Talk:Orthodox Church

This page was nominated at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion on 22 June 2020. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

On 6 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Orthodox Church (disambiguation). The result of the discussion was not moved.

Untitled

This page has alternated between being a redirect and being a disambiguation page. I have changed it back to being a disambig after it had spent some time as a redirect; partly I did this as it had been changed from disambig to redirect by a "minor" edit, without changes to the talk page, which crossed the borderline between being bold and being reckless, especially since the Eastern Orthodox Church is not the only Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church is in fact a major denomination of Christianity. If this becomes a disambig, it's worth keeping reference to Western Orthodoxy and Assyrian Orthodoxy too. If it becomes a redirect, it should really be to Orthodox Christianity, not Eastern Orthodox Church which is just one example of Orthodox Christianity. However, I think that it is worth maintaining this as a separate disambig page since not all churches with "Orthodox" in their name fall into what is normally described as Orthodox Christianity (I am thinking in particular of some of the Continuing Anglican, Old Catholic etc churches). Further, "Orthodox Christianity" suffers from a mild NPOV problem in that some of the movements there may actually be characterised or described as "hererodox"! This page at least can refer to churches that describe themselves, or are commonly described as, "Orthodox", without suffering from a similar argument. TheGrappler 13:41, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Restructuring as a dab page

Following the wiki guidelines, I've simplified the page and removed excess explanation. I removed the following paragraph:

This is the usual meaning of the unqualified term "Orthodox Church", and the Church is significantly larger than Oriental and Assyrian Orthodoxy. The Latin West split from Eastern Christianity in 1054. The first seven ecumenical councils are all recognised, so the Chalcedonian Creed is accepted.Orthodox church is a group or communion of independent churches.

It was not clear what "This" referred to--the "Eastern Orthodox Church" as a whole? Next to the correct link, the first line could be useful. The rest of the paragraph belongs in an actual article.

I also removed the following, which followed "Eritrean Orthodox Church":

The movement schismed from the rest of Christianity in the 5th century, after refusing to recognise the Christological dogmas of the Council of Chalcedon of 451 AD, believing them to be tantamount to Nestorian dualism. Only the first three ecumenical councils are recognised, up to the Council of Ephesus. It is sometimes described as non-Chalcedonian; its Christology of miaphysitism was interpreted by other Christians as the heresy of monophysitism, that Christ had only one nature.

This also seems to belong in an article, but again I am not sure which specific group was meant by "the movement." --Iggle 07:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

change to redirect?

The lists on this page are duplicated in other places such as Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, and Eastern Christianity. Would it be agreeable to make this a redirect to Orthodox Christianity, a disambiguation page with links to the foregoing? Chonak 07:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation

Given that there are currently over 1,200 links to Orthodox Church, I've restored the buried history of this page, that was buried when Eastern Orthodox Church was temporarily deemed to be the primary topic. Clearly, there is no consensus on this matter, and when there is no consensus the default should always be to disambiguate – there needs to be a strong consensus to establish a primary topic. But clearly, "Orthodox Church" never could be interpreted to mean Orthodox (album), so it will be a lot easier to disambiguate links if this doesn't redirect to Orthodox. Links to this are already partially disambiguated to an Orthodox Church. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:24, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Wbm1058: I support this decision. However, I think a RfC should have been made before doing the changes you, Wbm1058 and @Omnipaedista:, made. Veverve (talk) 18:41, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See also the former List of Orthodox denominations and Orthodox Communion, which appear to content forks of this. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:58, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

and also the former Orthodox Church (disambiguation), which I just retargeted to here. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:48, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

