentions this is 'for the time being'. This document has not been mentioned by Prof Sekhar Banerjee and that interprets that the community wanted to be tagged as "Sudra" and still in one place he has mentioned the community was unhappy for being mentioned as "Hindu" in 1941!! Actually now the Wikipedia page has the time started from '1840', what about the past, no RS?? The Book "Biswas, Ratan Kumar (2010). Namasudra Movements In Bengal (1872-1947). Progressive Book Forum. p. 158-160. ISBN 978-81-88006-19-9." 117.227.113.8 (talk) 09:59, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

Dr Sekhar Banerjee himself has mentioned the role of Rev C.S.Mead regarding the establishment of Schools and the representation of Appeals in respect of name change . And he also mentions that Guruchand Thakur of Namo community was the defacto all in all in the movement. Only one document Sekhar Banerjee has not mentioned is "Vyavastha" which contains a note of dissent in respect of "Sudra" tag, maybe as a member of Bengali Upper Varna Bhadraloke, he did not want to mention the consent of The Purohit Varna Pundits.117.194.196.215 (talk) 13:11, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

The Ridiculous Racist Tag for Risely By The Editor Then Why Not Casteist Angle for Bhadroloks

Straight cut copying of <https://books.google.co.in/books?id=MHEMAQAAMAAJ&q=namasudra&dq=namasudra&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjas8vpycHdAhVIsI8KHe2WBDo4ChDoAQgwMAI>, the views of Herbert Hope Risley, whose racial theories have been discredited and are fringe-y stuff.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.201.216 (talk) 12:22, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

I may mention many quotations from Sekhar Banerjee. And I shall. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.194.201.216 (talk) 12:24, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Why the fuck are you 'filibustering'? ∯WBG^converse 16:03, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

It is talk page . I am not an editor of the article . You have done great work. Sekhar Banerjee in most cases also succeeded. Though my comments does not make a sense for him or for his discourse. I just warned of one attitude of the Bengali Hindu Bhadraloks.Your mother tongue is Bengali so you are not unaware of that Bhadraloke mentality . You have mentioned Marichjhappi , it begged for comments from Bhadralokes for many decades . But there was no RS . 117.194.193.252 (talk) 18:08, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Sekhar Banerjee agrees with a Namasudra commentator that the word probably means the best among the Sudras, who were paid obeisance to --- That is a Cheating interpretation that the word is devoid of , it reflects the backwardness of the community , if there be any commentator, he is just a bloody stupid , when all communities of Bengali Hindus avoiding the "sudra" Varna , then this community is finding something to be proud for being "Notionally Enslaved By The Term 'sudra' " is astonishing , more shameful is those Bhadralokes beating The Drums: And Ridiculous is the fact that they cleverly Supressed the Note of Descent in "Vyavastha" and when some Editor not being Bhadraloke Archived the "Namassej Movement " of A web page comprising only a few Hundred Members, for mentioning it in The Wickipedia Article , now Bhadraloke Editors are removing it : It would not be out of place to mention that Sekhar Banerjee Himself mentioned of some documents like "Pataka" ,"Namashudra Suhrid" etc which were published only in few numbers , then at this time the Web page should have been a document ;;

Further there is Book , which mentions the Name as "Namassej Namo" and this name "Namo" was mentioned by Risely far back in 1891 which seems to be the only one both containgin there Mythology and baring the Bashing Apartheid Symbol Of Hindu Varna Apartheid , The Bengali Hindu Bhadraloke miserably failed even after 100 years to mention it ; rather they are engaged in misleading the Stupid communit and the Graeter world by cheating interpretation of the Apartheid term "Sudra" as meaning "Assistant " , really I feel astonished :: There is RS and That is Risely in 1891 and Vyavastha in 1901117.194.195.140 (talk) 14:18, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

I would only like to say that Wikipedia is a fact based site and it does NOT promote racism,casteism or apartheid. Infact majority of websites including Wikipedia would be called "leftist" by the 19th century Victorian standards. Facts are facts(no matter how hard it is to swallow) and most of the article is based of on books of credible historians like SB,N Ray etc. Unless any historian refutes the Sudra tag the current etymology of Namasudra/Namassej and Namassut stands. Also by sticking to facts Wikipedia is only highlighting the casteism prevalent in colonial Bengal among the elites who derided a community/tribe. IMHO it would be racist of Wikipedia if they tried to whitewash the fact that the particular community was not named as Namasudra. Pratik Maitra (talk) 13:58, 17 October 2018 (UTC)Pratik Maitra

Namassej Movement

Of course was launched by an Educated few who opposed "Sudra-Karan" of the community , and if you follow Vyavastha you will find , even Guruchand Thakur penned down his note of descent there . And Again the mythological name Namassej proposed to be from Namas was not just a self-proclaimed one , you have most probably deleted all the links of mythological facts. https://web.archive.org/web/20120527142733/http://namasudra.com/ 117.194.193.112 (talk) 12:32, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

To be too much obsessed with Sekhar Banerjee may be missing the soul of the community .117.194.193.112 (talk) 12:39, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't give a damn about the soul of the community.

