Talk:Nicolo Schiro

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Nicolo or Nicola - and Schiro or Schirò

Schiro used and was called both forms of his first name, Nicolo and Nicola in the United States. He was born and naturalized as Nicolo but most accounts of him by other gangsters and government agents call him Nicola. More modern writers use Nicola; but some, like Critchley, use Nicolo. The Italian Wikipedia uses Nicola. I lean toward continuing to use Nicolo but there might be editors who disagree. Note, Joseph Bonanno's autobiography uses Schiro's nickname, "Cola", but I doubt it's well known enough for the article title. Libertybison (talk) 08:50, 10 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Problematic. Given Cola, Nicola would seem the likely choice. There's also the question of the cognome. Schiro seems to be found only on English-language websites (notorious for ignoring diacritics). Surely Schirò is the actual name. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 17:05, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Barefoot through the chollas: I have no doubt the actual name is the one with the accent, but that doesn’t matter, what does is the WP:COMMONAME. There are plenty of names in Italian that aren’t the common names used such as in Nicolò Rizzuto. The accented one should not be used at the Bonanno page. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:23, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at my earlier question from two years ago, it looks like I misstated the case and at the time it was more evenly divided between Nicolo and Nicola than I thought. Of the sources used in the article, the ones that go more in-depth into Schiro's biography - Critchley and Warner - use Nicolo instead of Nicola. A quick check of Schiro's signature using the passport application where the image of him used in the article comes from here (on FamilySearch - which is free to use but you have to register an account) has Schiro signing the original passport application as "Nicolo Schiro" but signing the subsequent request for an extension as "Nicolò Schirò". Libertybison (talk) 05:41, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good find. I've done a good bit of checking, and the only thing nailed down with near certainty is that the family name is Schirò. It's a very common name in the Arbëreshë communities of Sicily; the report that Schirò's paternal grandfather came from one of those, Contessa Entellina, dovetails, and jibes with the evidence in the passport extension. The first name is a bit of a mess. Nicolo seemed suspect from the start (among the many questions, how is it pronounced?), and I've been unable to find Nicolo as an Italian name. Nicola and Nicolò/Niccolò, on the other hand, are common. The passport extension argues for Nicolò while Cola implies Nicola. Ergo non liquet, but Nicolo seems least likely of the three possibilities (For Rizzuto, la Repubblica uses first Nicola, then in resuming with a bit of biography, "Nicola Rizzuto, detto anche Nicolò (o Niccolò)...", while The Independent uses only Nicolò.) (Should be obvious, but foreign-language renditions are not guarantees that a name has been adapted/changed. Enrique Peña Nieto hasn't changed and won't change his name to Enrique Pena Nieto, no matter how often the latter appears in the same sort of diacritic-free English-language publications that are pleased to wish people Feliz ano nuevo 'Happy new anus' when they mean 'Happy new year'. On the other hand, Tom [common name] Perez does seem to have accepted anglicization to the point that his name is not Pérez, but Perez, stress shift and /s/ > /z/ included. As for common name, v. Boomer Esiason. Or more extensively, Ringo Starr. Or, for that matter, Nick Rizzuto.) Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In regards to his surname, "Schiro" is used in all of the English sources. "Nicolò Schirò" is used in the sole Italian source, Luigi Accardo's 1995 book about Camporeale which mentions the war memorial. Also, the Accardo book says (pg. 54) the donation inscription on the back of the statue reads "I Camporealesi d'America, animatore Nicolò Schirò". The Italian biography of Nicola Gentile also mentions Schiro, using "Cola Schirò", see here. Unfortunately, I can't find a copy of this book, either translated or on sale in America which I can use it as a source for information about Schiro for this article. (Google Books doesn't provide a preview). The fact that "Schirò" isn't used in any English-language secondary sources, makes me think that using that form of spelling would run afoul of the WP:COMMONAME policy. I've made changes to clearly indicate that he was born as "Schirò" and used the "Schirò" spelling for his father's surname. In regards to his first name, one English-language source, Waugh, uses the "Nicolò" spelling, see here. Either "Nicolo" or "Nicolò" definitely should be used, not "Nicola". "Nicola" is definitely used less than "Nicolo/ò". The sources that use "Nicola" seem to, generally, have less information about Schiro and usually based on the spelling in the 1912-14 Secret Service reports written based on their informant, Salvatore Clemente in the Morello gang. The only time where a document that should be connected to Schiro himself uses the "Nicola" name that I could find is his 1924 New York City voter listing, see here (the 432 Marcy Ave. address is linked to him in the Warner article). I don't think the "Cola" nickname in and of itself can be used as evidence for a "Nicola" derivation, several different factors can come into play when coining a nickname. Libertybison (talk) 21:15, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say you've done a good job of finding a work-around in a difficult situation. You've made it clear that his family name really is Schirò, and one of these days something may turn up that nails down Nicola or Nicolò. Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 22:44, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nicola Gentile biography

Nicola Gentile's Italian language biography mentions Schiro, but I can't seem to find a copy for sale or an English translation of it. Google Books also doesn't have a preview of it, see here. So, if anybody has access to a copy and can read Italian, the information in it can fill a hole in this article. Libertybison (talk) 21:27, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

1924 voter list

I found this 1924 NYC voter listing for Schiro (at 432 Marcy Ave.), on the Internet Archive website as the result of an earlier talk page discussion. I initially also posted in the External links section. On second thought, I think it may not be significant enough to place it there and will remove it. But just in case a future editor disagrees, I'm posting the link here. Libertybison (talk) 02:10, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Camporeale WWI memorial

I found a transcription of the inscription of the Camporeale WWI memorial, which was helped to be built by Schiro, on a what appears to be a website run by the commune. You can see the webpage, here. Does anybody think it would be acceptable for an external link based on the webpage's text being written in Italian and its wording being copied from a book (which is already used as a source in the article)? Libertybison (talk) 09:08, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added it to the relevant sentence in the article. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:50, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

GA?

@Libertybison: Seeing as you are the main contributor to this article, you ever think of nominating this for GA? It looks to meet the standard. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 14:39, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have no interest in nominating this article for a GA. I've not been as active on Wikipedia since the pandemic and wouldn't have enough time to dedicate to the process. Also prior to the pandemic, I ordered a copy of Nicola Gentile's autobiography from Italy to see if it had any useful material to add to the Schiro and Salvatore D'Aquila articles. But that project was sidelined, for now, due the pandemic considerations/obligations that take up too much of my time in my off- Wikipedia life. Libertybison (talk) 18:18, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. Hope you stay well and can resume your projects once things pick up again. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:28, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]