and also the former Orthodox Churches. – wbm1058 (talk) 20:01, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe an RfC should have been created. On the other hand, this 2010 edit was a controversial change on its own, not discussed on this talk page. Actually the latest consensus is not in favor of the 2010 edit: see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 30#Orthodox Church. --Omnipaedista (talk) 19:10, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That 2010 move discussion is at Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church/Archive 7#Title. It was conducted at Talk:Orthodox Church, but then the discussion moved with the page. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:30, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected. But still the result of that 2010 discussion was challenged in the relevant 2020 discussion: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 June 30#Orthodox Church. --Omnipaedista (talk) 20:14, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The 2010 move reversed a 2009 discussion at Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church/Archive 6#Requested move which moved Eastern Orthodox Church to Orthodox Church. – wbm1058 (talk) 20:31, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So, my actions were a direct reaction to Omnipaedista's decision, as they left things in an unstable configuration which threw a flag I patrol for. I noted that they linked to two discussions in their edit summary. I recognize that getting this title stabilized may not be easy. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:13, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Wbm1058: @Omnipaedista: what do you think of the current look of the page? Veverve (talk) 20:33, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with what you're doing; I have no particular knowledge or interest in the topic. Noting the recent Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 15#Orthodox Christian consensus decided Eastern Orthodox Church wasn't the primary topic (which I see as the main point of contention) but I don't think there was a conscious intention to broaden the ambiguity to anything "Orthodox". I see that "Christian" implies "Church" and "Church" implies "Christian" so I think the "Christian" redirects should be retargeted to here as well. – wbm1058 (talk) 22:06, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Wbm1058: You have turned the article into a SIA. However, this article has led for more than 10 years to the Eastern Orthodox Church article. I think the Orthodox Church article should be considered a disambiguation page until most "Orthodox Church" hyperlinks are disambiguated. Veverve (talk) 12:52, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was looking at the ambiguous link in the Eastern Orthodox Church article:

"The Archdiocesan Cathedral of the Holy Trinity on New York City's Upper East Side is the largest Orthodox Christian church in the Western Hemisphere."

Does that statement mean or is it larger than any Oriental Orthodox Churches as well, or is it just the largest Eastern Orthodox Church meaning there may be an Oriental Orthodox church which is larger? wbm1058 (talk) 13:11, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will try to explain it as best as I can. The Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches are both called "Orthodox". However, their name does not mean that they are two church which practice each a different forl of a common Christianity which would be "Orthodoxy". They are not like Reformed Church in America and the Evangelical Presbyterian Church of Ukraine which are two different churches practicing Reformed Christianity. Both Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox Churches use the term "Orthodox" because they claim to be the "church of truth" (orthodox means "on the right path", "on the right doctrine"), but there is not a single current from which they split, rather they both are different currents. Veverve (talk) 13:42, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Then to make a sports analogy, this article may be sort of analogous to football. There is one major commonality, a ball – or term used by some Christians. But not that much else. Whether this article could possibly be turned into a WP:Broad-concept article like football, I don't know, but it's not something I'm inclined to try. So from your response, I take it that of course that means largest Eastern Orthodox Church. Since that's the topic of that article, I just removed the link. I'll work on link disambiguation some more to get a sense of how easy or hard this is for someone with limited familiarity with the topic to do. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:15, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am happy with the current state of the page; this page should definitely be a SIA. --Omnipaedista (talk) 16:25, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can see the need for disambiguation. Every once in a while I run into one of these cases where there's a not-quite-primary topic with hundreds of links that are allowed to fester because nobody wants to do the work. Last one I recall was Natural History Museum, where Natural History Museum, London was the not-quite-primary topic. Most of these, particularly about places in or near Russia, should be disambiguated to Eastern Orthodox. Where the term is used in a more general sense I'm disambiguating by linking to Orthodoxy#Christianity (the closest we have to a broad-concept article), such as in the Basel, Switzerland article. – wbm1058 (talk) 12:53, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation isn't always that easy. For example, Kristiansand#Christianity: "There is a Catholic church in Kvadraturen, St. Ansgar's Church. At Slettheia, there is a Latter-day Saint church and at Tinnheia, there is an Orthodox church." See articles about Eastern Orthodoxy in Norway and Oriental Orthodoxy in Norway. Tinnheia has a high percentage of immigrants, but where did most of them come from? I might find answers with further research, but if it takes me this long to disambiguate just one of hundreds of links, this is going to be a long slog. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:02, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly reducing the list

