Talk:Peerage of Ireland
|WikiProject Ireland||(Rated List-class, Mid-importance)|
shouldn't a list of Irish peers only contain, you know, Irish peers, and the Gaelic nobles be moved to a different page? john 11:14, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
No. I think they should be here. There have recognition from the Chief Herald of Ireland and many also have peerages from the Kingdom of Ireland and the UK of GB and I. The O'Conor Don, for example, was given pride of place as the premier "Irish peer" at the coronation of King Edward VII. FearÉIREANN 23:38, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Hmm...well, they're obviously members of the Irish nobility, but the page is specifically a list of "peers"...so I don't know...The explanatory material should certainly be clearer, though. john 02:46, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I think that a page could be made on "Gaelic Nobility," for instance, because the term Peerage does not seem to properly apply to those who are not peers. By the way, is it agreeable if the (in my humble opinion neater) format used in Peerage of England and Peerage of Scotland be applied here? -- Lord Emsworth 19:26, Dec 21, 2003 (UTC)
I have no objection, but it would mean we'd lose some information, wouldn't it? I created the other two pages after working through this one. john 01:03, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)
The article states: "This list covers peerages possessed by Irish people from any of the three categories. The title is listed first, followed by famous figures associated with the family beneath. It does not include non-Irish people awarded Irish titles; for example, the Duke of Connaught, son of Queen Victoria." I don't think that "Peerage of Ireland" is the right place to fulfil such a requirement. Instead, I deem that a page, either Gaelic Nobility or Irish Nobility be used for the same, and that the Peerages of England, Scotland and Ireland be similar in format and in purpose. -- Lord Emsworth 11:38, Dec 22, 2003 (UTC)
- Irish nobility would be a good place for this, I'd think, and yeah, then we can make the Peerage of Ireland more standardized. john 00:34, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Republic of Ireland
What is the present-day position of Irish peers in the eyes of the Republic of Ireland? Specifically:
- What proportion of the peers live in the Republic (as opposed to in the UK or abroad)?
- Of those living in the republic, do they typically hold Irish or UK passports? If the former, do the passports include their titles or only their personal names?
- If there were a dispute over the descent of an Irish peerage, where would it be decided?
Thanks. Doops 20:54, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I could not give you an exact number relating to your first question. I can, however, accurately state that historically, many Irish peers have had nothing to do with Ireland; rather, many (or perhaps even most) were granted Irish peerage dignities so that they would not flood the House of Lords. If you have the time, you may check Burke's Peerage, which gives the addresses of all peers. Your second question, and perhaps also your first question, may be addressed in this article (1995).
- Well, I looked a number of them up in the online Burke's (insofar as possible without registering), and I discovered several whose listed residence was in the republic, but whose CV included stints at Eton and/or in the British military. Doops 22:57, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
After the Union of 1801, the House of Lords (of the United Kingdom) assumed jurisdiction over Irish peerage disputes, even though Irish were not automatically entitled to seats in that House. The House of Lords continued to retain jurisdiction after 1922; see the Standing Orders of the House of Lords. In practice, the matter is resolved not by the whole House, but by the Privileges Committee. (Note: Theoretically, the Sovereign, as fons honorum or fount of honour, determines all disputes relating to peerages or other dignities, whether English, Scottish or Irish. It is, however, well-established that the Sovereign and his or her ministers would consult the House of Lords if there is any dispute over a Peerage. The Sovereign could in theory disregard the House of Lords entirely, but in practice would not.) -- Emsworth 20:26, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I know that Lyon is, for all practical purposes, the arbiter of peerage disputes in Scotland. He would determine which individual is entitled to the deceased peer's arms undifferenced; the House of Lords would just abide by his decision. But I do not believe that the Earl Marshal or Garter have similar functions in England; I would imagine that the same would apply to Ulster. -- Emsworth 22:20, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- On one of the three questions - Irish law specifically allows for a choice between using the "peer name" or the ordinary first + family name combination. SeoR 11:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Ireland does not recognise peerages as anything more than a form of name, so someone calling himself the Duke of Connacht would be treated the same if he called himself John Smith or the Guru of Eternal Happiness.Cavort (talk) 09:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
some extinct titles have been haphazardly added. Please don't do this - this page was meant to be a list of currently extant Irish peerdoms. the List of dukedoms, etc. pages list all the extinct titles. john k 20:28, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
People keep trying to bring the Republic of Ireland into this issue - it's irrelevant. These titles were created by a state - either the Kingdom of Ireland, or the state into which it merged, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The legal successor to that state is the current United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Peerages are a legal concept, not a territorial one, and so are unaffected by territorial movements. Indeed, they continue to be treated by the United Kingdom in exactly the same way as they were before. They may refer to places outside the UK, but that no more removes them from the UK's jurisdiction as it does the Earl of Albemarle. And the Republic of Ireland has never purported to have any control over Irish peerages - instead it merely recognises that they exist, as do many states recognise foreign titles held by its citizens. People seem to be under the impression that peerages are somehow inextricably linked to the place to which they refer, and that when that place changes jurisdiction, so does the title. This is simply a gross misunderstanding of the law. (And, in any event, it could only ever hope to apply to places outside the UK - I can't even begin to see how Irish law could have any bearing on the Marquess of Londonderry or the Earl of Antrim.) Proteus (Talk) 17:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
- Entirely agree with you. Though as a matter of human interest, it would be good if the article got into how these titles operate in indepdent Ireland today (e.g. does the Government refer to persons by their titles etc). I think it touches on it but its a topic people are naturally interested to understand. Frenchmalawi (talk) 01:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
- As to the original quote from nearly 3 years ago, I can't remember anyone trying to bring RoI into the issue. But agree with FrenchMalawi as to the interest in a section to describe how the titles operate in Ireland today. FWIW, from my own experience, people are still referred to by their titles. --HighKing (talk) 23:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Factually wrong claim
The claim that "titles of peerage being regarded as merely courtesy titles" in the Republic of Ireland is factually wrong. The constitution says they cannot be created or accepted, but it is silent on the status of those already in existence. Nor does any law state they are merely courtesy titles. In some republics it is explicitly stated in law or in a constitution that a peerage is abolished. Ireland's law does not state that. So they are in a limbo. They are not a creation of the state, and not abolished by the state, nor is their status defined by the state. They just are there. Someone here keeps misinterpreting the constitution and reading into it something that it very definitely does not say. John Hearne, its author, working under de Valera, deliberately left them in that limbo state. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 00:20, 26 August 2015 (UTC)