As far as my own knowledge goes, Namassej is strictly a self-used term to obsfucate the word sudra, as in Namasudra.And, that is a word, which is strictly used by their own star-chambers and had not got any traction in any academic literature (even excluding Sekhar). Obviously, if you can bring me RSs that use the word, I'll happily reinsert that.

As to Sekhar Banerjee, he is an academic scholar of repute and his work, as to Namasudras are the most reliable source on the subject and his two books on the subject are widely taught across a variety of courses in reputed universities.

And, that you are the same IP-user as in the above thread, how many times do you need to be told that you need to bring Reliable sources? Pending an inability to follow that, I will start deleting all future posts over here.A dose of WP:RGW and WP:IDHT might suffice some well. ∯WBG^converse 13:06, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

The wiki page seems to be in a good shape now and is quite informative. I really applaud your hard work here @WBG.

To the other user I can only say that info without proper sourcing is a serious no-no within the wikipedia community. I admitted previously that Indian literature may not be properly documented in a written format but Wikipedia or any other encyclopedia like Brittanica/Banglapedia does not accept hearsay or unwritten oral sources. A historian/scholar of some repute like S Banerjee has to document and provide scholarly info before any such source is accepted. Hopefully Indian historians can pick up the game and start a deep scholarly journey into the world of the various castes/tribes or communities of India.

Pratik Maitra (talk) 21:41, 20 September 2018 (UTC)Pratik Maitra

Namo and Namas Sreeja

This Varna-Free or Mukta Varna or Avarna community must be mentioned as avarna. Although the 'Sudra' tagged name is mentioned in all discourses , it is definitely 'Apartheid' without any confusion to name a community as 'sudra' and that is not permissible any where on this earth in any democracy . The name ""Namo"" is mentioned far back in 1891 by Risely , most of crude data references of Dr Sekhar Banerjee is from Risely . He himself has not done any survey so far I know . He does not reside in this continent also. He has clearly and confirmedly mentioned this community as "originally a tribe" living outside varna-society and without any land right or any of civili rights of a society .So there is no question of the community belonging originally to any Varna.The ""namo"" has not come from "Namsudra" , it is originated from The Namas Sage Mythology . That is what is said in the name ""Namassej"",actually the "sudra" tag is a part of subtle enslavement policy of the VarnaHindus. They always tried to enslave the Muktavarna or Avarna tribes . The deletion of the Name " Namo"" or "Namassej"( and also the archived movement from refernce) or the original Tribal Status denoted by "avrna' or 'varnafree"/muktavarna is defenitely wrong and not in Dr Sekhar Banerjee's book . Dr Sekhar Banerjee has also not accepted the interpretation " best among the Sudras, who were paid obeisance to"; his interpretation is Namasudra > Namati Sudra ( not Namas + sudra , clearly with a purpose to destroy the Mythology ); it means those who paid obeisance to the sudrs and thus becomes low beneath the sudrs , that is 'chanral' what they still call them in their drwaing room . I have no account . I do not think that should be strict criteria. Any one can go through Sekhar Banerjee . 117.194.207.111 (talk) 09:20, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Does

any one watching this t/p has this book and is willing to send me scanned copies of specific pages?

I have my own doubts, as to it's reliability but, I will take a look. ∯WBG^converse 06:32, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

• Also see this thread as to another book. ∯WBG^converse 06:33, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Sourcing

I see that this article has had a substantial rewrite recently. Unfortunately, masses of it now appears to be unsourced and some of the phrasing appears to be very opinionated. - Sitush (talk) 14:12, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi Sitush. Could you remove the parts that are unsourced and/or opinionated? --regentspark (comment) 15:22, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

That's debatable at present. I don't know if the uncited stuff is actually unsourced or if it is simply down to poor citation style, eg: writing three paragraphs from a source and just putting the cite at the end of the third one. As far as opinionated goes, yes, I could remove or rephrase some of it but other bits would actually have to go back in; notably, there is now no mention of Namassej but there is no doubt that the community use the term and that WBG knows that they do, per their comments further up this page.