@BD2412: I agree with @Somerby:'s change; I think this version should be restored. Veverve (talk) 23:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A disambiguation page requires that the terms be unrelated. "Orthodox Church" is not at all an ambiguous term like "Mercury" (which can be a planet, or a god, or a car); it is a collection of related concepts that can be presented as an index. BD2412 T 23:57, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it can designate three different Christian denominations, so I think the page should be a DAB. Veverve (talk) 23:59, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nonetheless, these are not unrelated concepts. Note, also, that per Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Preparation, you must fix the incoming links to the page before changing an existing title to a disambiguation page. BD2412 T 00:56, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They are not urelated in the same sense that Old Catholic Church and Catholic Church are not unrelated. Both are different Christian denominations who happen to share most of their name and an important adjective. As for fixing all the hyperlinks, can we not leave it to those who use specific tools to do that over the years after we turn the page into a DAB? It might be a bit unorthodox, but such a huge task might justify it. Veverve (talk) 01:49, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably, the disambiguation of readily confused topics would best be undertaken by editors with knowledge of those topics. In any case, the guideline states the preference for this work to be done before the page is moved or reconfigured. BD2412 T 02:34, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

With a page like Mercury, where the topics are in different subject areas, there's a case for leaving disambiguation to the disambiguators. It may be considered impolite, like cooking a meal and leaving a pile of pans for others to clean, but there's a case for it. However, if the alternatives are so similar that only an expert can reliably distinguish them, as here, it's better for those experts to do the work. Certes (talk) 12:13, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coming here from WP:DPL, this is my take:

whether to make this a DAB or keep it an SIA should be decided on its own merits. I'd recommend starting a more comprehensive discussion and asking for input from e.g. WP:CHRISTIANITY.
even if the guideline prefers links to be fixed before creating the dabpage, that would obviously be an unnecessarily excruciating task, since the tools only work on disambiguation pages. However, it's nonsense to then just leave the task to "those who use" those tools; it's exceedingly simple to install and use DisamAssist, and while this kind of cleanup is always a team effort, I would expect those proposing the change to take the lead. Lennart97 (talk) 09:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying now to disambiguate all the links. After I finish, I will change a title to a disambiguation page. --Northumber (talk) 17:45, 13 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Northumber:, It's already been suggested a couple of times at least that you open an Rfc here, to see if this should have been turned into a disambig page. In this edit at the article, you claimed that there is consensus here on this Talk page for turning the article into a DAB page, but I'm afraid I don't see that consensus. My initial sense is it should not be a DAB page, based on BD2412 and Certes, and I can see the point of having it be a set index article.

I'll notify the project at least so we can get some more input, perhaps if there's a clear consensus it won't be necessary to have the Rfc, and you can then carry on with what you were doing. But perhaps you could hold off making any more changes to links to Orthodox Church until we get some feedback from other editors here? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 08:25, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Listed at: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard. Mathglot (talk) 08:34, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:Encyclopedic title space need to be reserved for encyclopedic articles. That is primary job of encyclopedia. I am strongly opposed to giving encyclopedic title space to disambiguation pages where allocating to encyclopedic article is possible. Disambiguation titles need to be noted in bracket as disambiguation pages.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Our policy is to give the base name to the primary topic if there is one. The primary topic here may be a short broad-concept article on the Orthodox Church[es], prominently linking the several specific churches which use the title after describing features shared by them all. That might serve the reader better than a plain list such as a disambiguation page or set index article. Certes (talk) 15:19, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As I explained above, there is no broad topic this page covers. Also, as @Wbm1058: noted in April 2021, the word "Orthodox Church" is used very inconsistently throughout Wikipedia which makes the DAB neessary. Veverve (talk) 16:03, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Certes, as far as I know there is no feature shared by Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Churches and Orthodox Presbyterian Church, only the title similarity. The BCA is Eastern Christianity but it includes not only Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Churches but also Eastern Catholic Churches and Eastern Protestant churches --Northumber (talk) 16:43, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
A broad-concept article would probably best sit at the title Orthodox churches. Feel free to usurp that redirect to start such an article, or use Draft:Orthodox churches to get started if you wish to avoid an edit war before your new article is "ready for prime time" (just ask me or another admin to help you move your draft over the top of the redirect). Orthodox Presbyterian Church would not be part of the broad concept because that's a Presbyterian church, not an Orthodox church. As to the "feature shared by" the other two, look at their history and how they were started. But perhaps Orthodoxy already covers this. That article says "The Eastern Orthodox Church adheres to the orthodoxy portrayed mainly in the first seven ecumenical councils, while the Oriental Orthodox Churches define their orthodoxy as based on the first three ecumenical councils alone." So maybe retarget Orthodox churches to Orthodoxy. This page should remain a disambiguation, and I'm happy to see that someone else picked up the ball I intentionally dropped back on April Fools Day (in the last section above). "Orthodox Church" is the ambiguous proper name of a specific church, and not a broad concept which would be indicated by lower-casing "church". – wbm1058 (talk) 17:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The thing is, each end every denomination of all religions (and some Marxists, but they were never referred to as a "church" so they are not relevant) considers itself to follow in its own way Orthodoxy, i.e. the right doctine when it comes to religion. Therefore, I would strongly disadvise retarget[ing] Orthodox churches to Orthodoxy. Veverve (talk) 18:28, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But not every denomination makes Orthodoxy a defining concept; i.e. part of their name. Orthodoxy is a broader concept; the applicable section is Orthodoxy § Christianity. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:39, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Distilling some of the main points in this section and the #Disambiguation section above, I'm making a proposal for how to proceed in the section below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathglot (talk • contribs) 01:45, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: both Set index and disambig pages

Proposal: we should end up with both a Set index article, and a disambig page. Here's how I think that should happen:

There should be both a disambig (probably at the current title, but not with the current rev history), and a Set index article, probably with the title Orthodox churches and retaining the article history of this page. If accepted, this would mean:

Current article WP:MOVEs to Orthodox churches restored from some previous rev (possibly rev. 1055809487 of 23:03, 17 November 2021) and expanded as a SIA from that point (this blows away a redirect with no important history)
A brand new disambig page is created at the name 'Orthodox Church' (which would be available after #1), with content pasted from rev 1060493996 of this article (or similar)

Some advantages of this scheme, are:

the SIA retains most of the content, and the history of how it got there
the SIA does *not* have to wait for any links in other articles to be fixed first; it can be done now.
the DAB creation in #2 can be performed at one's leisure, after due dilegence has been done with links while #1 is going on, after it, or whenever.

Regarding the development of the SIA, I think it should evolve beyond where it ever was here, and not be a simple list, and could be developed in various ways. My first thought is a hierarchical list somewhat like the #Other section in rev. 1055809487 (here), but with each entry listed having a brief description (a sentence to a paragraph) as a list article would have—which is fine and within bounds for a SIA—and wikilinked to the main article. (Or, for paragraph-long items, with {{Main}} or {{Further}} links at section top.) It should also contain one (or more) of the hierarchical denomination charts available, such as c:File:Major denominational groups and heresies within Christianity.svg, c:File:Historical Branches and Sects of Christianity.png, c:File:Christianity_major_branches.svg or any of the many diagrams available in Commons. As an intro section at the top, I'd paste a copy of Orthodoxy § Christianity (per Wbm1058's suggestion), possibly thinned a bit.