I am a bit lost about what to do here. There has been a lot of somewhat poor activity recently but certainly not all of it is bad. I'd rather wait for WBG to respond, I think. - Sitush (talk) 16:50, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Look what has happened to the Etymology section, for example. And, by the way, while I agree that Namassej and Namassut do not seem to appear in a Google search of reliable sources, that doesn't alter the fact that it is used and someone might search for it - a rather awkward situation. - Sitush (talk) 16:55, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Used? Yep. Mentioned any? Nope. So, if we re-insert that, it ought to contradict WP:V.Still, I will search to retrieve any hits in news-article/scholarly work(s) of relevance.∯WBG^converse 17:17, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

And, feel free to copy-edit drastically.That was a first write-up but be pretty certain, that there's no un-sourced stuff.∯WBG^converse 17:17, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Just dropped by to say that the article has been really beefed up and is quite informative since I had last put in my suggestions. All thanks to WBG for putting in such valuable effort into this article. Both WBG and Sitush deserve credit for managing to put up a "factual" article about an Indian community. I really hope that articles on other such tribes and communities of India are also updated and rewritten. Right now most of the wiki articles on Indian communities are very poorly maintained. I hope they get the same treatment. I would also suggest locking up/protecting this article to prevent it from getting vandalized and also sourced stuff converted into shoddily written fan fiction. Pratik Maitra (talk) 13:51, 17 October 2018 (UTC)Pratik Maitra

Umm....

@Sitush:--The massive edits have been executed by me and from Sekhar's primary book on the topic, which I managed to retrieve in near-entirety, courtesy RX.I will insert additional information and the corresponding cites by tomorrow.The unsourced-state had got something to do with my inability to exploit sfn until recent-past.[User:Winged Blades of Godric|∯WBG]]^converse 17:07, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

On a note, supposedly a paragraph comprises of 3 lines and is entirely sourced from the same page of the same book.Do we insert the same cite thrice (after every sentence) or a single cite after the paragraph will suffice?∯WBG^converse 17:21, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Once, at the end of the paragraph. There is no need for consecutive cites of the same source.

I think moving to {{sfn}} or similar may be A Good Thing given the tremendous reliance on a very small number of sources. It will certainly result in much less clutter for editing as well as reading. - Sitush (talk) 17:28, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks:-) I'm thinking of citing, as usual, for now and running an AWB task to convert all to sfn:-)∯WBG^converse 17:34, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I could probably convert the lot in the time it would take you to set that up! One problem at present is a lack of page numbers even where there are citations. Obviously, not every cite suffers from that and probably the page number embedded in the url is correct, but I wouldn't like to bank on that because I've seen plenty of cases where people have randomly copy/pasted urls etc in the past. I rather think you may have been using one of the automated tools for the cites because they share a lot of common irritations, eg: using the date parameter for books (should be year) and using "pages" even when citing a single page (s/b "page"); also, unnecessarily adding some parameters, such as language=EN. I can be easily irritated ;) - Sitush (talk) 17:41, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Anyway, I will leave you to it for now. - Sitush (talk) 17:43, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Sitush, I've been using the Citoid engine to fetch the reference from the Google URL and the performance is sub-optimal.

Whilst, I can assure you that the page number in the URL is correct, I agree with your points and will fix them, by tomorrow:-)

In the meanwhile, I've manged to cite nearly half of my seemingly un-sourced additions and will tend to the rest, as early as possible.

I tried converting the refs to sfn, a few days back in my user-space but that seemed a terrifyingly tedious job:( Any help will be immensely welcome:-)

For now, off to sleep.....Ta! ∯WBG^converse 18:01, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

four-tier ritual varna system link to Apartheid

I will be reverting the edit by Special:Contributions/202.8.117.237 regarding the piped link in the sentence:

"They lived outside the four-tier ritual varna system and thus were outcastes."

This is an incorrect piped link since it links to the Apartheid wikipedia article. The Apartheid wikipedia article is specific to South Africa and is unrelated to the concept of varnas in Hinduism.

I am not debating whether the varna system in Hinduism was discriminatory or not, nor am I defending discriminating against or enslaving people based on their birth or any other specific debates about the merits or demerits of the varna system.

I am open minded to the idea of "Indian apartheid" and also a possible wikipedia article on apartheid in the Indian context. However the current Apartheid article is about South Africa and my revert is purely based on the fact that a link to an article specific to South Africa is factually incorrect and irrelevant to Namasudras.

I request we do not get into an edit war over this and that we discuss any disagreements here in this talk page before any further reverts or undos.

Thanks,

Kvwiki1234 (talk) 07:41, 9 April 2023 (UTC)