I'm shamelessly stealing most of these ideas from those who have contributed before me, so thanks for that; I see my role here as organizing or focusing the best of those into a concrete proposal we can discuss. I'm not structuring this as an Rfc because I see this as still in the brainstorming stage, and it may morph based on discussion. If an Rfc is needed (hoping it won't), we can figure out what it should be about and how to word it later. Mathglot (talk) 01:44, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure who's watching, so apologies if this notification is unwanted:@Wbm1058, Veverve, Certes, Bookku, BD2412, Lennart97, and Omnipaedista: Mathglot (talk) 01:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Is there really a collection of ambiguous topics here, rather than variations on a specific theme? BD2412 T 02:01, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@BD2412: I understand your comment to mean, "yes to a SIA, but no to a disambig page", is that correct? If so, I don't have an answer, but interested to see what others say. Mathglot (talk) 02:04, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's really a question, not a comment. If there is a real ambiguity that can be articulated here, a disambiguation page may be appropriate (presuming, also, that there is no primary topic of the term). BD2412 T 02:10, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm content with the current simple dab page. One could argue that "Orthodox Church" is a broad concept but trying to force a matter of religion to be a broad concept is asking for trouble. The Eastern people will claim that "Orthodox Church" unambiguously means what we call Eastern and that's the primary topic. The Oriental church objects to that. We've been there, done that with trying to force a primary topic. Both churches will object to a broad-concept article that risks conflating each with the other. Our broad concept is Orthodoxy; that's been stable. Now as to resurrecting the "set index" we had here, I think that's another fork of the old list articles that were merged away. See my comment below. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:33, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Your proposal confuses me. Keep it simple. I don't think what you're aiming for is what we conventionally call a "set index", and I don't think you should label it as such. There was a List of Orthodox denominations but that was SPLIT to List of Eastern Orthodox denominations, List of Oriental Orthodox denominations, and Orthodox Church organization and Communion of the Western Orthodox Churches. – wbm1058 (talk) 02:08, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think even if there was ever a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the page should be a DAB, because

1) most readers do not know anything about those Byzantine (no pun intended) disputes between churches,

2) most WP users do not know anything either; sometimes, they will read an article about e.g. how X% of the population is "Orthodox Christians" in an area (examples of media caling E. Orthodox and O. Orthodox "Orthodox": [1] (O. O.), [2] (E. O.)) and will link the word to "Orthodox church" which is a problem. I had made the same argument for the RM at Talk:Code of Canon Law#Requested move 23 February 2021. Veverve (talk) 07:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes to a disambiguation page. The experts feel that a BCA is inappropriate, so a dab is second choice. A SIA is for when a dab wouldn't work because some entries have no WP:DABMENTION. I don't think we need that here. If we do, then it should be clearly labelled as something like List of orthodox churches, with the dab at Orthodox Church and synonyms redirecting to the dab. If we're considering a SIA because some church articles have a doubtful claim to a dab entry, put them in See also. Certes (talk) 12:24, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 6 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~Styyx^Talk? 17:50, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Orthodox Church → Orthodox Church (disambiguation) – Although 'Orthodox Church' may refer not only to the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church is the primary topic for this term. A topic is primary for 'Orthodox Church' with respect to usage because it is much more likely be the topic sought. All three tools prove this:

Wikipedia article traffic statistics.
Usage in English reliable sources.
Count of the incoming wikilinks from Special:WhatLinksHere Heanor (talk) 14:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. No such user (talk) 12:37, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose: most WP users do not know the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy which creates errors in the incoming hyperlinks; this was namely pointed out by wbm1058 on this talk page at 14:02, 1 April 2021. See also my previous arguments above, here (at 3:42, 31 March 2021) and here (at 07:53, 17 December 2021). Furthermore, media and most publications indiscriminately use "Orthodox" to refer sometimes to OOrthodoxy, sometimes to EOrthodoxy; for example the Pew Research Center uses the same "Orthodox" word here (OOrthodox) and here (EOrthodox) in articles which have been published the same month.

I am also pinging those who have previously discussed the issue at this very talk page: @Omnipaedista and Wbm1058:. Veverve (talk) 14:35, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Agree that Eastern Orthodox Church is the clear primary redirect here. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:52, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In 2010 after lengthy discussion Orthodox Church moved to Eastern Orthodox Church. I think we should see much more participation here in order to reverse that consensus. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:34, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Moving will add needless confusion and will not reflect the topic as it is used in the real world (to the shared use of the term Orthodox churches which simply isn't the specific reference to EOrthodoxy). Mesfin (talk) 15:38, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. An unqualified "Orthodox Church" is most likely going to refer to the EOC, but there are significant real differences. I would prefer a WP:CONCEPTDAB here instead about the term "Orthodox Church". Red Slash 22:23, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"List of Orthodox churches" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect List of Orthodox churches has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 14 § List of Orthodox churches until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 14:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"List of Orthodox Churches" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect List of Orthodox Churches has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 April 14 § List of Orthodox Churches until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 14:25, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]